Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster

[jameswilliamogle]

Wizard gets most of that stuff for free while the UMD fellow has to spend decent amounts of wealth for this and he really has to succeed with his first go at it.

Yes, but only once - Contact Other Plane (What year should I have this prep'd, what month, what day, yada yada).  The one fight is all that is necessary.  And we can't really exclude the wealth investment required by the Wizard (yes, infinite money tricks, Binder has them, too, and I think we need to exclude both sides for that).

Anyways, I do thank the further discussion.  Still, everyone is caster-centric, which I find biased.  But, oh well.

Just trying to shoot down ideas I think won't work. Haven't really followed the thread, so I had to start somewhere, I don't really care who wins.

My thought / hope was that Wizard beats a non-Wizard trick, then the community works to try to foil that, then the community tries back and forth.  So far, the "full strength" OP people have all been only on the Wizard side.

The goal is to make the deadliest non-Wizard vs. the most defensive Wizard.

[Tshern]

Infinite wealth is indeed something I'd leave out of the debate. If we get to the realm of infinities, this entire discussion loses all value. And yes, if the Binder succeeds with his first try, he easily has the cash, but the problem is it might be more than difficult to get another try.

Basically what we need for the noncaster is a way to either trigger a lot of the Wizard contingencies rendering a lot of his defenses useless or somehow punch through the contingencies with them ever springing off. Or am I completely mistaken here?

[jseah]

The point about single shot is that if that shot fails and the wizard wasn't killed permanently, he'll be back for revenge now that he knows who you are.  And when the wizard has specific information, the binder probably won't have to worry about a second chance. 

Think of it as the assassin has some sponsor backing his attempt. 

[JaronK]

The point with the Spellthief/Love's Pain method is to have an even faster demiplane, so that the Wizard can't respond by doing anything else... you have thousands of actions to his one.  Bypassing the Contact Any Plane thing would of course be necessary, so we've got to figure out a way around that one.

JaronK

[Tshern]

Crafted contingency to Shapechange into a Zodar when any non-bludgeoning damage hits. Problem solved and the Wizard creates another, even faster demiplane.

[jameswilliamogle]

Basically what we need for the noncaster is a way to either trigger a lot of the Wizard contingencies rendering a lot of his defenses useless or somehow punch through the contingencies with them ever springing off. Or am I completely mistaken here?

I think that's possible.  I was thinking about possible using ridiculous (and I mean RIDICULOUS) knowledge check bonuses combined with Divinations to basically get the exact contingencies on the caster, then to counter them one by one w/ your own contingencies.

[jseah]

Bypassing Contact Other Plane when both sides have it depends on who has a better algorithm of questions.  Which is out of scope of this challenge.  

Besides weird question design, we can assume that both sides worded their Contact Other Plane questions in such a way that there was no way to answer them without violating the condition of the other.  (answering one means that the other guy has no possible answer that will allow him to win, and gods don't take sides for the purposes of this challenge)
Therefore both sides get null answers and no information, from any ability involving divination effects (it's too easy to word an algorithm that won't trip a Vecna-Blooded's ability.  The assassin has to take into account that the wizard could be a Vecna-Blooded too, even though we know he isn't)

Furthermore, I propose that all open-ended Divination effects be completely excluded from even the TO challenge for similar reasons.  Unless one side can demonstrate that they have significantly more uses of it than the other.  (say at 10 times more uses, if one side doesn't have these things, then the other can use it without problems)
IE. Anything that looks forward into time doesn't work if the other guy uses it also.  

It doesn't prevent the Radar though... which isn't a time-dependent trick.  

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EDIT: keep in mind the wizard can use nicely worded Divinations to get your contingencies too.  Therefore see above. 

[Tshern]

Hypercognition or Metafaculty up for a task like that? Combining those with Knowledge checks (Guidance of the avatar, Divine insight, Scrolls of Uncertain Provenance, Skill focuses that can be changed away with Abyssal retraining later, whatever the Complete Champion spell is that allows taking 20 once, masterwork tools...) might work. Boosting Knowledge checks with Sadism and such might be a bit too much though.

   *  Its name, race, alignment, and character class.
    * A general estimate of its level or Hit Dice: low (5 HD or lower), medium (6 to 11 HD), high (12 to 20 HD), very high (21 HD to 40 HD), or deific (41 HD or higher).
    * Its location (including place of residence, town, country, world, and plane of existence).
   * Significant items currently in its possession.
    * Any significant activities or actions the creature has undertaken in the previous 8 hours, including details such as locales traveled through, the names or races of those the creature fought, spells it cast, items it acquired, and items it left behind (including the location of those items).
    * A current mental view of the creature, as described in the remote viewing power, which you can maintain for up to 1 minute per level.

Metafaculty can defeat spells, powers, and special abilities such as screen or mind blank (or even a wish spell) that normally obscure clairsentience powers. You can attempt a caster level check (DC 6 + caster level of the creator of the obscuring effect) to defeat these sorts of otherwise impervious defenses.

What we have here is a way to find out every single buff the Wizard has cast during the last eight hours.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The problem with love's pain is that you don't really have enough information for mindrape to make a credible infatuation.  Surely there are plenty of wizards named gandalf across the planes with tall, pointy hats, and big bushy gray beards, so without enough information you can't really say which one the target is in love with.

[jameswilliamogle]

What we have here is a way to find out every single buff the Wizard has cast during the last eight hours.

Awesome find!  I totally forget about the high-level psionic stuff...

OK, well now we definitely have a method to get the location and last 8 hour buffs, and its significant items.  Could also be done via hiring a psion, too.  Nice...

[JaronK]

Well, assuming you're trying to kill this Wizard, you must know something about him.  I mean, why are you trying to kill him specifically?  Whatever that reason is, that's what you must make the commoner love.

JaronK

[The_Mad_Linguist]

But are they actually in love with the wizard, or in love with someone extremely similar to the wizard?  Remember, this is an infinite multiverse, so I don't think that a vague description narrows it down enough.  I could even see an argument that you now qualify, since the person they love is really the creation of your mind, just like how if Lois lane got love's pained Clark Kent would still get hurt even when he isn't acting as Superman

[Negative Zero]

Well, if it's a truly 'infinite' multiverse, then the number of wizards that are exactly the same as this one should also be infinite.

I'd like to point out that Metafaculty's 'Items on the Wizard's person' thing would tell you about all of his contingencies except the one cast via the spell. Don't forget that the feat Craft Contingent Spell creates items.

[The Lurker]

That's a weaksauce wizard build...

The builds were intentionally kept generic and without PrCs (except for the Loremaster alternative I made) and alternative class features, just so that people couldn't argue that it wasn't really the wizard that beat them, it was X PrC or Y ACF.

It was a tongue in cheek way to look at different ways to make the challenge harder.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well, if it's a truly 'infinite' multiverse, then the number of wizards that are exactly the same as this one should also be infinite.

No, because there is only one "wizard that I personally saw at the bar last night".

[ErhnamDJ]

Well, if it's a truly 'infinite' multiverse, then the number of wizards that are exactly the same as this one should also be infinite.

No, because there is only one "wizard that I personally saw at the bar last night".

Unless the sweet thing that served your drinks had a wizard level. Or that guy in the corner booth, or. . . .

[SorO_Lost]

Skip the nitpicking.

A. Classes are a metagame aspect, the serving wrench that looked like a hooker is never a wizard to a PC until they wipe out a book and cast some spells.
B.  I cannot call you ErhnamDJ because someone else has that name so therefore I cannot talk about you. WTF.

That 'one guy in the corner' works so long as you know who you meant when you used the power/spell.

[ErhnamDJ]

Skip the nitpicking.

A. Classes are a metagame aspect, the serving wrench that looked like a hooker is never a wizard to a PC until they wipe out a book and cast some spells.

Being a wizard is not a metagame concept.

B.  I cannot call you ErhnamDJ because someone else has that name so therefore I cannot talk about you. WTF.

I've used this name over at the Wizards boards since '03. Perhaps someone is attempting to impersonate me? 

That 'one guy in the corner' works so long as you know who you meant when you used the power/spell.

Probably. I suppose it depends on who these higher powers are the spell contacts (though we really know it is the DM).

[Tshern]

What we have here is a way to find out every single buff the Wizard has cast during the last eight hours.

Awesome find!  I totally forget about the high-level psionic stuff...

OK, well now we definitely have a method to get the location and last 8 hour buffs, and its significant items.  Could also be done via hiring a psion, too.  Nice...

Aye. When I was a 3.5 beginner and XPH came out, a friend of mine always reminded me of those two powers and now I am doing the same.

[jseah]

You don't need metafaculty. 

A cleverly worded Contact Other Plane / Divination spell will get you the same results.  It's only when asking about the future that it screws up if two people ask. 

It is nice to have metafaculty anyway. 


If you dig through the Killing a God thread on that other forum, http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1167312&highlight=breaching+obelisk, they mentioned an Obelisk thingy which allowed them to plane shift into a plane without it counting as a planeshift or teleportation effect.  If gods can't block it, I don't see Forbiddance being able to. 
It also has the sweet effect of being able to use a 2 round timestop that is not timestop as a free action, usable once IIRC.  http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18237677&postcount=175
It's from Planar Handbook, btw. 


If you combine Metafaculty/Contact Other Plane algorithms and causing a Planar Breach with Breaching Obelisk, you have a way to find his plane, his current status, and a way to get in.  XD

I leave it to better COers to figure out how to kill him.