Author Topic: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster  (Read 84702 times)

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dark_samuari

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #120 on: March 16, 2009, 03:32:33 AM »
So here is my guy. I figured I would take an unorthodox approach and as such there are still aspects of him that need to be polished (equipment & AC being big ones) but his tactic should be good enough.

The Plague

"We're not here because we're free; we're here because we're not free. There's no escaping reason, no denying purpose, because as we both know, without purpose, we would not exist. It is purpose that created us. Purpose that connects us. Purpose that pulls us. That guide us. That drive us. It is purpose that defines. Purpose that binds us. We're here because of you. We're here to take from you what you tried to take from us: purpose."
[spoiler]
Male Exiled Modron, 3rd-Level Fangshields Ranger/1st-Level Wilderness & Martial Drow Rogue/4th-level Crusader/2nd-Level BloodHound/9th-Level Soul Eater 
Size/Type: Medium Living Construct
Hit Dice: 12d8+3/1d6+3/7d10+3 (170 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares),
Armor Class: 13 (+0 armor, +1 Dex, +2 natural armor), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +19/+23
Attack: Unarmed Strike +24/+19/+14/+9 (3d6+4+2 negative levels/x2) or Hand Crossbow +20/+15/+10/+5 (1d4/19-20x2; 30ft.)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Furious Counterstrike, Ready & Waiting, Soul Blast (9d6; 100ft.; Force; Reflex DC 19; 1/day), 
Special Qualities: Living Construct traits, Vulnerability to Surprises, Favored Enemy (Arcanists +1), Voice of the City (+3), Poison Use, Steely Resolve 5, Mark (1), Non-Lethal Force, Indomitable Soul, Zealous Surge (1/day), Energy Drain (Negative Levels), Soul Strength, Soul Enchantment, Soul Radiance, Soul Agility, Soul Slave         
Resistances: Immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, sickening, & energy drain; Does not eat, sleep or breath; Acid Resistance 2, Cold Resistance 2, Fire Resistance 2, Immunity to Mind-affecting effects & abilities
Maneuvers (IL 16; Readied 5 [3])Saves: Fort +19 (+16 base, +3 Con), Ref +16 (+15 base, +1 Dex), Will +6 (+8 Base, -2 Wis) (+2 on saves vs. illusion & mind-affecting effects) (+10 bonus; 1/Minute)
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 6, Cha 10
Skills: Balance +14 (13 ranks, +1 Dex), Gather Information +9 (9 ranks, +0 Cha), Intimidate +26 (23 rank, +0 Cha, +3 deformity bonus), Jump +27 (23 ranks, +4 Str), Knowledge (Arcane) +5 (2 ranks, +3 Int), Knowledge (History) +6 (2 ranks, +4 Int), Listen +22 (22 ranks, -2 Wis, +2 racial), Move Silently +23 (22 ranks, +1 Dex), Search +25 (22 ranks, +3 Int), Spot +22 (22 ranks, -2 Wis, +2 racial), Survival +8 (10 ranks, -2 Wis), Tumble +20 (19 ranks, +1 Dex) and Use Rope +5 (4 rank, +1 Dex)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike [1st], Alertness [Flaw], Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) [Flaw], Track [Ranger1], Hand Crossbow Focus [Rogue1], Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike) [Ranger2], Quick Draw [3rd], Endurance [Ranger3], Supreme Unarmed Attack [6th], Willing Deformity [9th], Deformity (Madness) [12th], Stand Still [15th], Extra Granted Maneuver [18th]
Possessions: Masterwork Hand Crossbow, Goggles (under a persistent Protection from Arrows spell) & a Courtier's Outfit (under a persistent Nondetection spell).     
Alignment: Lawfully Evil   
Languages: Abyssal, Common, Celestial and Infernal
Challenge Rating: 20[/spoiler]

So how does this little guy beat the near destructible mage?
Attrition.
Soul Eater's 9th-level ability Soul Slave transforms any creature destroyed by the Soul Eater into a wright (who themselves can continue this practice), but there happens to be no limit to how many wrights a Soul Eater may possess. So it is easy to say that The Plague will have, over a long time transformed every humanoid on his plane into a wright by mere attrition or killed them if not possible. He would have started with the small towns and worked his way up but sooner or later it would have happened. Then he would have transported from his plane to another and continued the process.

So what does this leave? The mage has to stay on his plane as there is nothing else for him out there. Want to maybe pick up a meal on the material plane? Nope, none there... The mage is also locked into submission as every single humanoid being in existence will have, over time, been transformed or killed by the mass of wrights. 

So does this work?

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #121 on: March 16, 2009, 04:39:57 AM »

Well, there are lots of things that are not going to enjoy having their plane turned to wights. How many Prismatic Dragons does it take to stop the wight horde, then go kill the guy that started it? Depending on the pantheon used, the gods are going to stop you.

Again, the problem here is that the build doesn't defeat the wizard. It might get him to frown, but that's all.

dark_samuari

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #122 on: March 16, 2009, 04:50:51 AM »

Well, there are lots of things that are not going to enjoy having their plane turned to wights. How many Prismatic Dragons does it take to stop the wight horde, then go kill the guy that started it? Depending on the pantheon used, the gods are going to stop you.

You're bringing in outside forces. Outside of the gods themselves, no creature can stand toe-to-toe against a finite level of foes at once.

Again, the problem here is that the build doesn't defeat the wizard. It might get him to frown, but that's all.

It defeats him in every way outside of a conventional battle. I'll accept that as a defeat.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #123 on: March 16, 2009, 05:30:49 AM »
There are an infinite number of prime material planes.  Why should the wizard care that one of them got shadow swarmed?
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ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #124 on: March 16, 2009, 09:13:09 AM »

Quote
You're bringing in outside forces. Outside of the gods themselves, no creature can stand toe-to-toe against a finite level of foes at once.

No, you are bringing in outside forces. In the form of the infinite creatures you wish to consume. I am pointing out that these creatures must be expected to respond.

Quote
Why should the wizard care that one of them got shadow swarmed?

Perhaps it was home to a cheesecake recipe of legend, one of such power that the wizard has spent tens of thousands of years searching for the lost scrolls upon which it rests.

You are quite correct in pointing out that there are infinite planes. Also of interest is the fact that these planes are, themselves, infinite. It makes no sense for the wizard to expose himself because some parts of this infinity are in danger. That would always be the case.

The fight must be taken to the wizard. Either an epic spell or a divine rank of 6 or higher is still required, so far as I know. And, really, why should less be able to defeat such a foe? He is the pinnacle of non-epic play. Should lesser beings have the means to enter his realm?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #125 on: March 16, 2009, 02:31:13 PM »
So does this work?
No. /insert picture of Neo here. :D

Wights existed before your character, and have always been trying to convert all living things into their spawn, and so far they haven't. They are part of the "cosmological ecology" of the D&D multiverse. So there must be adequate "ecological" checks that keep them from spreading out of control, like NPC palladins, clerics, and other servants of Pelor. Basically, in ecological terms, the wights are the prey, and the clerics and palladins that kill them are the predators. There is ecological balance between the two groups before your character comes along.

So the only difference your character makes is that he is an organizing force for the wights. They are now coordinated via the spawn chain of command. So in order to break this up, the wizard doesn't have to kill all the wights... he just has to kill your character. ;) Cut off the head, and the body will fall. As long as he acts fast enough, the normal "ecological predators" will take care of the leftover, unorganized wights. And I don't think the wizard will have any trouble killing your character, once he notices him and decides to do it.

Nice try, though. I like spawn armies. :D
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 02:33:21 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

emeraldstreak

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #126 on: March 17, 2009, 05:23:51 AM »
No idea if it's been mentioned already, but there are ways to Ready an Action outside initiative, i.e. the Bloodhound PrC.

When triggered, the readied action will go before the trigger, even if the trigger is immediate action or diretortoise surprise round.

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #127 on: March 17, 2009, 05:39:41 AM »

Okay, so, how do you find the wizard? And then how do you enter his plane?

Etarran

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #128 on: March 17, 2009, 06:10:45 AM »
Having been lurking on these boards for some time now, and having found this discussion fascinating, I thought here would be as good a place as any for a first post.

Is not the problem of finding the wizard solved by builds using the Vecna-Blooded template mentioned earlier? The wizard is casting contact other plane, and asking questions that would sooner or later have to do with any potential challenger, which would then conveniently fail due to the pseudo-mindblank of the template. The important part, though, is that then the character "immediately learns the name, appearance, and location of the caster who attempted the divination."

Annoying that it requires second-level casting, though.

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #129 on: March 17, 2009, 07:55:35 AM »

What's the knowledge DC to know that such a thing as Vecna-blooded exists?

I don't think the Vecna-blooded's ability even works against Contact Other Plane. But, if it does, why not just use Sending to ask Odin directly?

The whole Contact Other Plane thing seems kind of pointless to me, anyway. If you're already indestructable, and you know it, why do you have to have Zeus explain that to you?

But... if we still want to use it...

Now the wizard has his familiar go someplace else and cast the Contact Other spell for him.

Or, hell, he could sit in his plane, in his stronghold, and cast it himself. You know all that stuff the template gives you. How do you kill the wizard?

Even if he's on the same plane as the Vecna-blooded guy, unless the templated dude happens to be standing within a few hundred feet of the wizard, he's still never going to get close. The wizard still has all his tricks.

Or, we can attempt to void its use altogether. It only gives the name, appearance, and location of the caster, right? Okay, so you have no name, are in the form of an invisible stalker (no appearance) and are inside a rope trick, which you immediately vacate for your super-plane.


jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #130 on: March 17, 2009, 09:57:35 AM »
Pro-Anticaster:
Mindblank foils Contact Other Plane, both offensively and defensively, for sure (ie, you can't get answers about an enemy w/ Mindblank, and you can't ask questions w.r.t. yourself while under Mindblank).  It also foils Truesight (thus the enemy could sneak up either Invisible or Ethereal, or potentially Astral though targeting a landing would be tricky).

Pro-Wizard:
But I agree w/ ErhnamDJ on this point, for sure:  If the Wizard is in a nigh-impenetrable location (one that can't be shifted to while Ethereal or Astral) when using Contact Other Plane, which requires him to drop Mindblank, then its not possible to beat them using non-conventional non-spellcasting tactics. 

Even then, you'd have to be an arcane caster to go first (and then its tricky - playing "chicken" to see who blows their Celerity first, forcing the other to blow Celerity, and immediate actions are gone; whoever wins Initiative is still going to be first).

We've also been assuming this whole time that whoever goes first is going to win (either "locking" the other, or whatever).  I definitely think thats true if the Wizard goes first (Forcecage + Gate or some-such), but it isn't guaranteed if the other goes first without some serious tricks (even the BarBinder is assumed to win grapple checks without any magical buffing at all).

Other stuff:
Before that, the enemy has to find out where the Wizard is.  This might be as simple as a really high Knowledge check, or simply casting Contact Other Plane when the Wizard has their own Mindblank down (via UMD).  The question should be "which day this week would be the best for me to cast Contact Other Plane to find info about the Wizard?" then "Which hour..." then "Which minute"; even then, I'm not sure if it would work due to Mindblank (its a tricky wording, I think).  Apparently Scrying won't work due to a 3.0 magic location enhancement (mentioned earlier).  However, if there are guardians that the Wizard has created, one could ask questions about them "What day will [guardian x] see the Wizard cast Contact Other Plane?" etc.  These could be reworded to ask when the Wizard will go back or leave his plane, but I don't think its a good idea (as the Wizard will be fully buffed when he does, ie Mindblank + Foresight).

Getting there when the single entrance is blocked by a Wall of Force and Dead Magic Zone is another tricky issue.  Force Dragon, Deity, or an Epic Escape Artist check is the only way to get in.  Dimensional Lock on the whole plane (dismissable as desired) is an issue, too.  If you can get in, you can kill that plane via Genesis cast by UMD or similar, and force the Wizard to do something, but that doesn't really solve any problems (other than costing the Wizard XP or gold).

I still hope that someone figures out a method; I still think the BarBinder has the best chance so far.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 10:02:53 AM by jameswilliamogle »

Tshern

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #131 on: March 17, 2009, 12:51:02 PM »
Genesis is not too easy a trick to do though, since the casting time is long as hell.

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #132 on: March 17, 2009, 01:24:01 PM »
What's the knowledge DC to know that such a thing as Vecna-blooded exists?
This is lame and really stretching things. If you're Vecna-blooded, you don't need to know it exists... Seriously.
Quote
Apparently Scrying won't work due to a 3.0 magic location enhancement
The core spell (Mage's) Private Sanctum blocks all scrying, and can be made permanent. I had that down in my build.

And as someone pointed out, the wizard I posted doesn't even need the portal entrance to his demi-plane. It was a relic of earlier plans, so I dropped it.

I think the demiplane wizard I posted is a bit of a red herring. I doubt something like it would see play in an actual game, especially not with all the broken aspects I added like flowing time and the elder titan similacrum. Of course, people are welcome to try their hand at taking it down, but more realistically we should focus on taking down the other builds that don't sit around in a demi-plane astrally projecting themselves all the time.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #133 on: March 17, 2009, 07:42:01 PM »

Okay, so, how do you find the wizard? And then how do you enter his plane?

I was hoping to sooner or later kill a creature with natural 9th-level casting to which I'd gain through Shapechange for 24 hours.

But besides that, I just wanted to ask:

Does the above build do justice to Agent Smith?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #134 on: March 17, 2009, 07:51:42 PM »
Does the above build do justice to Agent Smith?
It's pretty good. It would be better if he were making exact clones of himself, but that's a bit harder to do with D&D mechanics. Some kind of psion who can ignore the XP costs of Mind Seed, maybe. :D
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Etarran

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #135 on: March 17, 2009, 09:20:40 PM »
What's the knowledge DC to know that such a thing as Vecna-blooded exists?
I think we can assume that the wizard is aware of the existence of vecna-blooded creatures, and will have prepared accordingly. that said, if this blocks him from using divinations to gain knowledge about future foes because of the potential of accidentally hitting a vecna-blooded creature with one (which the wizard, paranoid as he is, would have to assume would be a caster at least as powerful as himself, who could actually use the information of his location to great effect), that significantly weakens his defenses.

Quote
Now the wizard has his familiar go someplace else and cast the Contact Other spell for him.
This, at least, is a start for the antagonist. One of the ideas before was diplomancing the familiar - worth a shot if you know who and what the creature is.

Quote
Or, hell, he could sit in his plane, in his stronghold, and cast it himself. You know all that stuff the template gives you. How do you kill the wizard?
The first obstacle, and perhaps the biggest one, was finding the wizard in the first place. Check step one off the list, and now we look for ways into his impenetrable fortress.

Quote
Or, we can attempt to void its use altogether. It only gives the name, appearance, and location of the caster, right? Okay, so you have no name, are in the form of an invisible stalker (no appearance) and are inside a rope trick, which you immediately vacate for your super-plane.
Presumably, the template gives the vecna-blooded creature knowledge of the "true" name - the name by which they think of themselves, and the "true" appearance - what they look like pre shapechange et al. As a DM, I would probably say "he is in a rope trick on plane X," but that may or may not be how it's supposed to work.

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #136 on: March 17, 2009, 10:46:18 PM »

My reasoning was that he would immediately close the rope trick. The place where he was would no longer exist; hence the Vecna-blooded dude gains no information.

As for the other two: there have been (still are?) cultures throughout human history which did not bestow upon themselves (or not all members, at least) names. I put forth the idea that our potential wizard is from one such culture and as such lacks a name. I can't remember which race the wizard is supposed to be, at the moment (other than that he is a necropolitan), but one possible background would be for a warforged who was not given a name.

I am not familiar with the rules-basis for the 'true-appearance' position. I am not of the belief that it is a valid idea.

Etarran

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #137 on: March 17, 2009, 11:18:24 PM »
Well, it does say "immediately," so he would at least gain the information of where the person was when he was casting his divinations - which means the wizard has to move his casting location every time, or else the antagonist could come up with a pattern. Still, as long as the wizard does that, and immediately teleports away from his rope trick (perhaps a contingency teleport set to "if my contact other plane spell fails"), he should be pretty safe from having his location found.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to decide that all paranoid wizards are nameless, but learning the wizard's name isn't really useful anyways.

I guess for the appearance thing, it would depend on what form the information given to the Vecna-blooded creature takes, which is conveniently not explained in the rules text. Since the intent is pretty obviously to make known to the creature who it is who is scrying on them, I would be inclined to give more and more useful information, rather than less, but I can see no rules support either way, so it's probably better to go with your interpretation for the sake of keeping the challenge as challenging as possible.

Still, I think it's interesting that the very existence of the vecna-blooded template significantly impacts the wizard's defensive techniques - and I think there may be value in the small amount of knowledge you would gain from having the template. "Hiding in a rope trick with the entrance in location X" is a lot better than "somewhere," even if the wizard immediately leaves that spot.

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #138 on: March 18, 2009, 05:49:15 AM »

Are there any creatures with Contact Other Plane that the wizard can have a simulacrum of? That seems like a lot less trouble.

Ithamar

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #139 on: March 18, 2009, 02:14:55 PM »
Knowing the wizard's name could potentially be useful.  Once you've got his name, you can find his parents, siblings, 3rd grade teachers, high school sweetheart, etc.  Hopefully at least 1 person the wizard cares about isn't a high level mage as well.  Then, when the wizard takes some action to try and rescue them (even if it isn't actually leaving his demiplane), you might be able to find an opening.

Of course, being a necropolitan, there's a good chance all of the wizard's associates are long dead, or are undead themselves...
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