Tier system for PrCs?

[woodenbandman]

Fist of Raziel is from Book of Exalted Deeds

The main thing about the frenzied berserker is that he cannot die while frenzying, and his presence changes party tactics. Plus, his damage output can get so high that it can rival the power of save-or-dies.

He cannot die From HP Damage. That part is very important. Drowning, Will Saves... those two cover enough things.

[Tshern]

And Grease.

[Kuroimaken]

Sublime Chord is probably tier two

Why? It grants 9th level spells in 10 levels.

And it requires at least 10th level to enter. Your point being?

[Bozwevial]

Sublime Chord is probably tier two

Why? It grants 9th level spells in 10 levels.

And it requires at least 10th level to enter. Your point being?

Er...coupled with a dual progression class...something? Eh, it's better than the normal bard spell progression, that's my point.

[Prime32]

And Grease.

What are you going to do, cast it in his arteries?

[Bozwevial]

And Grease.

What are you going to do, cast it in his arteries?

Maybe if you cut a wound open, cast it, and then healed him, it'd work.

[SKRP]

And Grease.

What are you going to do, cast it in his arteries?

During Frenzy, berserker automatically fails all balance checks.

[Shadowhunter]

What? How?

The veils act as a skin-tight Prismatic Wall. Prismatic Wall is immune to AMF, and blocks its Line of Effect (LoE). So the veils would keep your buffs and magic items active while inside an AMF, and you could even cast spells. They wouldn't be able to take effect inside the AMF area itself, but they could affect you or creatures outside of it (because the Rules Compendium said that AMF does not block LoE).

So THAT'S why IotSV is considered so good! I can't believe I totally missed that...

 

 



On an related note:
Fiend-Blooded, tier +1.
Two cornercase useful feats required for entry, aswell as a skill preq. that needs to be modified (K:the planes are a CC skill for normal sorcerers).
Now what do you get?
9/10 casting, the lost level being at lvl 10 so you could always drop out if you wanted to.
Ability boosts, quite many of them.
A nice ability to increase damage a few times per day, if that's you shtick.
Bonus spells, which is the reason to pick the PrC to start with.
Some minor bonii and resistance, some other nice things.

It's my favourite Sorc PrC, if I want a Shadowcraft Mage I'll stick with Beguiler entrance and Incatatrix is setting specific.

[Kuroimaken]

Sublime Chord is probably tier two

Why? It grants 9th level spells in 10 levels.

And it requires at least 10th level to enter. Your point being?

Er...coupled with a dual progression class...something? Eh, it's better than the normal bard spell progression, that's my point.

No argument there. Though the class is actually better as a two-level dip (for Song of Arcane Power) then switching to a PrC that grants arcane casting.

I WAS going to say that dual-progression classes wouldn't be worth it, but now I'm getting the idea of an Ur-blime Theurge...

[Bozwevial]

Sublime Chord is probably tier two

Why? It grants 9th level spells in 10 levels.

And it requires at least 10th level to enter. Your point being?

Er...coupled with a dual progression class...something? Eh, it's better than the normal bard spell progression, that's my point.

No argument there. Though the class is actually better as a two-level dip (for Song of Arcane Power) then switching to a PrC that grants arcane casting.

I WAS going to say that dual-progression classes wouldn't be worth it, but now I'm getting the idea of an Ur-blime Theurge...

Which is what I had in mind in the first place. I guess if your DM doesn't shoot that down, it's a higher tier...But then again, that really applies to everything.

[Ithamar]

During Frenzy, berserker automatically fails all balance checks.

But they still get to make Reflex saves.  So he makes his save, then simply does a standing long jump out of the area of grease.  With his STR score in the mid 50's, a DC 20 jump check should be fairly simple.  Or if he is a smart little Berserker, he has already taken the Dragonborn Template and now has wings, so he'll just fly away from your piddly little grease puddle.

[ErhnamDJ]

Actually, it grants 9th level spells in 9 levels. The problem is that it gets them at the same level everyone else gets their ninth level spells. And it knows less spells and gets less spells per day than a sorcerer.

[bogsnes]

The reason Sublime Chord is tier 2 is (as the sorcerer) the power of a tier 1, with limited versatility (due to few spells known)---

[anomalousman]

Master of Nine is a very weak PrC.  The benefits are top notch (for a BSF), but the feat requirements utterly outweigh them.  Even in a gestalt build it takes up more resources than it provides.

RKV, however...

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Rainbow servant is also at least -1 tier for beguilers and dread necromancers.

Personally, though, I'd put being able to spontaneously cast every spell from the cleric list ought to be worth more than bumping a warmage from tier 4 to tier 3. 

I'd say a rainbow warsnake is at most tier two - it's basically a sorcerer on steroids (though, admittedly, with fewer prestige class options). 

On the plus side, if you prc into something that gives turning, being able to spontaneously DMM with cha-based spell casting is pretty win on its own.

[Bozwevial]

Master of Nine is a very weak PrC.  The benefits are top notch (for a BSF), but the feat requirements utterly outweigh them.  Even in a gestalt build it takes up more resources than it provides.

RKV, however...

RKV is probably worth -1 tier at the very least.

[jameswilliamogle]

Rainbow servant is also at least -1 tier for beguilers and dread necromancers.

Personally, though, I'd put being able to spontaneously cast every spell from the cleric list ought to be worth more than bumping a warmage from tier 4 to tier 3. 

I'd say a rainbow warsnake is at most tier two - it's basically a sorcerer on steroids (though, admittedly, with fewer prestige class options). 

On the plus side, if you prc into something that gives turning, being able to spontaneously DMM with cha-based spell casting is pretty win on its own.

Every DM I've played with makes that PrC go by the table, though...  Definitely nice in Epic, I think.

[Bozwevial]

Rainbow servant is also at least -1 tier for beguilers and dread necromancers.

Personally, though, I'd put being able to spontaneously cast every spell from the cleric list ought to be worth more than bumping a warmage from tier 4 to tier 3. 

I'd say a rainbow warsnake is at most tier two - it's basically a sorcerer on steroids (though, admittedly, with fewer prestige class options). 

On the plus side, if you prc into something that gives turning, being able to spontaneously DMM with cha-based spell casting is pretty win on its own.

Every DM I've played with makes that PrC go by the table, though...  Definitely nice in Epic, I think.

Yeah, but text trumps table.

[woodenbandman]

Master of Nine is a very weak PrC.  The benefits are top notch (for a BSF), but the feat requirements utterly outweigh them.  Even in a gestalt build it takes up more resources than it provides.

Not so. Adaptive style is useful at low levels involving being a swordsage, and dodge and improved unarmed strike can be had for a very inexpensive 1 level in Cobra Strike Monk, allowing you to dump dex, if you want. That leaves Blind Fight, which is situationally sort of handy, and Improved Initiative, which is a generally good feat. Now, for those 3 feats you actually use up, 2 of which are useful, you get 8 maneuvers known, 5 maneuvers READIED, and 2 stances, all from ANY discipline. It's PAINFULLY easy to meet the requirements of maneuvers when you have 2 or 3 initiator classes. Add those maneuvers onto your Crusader levels, and you'll be able to ready 11 or so maneuvers, and get 9 of them granted, which makes it very easy to beam spam with stuff like Time Stands Still (gotten by taking the low level Diamond Mind maneuvers on your warblade dip), Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike (swordsage), Tornado Throw(swordsage)... ALL recovered every 3 turns, if you want.

As long as your Crusader initiator level is high enough and you meet the requisite number of maneuvers known, you can put ANY maneuver on your crusader recovery mechanic, and spam them all day long.

Don't even include the tasty dual stances for stuff like Thicket of Blades + Martial Spirit + Stone Power for 20 or more points of damage soak per turn, for tanking things, or Iron Guard's Glare + Pearl of Black Doubt for making your allies and yourself hard as hell to hit. Or the nice Mastery of Nine ability for +14 on all damage rolls you make as part of a Time Stands Still or a Tornado Throw. No, just ignore those.

Still a very weak prestige class?

Ruby Knight Vindicator is disgustingly good. Multiple Travel Devotions per turn? Multiple counters per turn? Multiple DMM quickened spells per turn? Even if it's eratta'd to 1/round (it was, but I think it's bunk), it's still really fucking good.

Also, at-will cleric casting and divine metamagic options along with CHARISMA based spellcasting is clearly no lower than tier 1. Problem is, it's only available at levels 16 plus without cheese.

[anomalousman]

Yes, it's still a weak prestige class.  I was so keen on Mo9, and built many variations of this kind of build for arena games.  And the sad fact was that when I gave up on Mo9 I was able to use the weak levels and feats (and better BAB) and replace them with some crazily strong levels and feats to make a demonstrably superior fighter.  I agree that the maneuver and skill prereqs are trivial, but you can do some amazing things with a few extra feats if you try hard.  Plus, you still get the high level maneuvers - you just have to choose between the warblade set (the correct choice) and crusader (looks good too, but they kept coming off second best) and you get almost as many high level maneuvers anyway.

There's a bug in your calculations, by the way.  You can get at most +9 damage to your strikes with Mo9 - there are only 9 disciplines.