Author Topic: Tier system for PrCs?  (Read 16988 times)

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woodenbandman

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2009, 04:08:21 PM »
Yeah, 9 disciplines, and +2damage/discipline you ready from. And you have 3 classes that ready maneuvers. Sure you could get +18 damage, but there's no need to ready all 9 disciplines. Stone Dragon and Desert Wind are almost always entirely unnecessary (though Adamantine Bones is very very useful).

And the point of the post I was trying to make was that you could put maneuvers FROM the warblade set, or even the swordsage set, ONTO the crusader recovery mechanic, which has as its greatest selling point maneuver recovery as a non-action. Whereas a warblade has to stop using maneuvers for a full round to recover their maneuvers, the crusader can spam out a maneuver, a boost, and, if they have that stance from Setting Sun(or was it Diamond Mind) 8, a counter, and still recover their maneuvers for the round. Warblade must take a swift action, followed by a standard action to attack or do nothing to recover his maneuvers, meaning that he spends a whole turn, making him only marginally better than a swordsage who can, using a full round action, change his readied maneuvers(and he could change them to maneuvers that are not even different, and they'd be considered readied again). Arguably, Warblade's the weakest recovery mechanic, because (and correct me if I'm wrong), a Swordsage can use adaptive style as well as a counter or boost (though why would you) in the same round, whereas a warblade may not.

Besides, RE: the lost feats: with the maneuvers you gained, you can probably afford to take 2 fighter levels and lose 1 initiator level, which, since you take Mo9 late game, will still result in a ludicrous number of maneuvers.

Negative Zero

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2009, 08:23:49 PM »
Dweomerkeeper should be in the same tier as Planar Shepherd, because it also has XP-Free wishes.

Wih

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2009, 04:45:05 PM »
A couple of notes about Mo9 - Firstly, the +9 to attack ability triggers off the first set of maneuvers you prepare in the day. You can then switch them out with a full action to contain only 2 or 3 disciplines and still have the +9; pretty much it's based on how much you know, not what you have prepared at the time.
Secondly, the Crusader recovery method isn't that great to apply PrC initiating to; the bonus Maneuvers Readied only adds to the first set of maneuvers granted in combat - after refreshing in the 3rd or 4th turn you go back to your standard 2 or 3 maneuvers.
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woodenbandman

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2009, 01:05:24 AM »
^If that were true, then the whole thing where it says 7(4) would be totally irrelevant. The number in parentheses is the number you're granted, and whenever you gain a new readied maneuver on your crusader maneuvers, you gain a new one granted. So, actually, you're mistaken.

Wih

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2009, 05:04:10 AM »
^If that were true, then the whole thing where it says 7(4) would be totally irrelevant. The number in parentheses is the number you're granted, and whenever you gain a new readied maneuver on your crusader maneuvers, you gain a new one granted. So, actually, you're mistaken.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. The Extra Maneuver Readied from a PrC adding to Maneuvers Granted for a Crusader text comes from ToB page 96, which reads: (emphasis mine)

Quote
If you choose to add the maneuver readied to a martial maneuver progression deroved from crusader class levels, you also gain one additional maneuver granted at the beginning of the encounter for each additional maneuver you can ready.

A while ago I tried pushing the whole Maneuvers Granted thing using Crusader/Master of Nine (see here), however when I came across this text, I ended up asking Cust-serv, who (after a long while of dodging the question) answered with this:

Quote
Hi there *******,

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support!

Sorry for the confusion. I misunderstood your question. The "Maneuvers Readied" section specifies that your extra granted maneuvers are gained "at the beginning of the encounter." So only then do you get the extra granted maneuvers. Once you no longer have any maneuvers withheld and you recover all your maneuvers back to the "readied" state (where most are withheld), the Crusader entry explicitly states that you receive a new pair of granted maneuvers. You don't get the extras granted at that time, as it is no longer "the beginning of the encounter."

Hopefully this clears things up.


Take Care and Good Gaming! :)

The feat Extra Granted Maneuver has the following sentance after the bit about "at the beginning of the encounter":

Quote
This feat also applied when you determine a new set of granted maneuvers after recovering expended maneuvers.

, while the text for PrC bonus maneuvers does not.

I'm not sure what you mean by "where it says 7(4)" - if you're looking at one of the sample characters for that information, then I don't think it's any more reliable than CustServ, and in this instance CustServ seems to be following the RAW over the RAI.
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RobbyPants

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2009, 04:23:47 PM »
Dweomerkeeper should be in the same tier as Planar Shepherd, because it also has XP-Free wishes.
I'm not sure how we're comparing PrCs to base classes, but a wizard can get XP-free wishes at level 11 with Planar Binding.  So, I guess any PrC that advanaces sorcerer/wizard casting can do this too.

Also, anyone with 8,000 gp and the opportunity to purchase a lawful evil Candle of Invocation can do the same thing, but that's comparing something entirely different.
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woodenbandman

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2009, 02:18:35 PM »
^If that were true, then the whole thing where it says 7(4) would be totally irrelevant. The number in parentheses is the number you're granted, and whenever you gain a new readied maneuver on your crusader maneuvers, you gain a new one granted. So, actually, you're mistaken.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. The Extra Maneuver Readied from a PrC adding to Maneuvers Granted for a Crusader text comes from ToB page 96, which reads: (emphasis mine)

Quote
If you choose to add the maneuver readied to a martial maneuver progression deroved from crusader class levels, you also gain one additional maneuver granted at the beginning of the encounter for each additional maneuver you can ready.

A while ago I tried pushing the whole Maneuvers Granted thing using Crusader/Master of Nine (see here), however when I came across this text, I ended up asking Cust-serv, who (after a long while of dodging the question) answered with this:

Quote
Hi there *******,

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support!

Sorry for the confusion. I misunderstood your question. The "Maneuvers Readied" section specifies that your extra granted maneuvers are gained "at the beginning of the encounter." So only then do you get the extra granted maneuvers. Once you no longer have any maneuvers withheld and you recover all your maneuvers back to the "readied" state (where most are withheld), the Crusader entry explicitly states that you receive a new pair of granted maneuvers. You don't get the extras granted at that time, as it is no longer "the beginning of the encounter."

Hopefully this clears things up.


Take Care and Good Gaming! :)

The feat Extra Granted Maneuver has the following sentance after the bit about "at the beginning of the encounter":

Quote
This feat also applied when you determine a new set of granted maneuvers after recovering expended maneuvers.

, while the text for PrC bonus maneuvers does not.

I'm not sure what you mean by "where it says 7(4)" - if you're looking at one of the sample characters for that information, then I don't think it's any more reliable than CustServ, and in this instance CustServ seems to be following the RAW over the RAI.

I'm actually referring to the table of the Crusader class. Whenever a crusader receives a new maneuver readied (he starts with 5), he also gains an extra maneuver granted, so when he has 5 readied and gains his sixth, the (x) after the first number increases by one as well.

I'm AFB right now, but if I recall correctly, that thing at the beginning of the class that says "maneuvers readied" is worded in that way in order to be easy to understand as a first level crusader, and I'm going to argue that the rule is intended to work in the way that I've said. I do believe that, RAW, you are correct, and I never noticed that before. However, if this is true, then this makes the crusader an extremely weak class, because they're readying 7 maneuvers, but not getting  a chance to use them because 2 rounds later, they have to swap them out, meaning that most of the time they can't access hardly any of their maneuvers, which bumps them down to the weakest of the 3 maneuver granting classes.

I'm not sure what the exact text is, because, again, I'm AFB, but I'll check it when I get home in 7 hours or so.

sonofzeal

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2009, 10:56:16 PM »
(edit - added PrCs from Complete Warrior.  Anyone should feel free to copy my list and make corrections and/or additions.)

Back on point... here's my proposed tier system, with examples from Complete Adventurer because I was just looking through it.  I compare the power of a PrC to the "obvious entry classes" (as given in the text, by the example character, and from my own reading of the requirements), because otherwise everything devolves into "well this doesn't get full Sor/Wiz casting therefor it sucks".  If a prestige class for Monks was a definite upgrade over the basic Monk, at the things Monks are supposed to do, then it would be Tier 2, and if a Sor/Wiz PrC gives some nice thing but costs too many spell levels then it would be Tier 4, even if it's still categorically more powerful than a character with the Monk PrC.  A Mindbender10 is generally a better character than a Soulbow10, but Soulbow is a better PrC.  Similarly, a class whose entry requirements are odious will generally rank poorly even if it has otherwise good features.  Of course, there's often odd ways to qualify for things or ignore the drawbacks; I'm going to assume throughout that the player is taking the "obvious" choices, and leave it to the players to come up with tricks.  I'm also going to assume cheeselessness; just because Exemplars make for excellent Jumplomancers doesn't make them viable adventurers.  Exemplars can be overpowered because some skills are overpowered when taken to the extreme, but the power's from the skill, not the PrC.  Also, I've never seen many of these in play, so feel free to suggest changes.




Tier 1 - Gamebreaking.  Members of these PrCs change the world beyond recovery, or are such an obvious choice that they almost cease to be optional.  PrCs that render their corresponding entire base classes obsolete go here, regardless of the strength of that base class.
Planar Sheppard
Soulbow
Bear Warrior
Frenzied Berserker
Hulking Hurler


Tier 2 - Generally more powerful than the obvious entry classes; offers significant advantages, with no or minimal drawbacks.
Bloodhound.
Daggerspell Shaper
Dread Pirate
Ghost Faced Killer
Nightsong Enforcer
Shadowbane Stalker
Spymaster
Wild Plains Outrider
Cavalier
Dervish
Drunken Master
Exotic Weapons Master
Halfling Outrider
Knight of the Chalice
Knight Protector
Master Thrower
Occult Slayer
Thayan Knight
Warshaper
Virtuoso


Tier 3 - On par with the obvious entry classes overall; trades strengths in certain areas for strengths in others, or provides moderate gains for a moderate investment (ie required feats or unfavorable multiclassing).
Animal Lord
Beastmaster
Daggerspell Mage
Highland Stalker
Maester
Shadowband Inquisitor
Mindspy
Streetfighter
Vigilante
Bladesinger
Darkwood Stalker
Eye of Gruumsh
Gnome Giant-Slayer
Justicar
Kensai
Purple Dragon Knight
Ravager
Ronin
Stonelord
Tattooed Monk
War Chanter


Tier 4 - Weak.  Generally inferior to the obvious entry classes.  May be useful for cherrypicking, or if a particular class feature is absolutely required.
Dungeon Delver
Exemplar
Master of Many Forms
Nightsong Infiltrator
Tempest
Thief-Acrobat
Dark Hunter
Hunter of the Dead
Invisible Blade (personal note: I really like this class and have used it to great effect... but I recognize why most argue it's underpowered.)
Mindspy
Nature's Warrior
Order of the Bow Initiate
Rage Mage
Spellsword (except for 1 level dips)


Tier 5 - Nonfunctional.  Completely fails to do what it was trying to do, and/or makes heavy sacrifices for little to no gain.  Unplayable without heavy optimization effort.
Ollam
Fochlucan Lyrist (unless the Ring of Evasion trick works, then Tier 2)
Master of the Unseen Hand
Reaping Mauler

(edit)
Clarification on how I'm (subjectively of course) rating things...

Tier 1 - "Oh hey, you're playing a [Base Class X]?  You'd better have a very good reason why you're not at least considering [Prestige class Y]!"

Tier 2 - "Oh hey, you're playing a [Base Class X]?  I think [Prestige class Y] would be cool for you."

Tier 3 - "Oh hey, you're playing a [Prestige class Y]?  I suppose that's a fair choice, let's see how it goes."

Tier 4 - "Oh hey, you're playing a [Prestige class Y]?  Uh... do you have any particular cunning plan in mind to make that work?"

Tier 5 - "....oh dear lord.  Are you absolutely sure you know what you're getting yourself into?"
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 01:12:58 PM by sonofzeal »

woodenbandman

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2009, 11:13:54 PM »
Excuse me, did you just make Vigilante a tier 2?

sonofzeal

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2009, 11:19:35 PM »
Excuse me, did you just make Vigilante a tier 2?
Well - who's going to be taking the class?  Ranger, Rogues, and Fighters most likely, so it needs to be judged from those standards.  I put it up there because it gets spellcasting... but yeah, on second glance it gets too few spells known, too few spells per day, and both off of a fairly mediocre list.  I'll edit it down a tier unless you've got a convincing argument why it should be further.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2009, 12:13:16 AM »
Dude, I dunno WHAT you're high on, but you definitely need to come off it!

VIRTUOSO, a Tier 1 class?! WTF have you been SMOKING?!
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Bozwevial

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2009, 12:23:42 AM »
You just made the exemplar, the diplomancer's best friend, a Tier 4? Wha...?

sonofzeal

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2009, 12:48:43 AM »
Dude, I dunno WHAT you're high on, but you definitely need to come off it!

VIRTUOSO, a Tier 1 class?! WTF have you been SMOKING?!
Eh, Tier 2 then.  Bard loses just about nothing except Bardic Knowledge and gains way more options for his music (including jarring song, which I misread the range on, and song of fury, which is pretty awesome however you read it).  I'd say the jump in power of Bard10/Virtuoso10 over Bard20 is significantly bigger than most ones I listed in Tier 2, and the fact that it's dead easy for just about anyone to get into is a factor too.  At the same time, I did want to have at least one Tier 1, so perhaps I was a bit over-lenient.  It's certainly not "Planar Sheppard"... although Bards are certainly not Druidzillas, so that analogy falls apart.  Also, "Planar Sheppard" isn't average for Tier 1, it's almost inarguably the peak.  Anyway, if this was a sliding scale, I'd put Virtuoso at a healthy 1.5... but if it really bothers you, I don't mind moving it down to a 2.


Also, if people could... y'know, phrase their comments in a helpful manner, hopefully with a bit of thoughtful analysis to back it up ("despite the advantages of Virtuoso over Bard, I believe it fails to deliver the sheer power that should be expected of Tier 1, and should instead be listed as a solid Tier 2"), or offer suggestions of their own ("let's put Incantrix and Rainbow Servant as Tier 1!"), that would be really helpful.

You just made the exemplar, the diplomancer's best friend, a Tier 4? Wha...?
Read the post.  Exemplar isn't broken, it's diplomacy that's broken.  And Diplomacy is broken just fine without any help from Exemplar.  And yes, Exemplar is a good trick for getting something crazy like Jumplomancy, but as far as the class as a whole is concerned I'd call that a "special trick".  Many of these PrCs have special tricks you can pull with them, but just because the Exemplar's is famous doesn't necessarily reflect well on the rest of the PrC when taken at face value.

Bozwevial

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2009, 01:22:06 AM »
What struck me as odd was the fact that you have, say, ghost-faced killer/bloodhound/spymaster up in Tier 2, and the exemplar is down in Tier 4 when it has useful abilities for skill monkeys. By those standards, the exemplar should be higher.

sonofzeal

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2009, 01:31:21 AM »
What struck me as odd was the fact that you have, say, ghost-faced killer/bloodhound/spymaster up in Tier 2, and the exemplar is down in Tier 4 when it has useful abilities for skill monkeys. By those standards, the exemplar should be higher.
I suppose that's my own personal bias coming in to play.  I generally look at things for how useful they'd be in an adventuring party, and how much I'd want one beside me at the gaming table.  Exemplars are not horribly useless (hence not Tier 5), but all else being equal I think I'd rather have a Rogue20 than a Rogue10/Exemplar10 in my party.  Conversely, I'd much rather have a Ranger10/Bloodhound10 ally than a Ranger20, and Ninja10/GhostFacedKiller10 seems like a much better call than Ninja20 (though that's hardly saying much).  Still, as I admit in the original post, I haven't actually seen most of these in play.  If you have an alternate listing, feel free to propose it.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2009, 04:28:51 AM »
Dude, I dunno WHAT you're high on, but you definitely need to come off it!

VIRTUOSO, a Tier 1 class?! WTF have you been SMOKING?!
Eh, Tier 2 then.  Bard loses just about nothing except Bardic Knowledge and gains way more options for his music (including jarring song, which I misread the range on, and song of fury, which is pretty awesome however you read it).  I'd say the jump in power of Bard10/Virtuoso10 over Bard20 is significantly bigger than most ones I listed in Tier 2, and the fact that it's dead easy for just about anyone to get into is a factor too.  At the same time, I did want to have at least one Tier 1, so perhaps I was a bit over-lenient.  It's certainly not "Planar Sheppard"... although Bards are certainly not Druidzillas, so that analogy falls apart.  Also, "Planar Sheppard" isn't average for Tier 1, it's almost inarguably the peak.  Anyway, if this was a sliding scale, I'd put Virtuoso at a healthy 1.5... but if it really bothers you, I don't mind moving it down to a 2.


Also, if people could... y'know, phrase their comments in a helpful manner, hopefully with a bit of thoughtful analysis to back it up ("despite the advantages of Virtuoso over Bard, I believe it fails to deliver the sheer power that should be expected of Tier 1, and should instead be listed as a solid Tier 2"), or offer suggestions of their own ("let's put Incantrix and Rainbow Servant as Tier 1!"), that would be really helpful.

You just made the exemplar, the diplomancer's best friend, a Tier 4? Wha...?
Read the post.  Exemplar isn't broken, it's diplomacy that's broken.  And Diplomacy is broken just fine without any help from Exemplar.  And yes, Exemplar is a good trick for getting something crazy like Jumplomancy, but as far as the class as a whole is concerned I'd call that a "special trick".  Many of these PrCs have special tricks you can pull with them, but just because the Exemplar's is famous doesn't necessarily reflect well on the rest of the PrC when taken at face value.

Fair enough: let's put it this way. Your classification of the Virtuoso failed to meet even your OWN criteria.

Quote
Tier 1 - Gamebreaking. Members of these PrCs change the world beyond recovery, or are such an obvious choice that they almost cease to be optional.  PrCs that render their corresponding entire base classes obsolete go here, regardless of the strength of that base class.


The Virtuoso fails to do that at even the simplest level. I could even understand making it a case for a Sorc/Wiz going into Virtuoso (as this opens up things like Lyric Spell/Metamagic Song shenanigans), but to say the Bard is turned obsolete because of song of fury of all things truly borders on ignorance; to say that it breaks the game because of that, even moreso. Ditto Frenzied Berserker - he acquires, at the same time, such a huge problem with his main class feature that he instantly becomes a danger to his entire party (all it takes is ONE wizard with Improved Invisibility. ONE.), and while he can dish out a VIOLENT amount of damage, that's ALL he does. He is utterly uncapable of ANYTHING else that might break the game, and is so easily stopped it's not even FUNNY.

One other thing: saying the exemplar is broken because Diplomacy is broken and thus, the class is not as strong, is kinda like saying that Wizards are broken because the spells themselves are broken. A class must not be taken separately from the context it's inserted in - Unseen Seer, for example, is an awesome PrC that nets you lots of goodies with a single drawback (which is solvable by a single feat). This is because even spells cannot solve everything, skills have their place as power too.
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sonofzeal

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2009, 05:01:08 AM »
Fair enough: let's put it this way. Your classification of the Virtuoso failed to meet even your OWN criteria.

Quote
Tier 1 - Gamebreaking. Members of these PrCs change the world beyond recovery, or are such an obvious choice that they almost cease to be optional.  PrCs that render their corresponding entire base classes obsolete go here, regardless of the strength of that base class.


The Virtuoso fails to do that at even the simplest level. I could even understand making it a case for a Sorc/Wiz going into Virtuoso (as this opens up things like Lyric Spell/Metamagic Song shenanigans), but to say the Bard is turned obsolete because of song of fury of all things truly borders on ignorance; to say that it breaks the game because of that, even moreso. Ditto Frenzied Berserker - he acquires, at the same time, such a huge problem with his main class feature that he instantly becomes a danger to his entire party (all it takes is ONE wizard with Improved Invisibility. ONE.), and while he can dish out a VIOLENT amount of damage, that's ALL he does. He is utterly uncapable of ANYTHING else that might break the game, and is so easily stopped it's not even FUNNY.

One other thing: saying the exemplar is broken because Diplomacy is broken and thus, the class is not as strong, is kinda like saying that Wizards are broken because the spells themselves are broken. A class must not be taken separately from the context it's inserted in - Unseen Seer, for example, is an awesome PrC that nets you lots of goodies with a single drawback (which is solvable by a single feat). This is because even spells cannot solve everything, skills have their place as power too.
Hmm.  Well, I don't usually play Bards, so perhaps you know better.  It's just... well, to me Bards are {a} spellcasting, {b} bardic music, and {c} skills.  When I read Virtuoso, I got the impression that it does just fine for {a} and {c}, and considerably boosts {b}.  Given that Bards aren't generally going to win any prizes for their spellcasting in the first place, and Virtuoso only loses a single level of it, it seemed like a pretty straight upgrade to me, with seriously strong potential for Jarring Song if you can keep the enemy caster in range.  But again I've never played one, or even seen one played, so I'm willing to bow to your expertise on this.  Why don't they render straight-bards obsolete?  How would you rank them, and why?

Frenzied Berserker is a more difficult call.  All he can do is fight, but he does that really well, enough to take down just about anything he can reach with his sword in a single hit.  You're right that he's easy to negate, but really - the type of person who can negate him can negate most things.  You're right that he's a danger to everyone around him, but that's not really a power issue, and questions of party-friendliness go a bit beyond the scope of a rating system like this.  I do realize this is a controversial class, but I haven't really followed the debate.  All I know is that, in a straight-up physical fight, they dominate embarrassingly.  I think I'm going to keep them them there, just because they're such a huge jump in raw power over a straight Barbarian.  Yes it brings its own weaknesses, so it's a bit of a special case, but I do think it's earned a top spot.

Exemplar... well, my thought process was that it isn't a diplomacy-themed class, so I wasn't going to count diplomancing... but they do get that one diplo-based class feature (and it's a good one), so I guess I'll give it to them.  What do you think then, Tier 2?



And... rather than just sit back and criticize, why don't you take my list thus far and tweak it, change what you want, add stuff, etc.  I mean, as imperfect as some of my ratings are, at least I'm actually going through and trying to come up with a working system, and digging through dozens of PrCs in the process.  If you don't like how I'm doing it, then HELP!

Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2009, 06:05:20 AM »
I am helping by being incredibly vitriolic. I just find you're coming off the wrong assumptions.

Here's an example: Sublime Chord. The requirements are fairly easily met (if a little late, as usual) and regardless if you take it as a 2-level dip and then take another spellcasting advancement PrC or you take it the whole way, it adds an incredible amount of power to the Bard, who's otherwise a 'Sorcerer Lite', so to speak. Bards can actually stand on their own somewhat decently if you know what you're doing (up until about 10th level), and they offer a good number of options (some of which are exclusive to them, like Song of the White Raven, Metamagic Song, Lyric Spell, etc. al).

Now try placing the Virtuoso and the Sublime Chord side-by-side (and remember that SC essentially makes a normal bard a sorcerer in disguise, and sorcerers are tier 2 in the other system): do you really believe that Virtuoso deserves that spot? Do you truly think that, BY ITSELF, the PrC provides you the power to bend reality over a table and fuck it so hard it can't walk for weeks?

You gotta scrutinize EVERY PrC in this way, and this is hard to do, because PrCs can either be too awesome on their own, or kinda meh except for some shiny features (Mindbender's the best example of this. It's the only 1-level PrC, ever). If you start off on the wrong assumptions to begin with, you can't go through with it.

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Frenzied Berserker is a more difficult call.  All he can do is fight, but he does that really well, enough to take down just about anything he can reach with his sword in a single hit.  You're right that he's easy to negate, but really - the type of person who can negate him can negate most things.  You're right that he's a danger to everyone around him, but that's not really a power issue, and questions of party-friendliness go a bit beyond the scope of a rating system like this.  I do realize this is a controversial class, but I haven't really followed the debate.  All I know is that, in a straight-up physical fight, they dominate embarrassingly.  I think I'm going to keep them them there, just because they're such a huge jump in raw power over a straight Barbarian.  Yes it brings its own weaknesses, so it's a bit of a special case, but I do think it's earned a top spot.
I won't deny that Frenzied Berserker is one of the if not THE class with the biggest melee damage outputs in the game.

Sadly, melee damage output is incredibly suboptimal, as it's denied far too easily. In order for a Frenzied Berserker to be effective close to 100% of the time, he needs four things:

-At-will flight (preferrably natural)
-True seeing at will (because it beats one of the simplest ways to get him, which is through illusions)
-A way to affect incorporeal critters
-The Mage Slayer line of feats.

If he can have all those four, he might be able to always be effective. Maybe. Just consider what a single flight-capable adversary can do to him (possibly even besting him at melee combat, no less, using flyby attack) if he happens to be unable to keep up.

He can kick stuff really hard, but that's it. He's incredibly overspecialized, doing one thing extremely well to the exclusion of all others. That means he's tier 3, because he doesn't HAVE the potential to break the game unless it's based off melee encounters all the time.
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woodenbandman

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2009, 12:52:08 PM »
Further, Virtuoso isn't really an obvious choice. Bards are really this:
A: Support fire/buffs
B: Combat
C: Skills

You can get decent skills with virtuoso, and your support abilities are boosted a bit, but at the expense of your combat potential (which, believe me, you have). Just as the Bardblade or the Bardarian loses out on spellcasting in favor of maneuvers and music, you lose on combat in favors of music and spells.

sonofzeal

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Re: Tier system for PrCs?
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2009, 01:46:01 PM »
Ah, I'd forgotten about Sublime Chord (again, I don't play Bards).  I'll shift it down to Tier 2.  Should Sublime Chord be Tier 1 then?  Keeping in mind that Tier 1 for PrCs doesn't necessarily mean gamespanking power, just that it's a disproportionate boost over the base.

Also, the problems you list with Frenzied Berserker seem to be less "problems with the class" and more "problems with 75% of D&D characters".  Everyone needs flight, everyone needs true seeing (since you need to interact with illusions to get a save - which, btw, FB gets a hefty bonus on), every melee character needs Ghost Touch or something similar, and mageslayer is disproportionately useful.  However... there's nothing keeping an FB from taking mageslayer and a Ghost Touch weapon, natural flight can be picked up through a Berserker dip if it's judged worthwhile (and does give a further frenzy boost), and True Seeing... well, what's your Fighter20 or Barbarian20 going to do about that, that your FB can't?

Again, remember that I'm comparing the PrC to the base class, and when I look at a FB standing next to a straight Barbarian, I see a monster.  You seem to be comparing the PrC to what a Sor/Wiz is capable of, or at least judging it a failure unless it's virtually unstoppable, and I don't think that's a useful measure.  How many PrCs are going to be Tier 1 by your measure?  Planar Sheppard, Incantrix, Souleater, maybe Fiend-Blooded, probably a couple more that I'm not thinking of right now.  I want Tier 1 to actually get used, to collect examples of the real stand-outs among PrCs.  I want it to be a short list of the PrCs that should be household names in any group, whether or not they actually get used.

What if I changed the description from "Gamebreaking" to "Gamechanging"?