Author Topic: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster  (Read 84689 times)

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juton

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Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« on: March 09, 2009, 12:46:52 AM »
In part 1 we brainstormed some idea as to take down a level 20 caster with a mundane character. Turns out it's pretty difficult, partly because the capabilities of what a caster can do are somewhat nebulous.
 
So in part 2 we worked on how to make a caster. The character on the front page is my build, I've deliberately sandbagged it in places to hopefully make things more interesting. The scenario is here. Short version : he's out in the open in a city for about a minute.
 
If you think you're ready to step up to the big leagues PhaedrusXY has been so gracious as to provide not one but two builds. This is a full on caster, he lives on his demi-plane, he has his own clone, he usually wanders around as a dire-turtle, he's the real deal.

What I'd like to see is explanations on how you'd take the caster down, if it's a complicated trick provide part or all of the build that lets you do it. To get the ideas flowing let's open this up to casters in part, although no one will be impressed if you use high powered builds like the Cheater of Mystra to take the Wizard down. I have a rough points scheme, basically you get more points by using lower Tier characters, and by how authoritatively you dominate the Wizard.

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2009, 12:47:05 AM »
Similar in spirit to the Iron-Chef competitions I'm including a point scheme to help rank the builds. I'm going to list it here in the hopes that some of you might try to optimize your score.

[spoiler=Points]
Tier used:
Tier 0 (Pun-Pun): -10 pts
Tier 1 (Cleric): 0 pts
Tier 2 (Sorcerer): 10 pts
Tier 3 (Tome of Battle): 25 pts
Tier 4 (Rogue): 40 pts
Tier 5 (Fighter): 50 pts
Tier 6 (Commoner): 75 pts

Bonus if they have no spellcasting : 10pts
Bonus if they use only one magic item : 25pts
Up to 10 pts for style
Up to 50 pts for how strongly they dominate the Wizard

-5pts per questionable rule call
[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Builds]
None yet!
[/spoiler]

If the point system turns out to be lame I'll junk it. Good luck and good hunting!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 12:54:57 AM by juton »

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2009, 02:04:23 AM »

Okay, are the builds I have to beat the ones without Craft Contingent Spell? And the one (the first one) without Mind Blank up? This is doable, I think.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2009, 02:34:52 AM »

Okay, are the builds I have to beat the ones without Craft Contingent Spell? And the one (the first one) without Mind Blank up? This is doable, I think.
Their prepared spells could change, based on contact other plane. ;) I think we should come up with a list of questions for that.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2009, 02:42:08 AM »

No Legacy item with Cunning either?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2009, 02:48:21 AM »

No Legacy item with Cunning either?
Not needed, when you're walking around as a minotaur 24/7.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2009, 02:58:11 AM »

Minotaur =/= dire tortoise. Big mistake.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2009, 04:14:17 AM »

Minotaur =/= dire tortoise. Big mistake.
I don't have the book for that shit. Besides, what does it matter when you have Celerity + never flat-footed? Unless you go up against someone with all that crap who is also a dire tortoise. And if you do... they're hardly functioning as a non-caster, so that's basically a surrender as far as I'm concerned. ;)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 04:35:04 AM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2009, 07:56:50 AM »

Well, a 'caster' and a wizard are not even close to the same thing. A bard 20 whooping the wizard's ass would count for a whole hell of a lot to me. Actually, I'm pretty sure I could pull that off... without resorting to UMD.

Let's see. A legacy item with Cunning is required. It will also give Mind Blank and Contingency (Gotta get those outside spells from somewhere).

We can grab a domain for sure... which gives us Greater Anyspell. Celerity galore. We'll even use Craft Contingent Spell.

Gotta have Obtain Familiar.

I think I can get the bard going first, then. What does he do to harm our iron-hatted hero? The hell if I know. I'll try and think of something.

ReaderOfPosts

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2009, 10:43:50 AM »
Are there bonus points for beating PhadreusXY's build as well as the basic one?

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2009, 12:32:46 PM »
Are there bonus points for beating PhadreusXY's build as well as the basic one?

Yes there is, I don't know how many yet.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2009, 01:47:21 PM »
So we're going with the craziest version of mine, who sits around in his own demiplane and goes everywhere as an Astral Projection? And his demiplane has a 10 to 1 time ratio and applies any metamagic he wants for free? And he has an uber-similacrum of a 50+ HD dragon or something? Right? How much XP can he burn? :p
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2009, 02:22:34 PM »
Losing XP doesn't make you go down a level, correct? If that is so please show some self restraint.

dark_samuari

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2009, 02:33:05 PM »
I'm cooking up two ideas with one being an Aristocrat and the other a Soul Eater. I'm going to take a different approach then direct combat though, so lets see how it works.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2009, 02:33:42 PM »
Losing XP doesn't make you go down a level, correct? If that is so please show some self restraint.
I'll say he has spent 5000 for Genesis, 1500 for making Arcane Sight permanent, 2500 for permanent Private Sanctum, and 2600 for making a 26 HD similacrum, for 11,600 total. I think you can lose a level, but no one said we started with the minimum for 20th. This is still substantially less than the difference between 21st and 20th.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 02:37:32 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2009, 06:22:33 PM »
Don't forget the bonus XP Item Familiar grants :P
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Echoes

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2009, 06:28:08 PM »
Losing XP doesn't make you go down a level, correct? If that is so please show some self restraint.
I'll say he has spent 5000 for Genesis, 1500 for making Arcane Sight permanent, 2500 for permanent Private Sanctum, and 2600 for making a 26 HD similacrum, for 11,600 total. I think you can lose a level, but no one said we started with the minimum for 20th. This is still substantially less than the difference between 21st and 20th.

Or, y'know, thought bottle.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2009, 06:43:37 PM »
Losing XP doesn't make you go down a level, correct? If that is so please show some self restraint.
I'll say he has spent 5000 for Genesis, 1500 for making Arcane Sight permanent, 2500 for permanent Private Sanctum, and 2600 for making a 26 HD similacrum, for 11,600 total. I think you can lose a level, but no one said we started with the minimum for 20th. This is still substantially less than the difference between 21st and 20th.

Or, y'know, thought bottle.
Geez... yeah, let's just add every broken thing possible. I guess if I'm abusing the hell out of Genesis, I should add that too.  :smirk

At first, I meant to build a reasonable character, and only added the Genesis stuff as an example of what a wizard could do... but something that likely would never be seen in a real game. Now it seems that the crazy example has become the character. :p

I really think that the non-genesis abusing build that I posted is a more realistic example of a decently optimized wizard that might see play in a real game, but that could also likely curb-stomp any non-caster that tries to challenge him.

So how about we have three wizard versions: 1) Juton's wizard, 2) my wizard without Genesis/Similacrum cheese (either single classed or Loremaster, they're both basically the same), and 3) my wizard with everything. We could perhaps weight the scores depending on which version they take down? Like say add a multiplier, for example 1x for Juton's, 1.5x for mine w/o genesis, and 3x for the full monte?
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2009, 06:56:19 PM »
Just make sure to abuse EVERYTHING there is to abuse with that last one ;)
Basically make game balance bend over and take a telephone pole up the ass :P
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

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You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2009, 06:57:55 PM »
Just make sure to abuse EVERYTHING there is to abuse with that last one ;)
Basically make game balance bend over and take a telephone pole up the ass :P
Yeah... I should go back and add Craft Contingent Spell, an item familiar, and a Thought Bottle at the least. :p
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]