Author Topic: Food for Thought, Basic: Sticking feathers up your butt  (Read 8472 times)

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Josh

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Food for Thought, Basic: Sticking feathers up your butt
« on: March 04, 2009, 04:21:07 AM »
Sticking feathers up your butt, does not make you a chicken

1) Games are what they are.  (About as close to a zen koan as you are likely to see in gaming.)
2) Games are not what they are not
3) Games are the sum of their parts1) Games are what they are.
If you have systems for fighting, you have a game that is at least partly about fighting

DnD is a fighting game.  As evidenced by all the rules about fighting.

2) Games are not what they are not
If you do not have a system for something, the game is not about that.

DnD is not about internal conflict, because there are no rules about internal conflict.

Sidebar: So, you can't have a Murder Mystery in a DnD adventure?
[spoiler]
The answer is you can have it, but it is not really the game, it frames the game.  (oh this will get more confusing still)

We are playing DnD we find a dead body.  We search it, find goblin semen and go off to kill goblins.  We are detectives right?  Well, no.  The GM knew the next adventure was to kill goblins, so he led you to it.  If you had failed that roll it would have been something else.  This is active participatory framing.  The end was decided already. 

As a quick aside:

Is this railroading?  Po-tay-toe Po-tah-toe.  We define railroading as the GM deciding the End point and How you will arrive there.  But it is close enough that some might consider it so.  I advise you not to play DnD then. 

Is this false choice railroading?  (This is when the PCs are presented with two choices but both are the same.)  No, there were manyways of figuring out that goblins did it.  The GM let you solve the problem the way you wanted to.

Is this fiat?  Oh god yes.  You made up the adventure and the in game reason the PCs would go.  Yes it is fiat. 


Politics, Dramatic Stories, Murder Mysteries.  These can all frame DnD games. 

[/spoiler]

3) Games are the sum of their parts
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 12:07:07 AM by Josh »
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RobbyPants

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2009, 09:55:14 AM »
This is probably semi-off topic, but what if the DM was running a more sandbox-style game?  So, if the PCs missed that first crucial clue, perhaps they'd just go off and do something else, and the DM wouldn't keep throwing new clues spur-of-the-moment to get them on the "right track"?  I think that point you made is more of a difference in DMing style than a limitation of the game itself.  Still, I'm arguing one of your analogies and not the point itself.

Aside from that, I agree with your point of:
Everything you can do in a game is what the game is.  That means if you have rules for fighting, you have a fighting game.  If you do not have rules for solving crimes, you do not have a crime solving game.
I think as soon as you have to start relying on house-rules or fiat to get a game to accomplish X, you are no longer playing that game.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2009, 09:57:32 AM »
When I first saw this thread title, I thought someone was making fun of Josh. :embarrassed
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2009, 10:34:03 AM »
Yeah, out of context, it's pretty damn funny.

Food for thought:
step one - identify what you're looking for in a good game.
step two - pick the most awesome game.
step three - stick feathers up your butt.

:p
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2009, 10:53:59 AM »
Yeah, out of context, it's pretty damn funny.

Food for thought:
step one - identify what you're looking for in a good game.
step two - pick the most awesome game.
step three - stick feathers up your butt.

:p

First thing I thought when I saw the thread title was "Damn, that'd itch."
Quote
I think as soon as you have to start relying on house-rules or fiat to get a game to accomplish X, you are no longer playing that game.
Depends, a certain amount of fiat must be built in(plot, setup, world, etc), but once you have to override the rules, or something comes up often enough that you wrote/declared a new rule for it, it's a new, but related game.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Cam_Banks

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2009, 11:05:05 AM »
So what's a generic rules set? Is it the basis for a game?

Generic rules + genre-based additions = game.

FATE was originally created to run an Amber Throne War campaign. Rob and Fred then sought the Dresden Files license. In the meantime, to test out some rules tweaks, they created Spirit of the Century. All three games (Kings, Dresden Files, SotC) are different games, with different genres (intrigue/swashbuckling fantasy, urban fantasy/horror, pulp action). You could define them all as "action adventure" but I think that'd be stretching the concept a little and possibly being unfair to the games themselves.

Cheers,
Cam
Managing Editor & Community Manager | Margaret Weis Productions

RobbyPants

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2009, 11:41:55 AM »
Depends, a certain amount of fiat must be built in(plot, setup, world, etc), but once you have to override the rules, or something comes up often enough that you wrote/declared a new rule for it, it's a new, but related game.
Is that fiat?  Maybe I don't know the exact definition of fiat.

I suppose the DM has to choose what to tell the players and what not to, and that could technically fall under fiat.  If the PCs walk half a mile from the tavern to the store, he doesn't describe in detail every single person they see along the way.  That level of minutia would be boring and slow the game to a crawl.  So, conversly, when the DM does describe someone they see, this automatically clues the players in that this person is "special".  Is that what you're talking about, Veekie?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 12:04:38 PM »
Pretty much, fiat is only bad when used to resolve conflict, IMO, and if that particular conflict if within the central focus of the game, the game's missing something.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Josh

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2009, 01:24:12 AM »
So what's a generic rules set? Is it the basis for a game?

No "generic rules set" functions very well, FATE included.  "Core rules sets" on the other hand there are a number that work well.  Savage worlds, Burning Wheel, FATE, d20, and Gumshoe.   


Quote
Generic rules + genre-based additions = game.

FATE was originally created to run an Amber Throne War campaign. Rob and Fred then sought the Dresden Files license. In the meantime, to test out some rules tweaks, they created Spirit of the Century. All three games (Kings, Dresden Files, SotC) are different games, with different genres (intrigue/swashbuckling fantasy, urban fantasy/horror, pulp action). You could define them all as "action adventure" but I think that'd be stretching the concept a little and possibly being unfair to the games themselves.
I have not seen Kings, but the other two are quite similar.  Differing largely in just grittiness.  That being said they are the most varied good core system.  Then again I have not seen dresden yet so I do have to withhold final judgment.

My hope is that dresden files is a workable dramatic game giving the world a second one.  That way when people say "dramatic game" my only possible recommendation is not Burning wheel.  I don't know if this is the case.
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Cam_Banks

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2009, 02:30:29 AM »
So what's a generic rules set? Is it the basis for a game?

No "generic rules set" functions very well, FATE included.  "Core rules sets" on the other hand there are a number that work well.  Savage worlds, Burning Wheel, FATE, d20, and Gumshoe.

That's a rather picky semantic distinction. We can call it "core rules set" if you like.

Core rules set + genre mods/supplement = game.

Cheers,
Cam
Managing Editor & Community Manager | Margaret Weis Productions

Josh

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2009, 04:04:03 AM »
So what's a generic rules set? Is it the basis for a game?

No "generic rules set" functions very well, FATE included.  "Core rules sets" on the other hand there are a number that work well.  Savage worlds, Burning Wheel, FATE, d20, and Gumshoe.

That's a rather picky semantic distinction. We can call it "core rules set" if you like.

Core rules set + genre mods/supplement = game.

More like game = Core(setting, special conditions)

That is still disingenuous.  Most of these Core sets choose games that happen to coincide with the style of game.  SW is all AA settings, BW all dramatic, FATE had dresden and they made a Pulp adventure out of the rules. 

Notice also that Fred Hicks and Luke Crane dropped their core rules when they did not work (Don't rest your head and Project Donut). 

Were you trying to go somewhere?
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Cam_Banks

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2009, 10:53:47 AM »
More like game = Core(setting, special conditions)

That is still disingenuous.  Most of these Core sets choose games that happen to coincide with the style of game.  SW is all AA settings, BW all dramatic, FATE had dresden and they made a Pulp adventure out of the rules.

I actually think BW is more action-adventure with some dramatic elements thrown on, but that's just my opinion. FATE's genesis wasn't just "Dresden with pulp adventure made out of the rules." I think that demonstrates a lack of understanding of what "core rules sets" are capable of once you add genre or thematic rules additions. FATE has been used for intrigue-heavy drama, action-adventure, horror, and so forth not only by its designers but by its extensive fanbase, who have (with very little extra effort) made good use of its extensible rules set to replace other games.

Quote
Notice also that Fred Hicks and Luke Crane dropped their core rules when they did not work (Don't rest your head and Project Donut).

So what? Fred was interested in playing with some interesting new rules and came up with a setting for them. Designers don't necessarily need their games to use the same rules all the time. Green Ronin could have used True20 for its Song of Ice and Fire RPG, but they decided to write some new rules. They could have easily worked the social conflict rules for ASOIAF into True20. 

Quote
Were you trying to go somewhere?

Absolutely. And I think it's certainly possible that sometimes, if you wear the skin of a wolf, you can become a wolf.

Cheers,
Cam
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Josh

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2009, 05:51:06 PM »
Quote
Absolutely. And I think it's certainly possible that sometimes, if you wear the skin of a wolf, you can become a wolf.
Oh that's where you were going.

No, things do not change without a mechanisim.

No one becomes a wolf it takes training and trying.

It is the difference between wishing and trying.
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Cam_Banks

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2009, 06:20:42 PM »
Oh that's where you were going.

No, things do not change without a mechanisim.

No one becomes a wolf it takes training and trying.

It is the difference between wishing and trying.

So far you're not disagreeing with me. :)

Cheers,
Cam
Managing Editor & Community Manager | Margaret Weis Productions

Josh

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2009, 07:50:29 PM »
It is possible to get things by wishing.  Just not likely.

A better use of time is trying.  And it is poor advice to say 'you should wish things were better'
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Cam_Banks

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2009, 09:41:59 PM »
It is possible to get things by wishing.  Just not likely.

A better use of time is trying.  And it is poor advice to say 'you should wish things were better'

You have succeeded in completely misunderstanding my point. Perhaps I shouldn't have used some animal-related analogy.

Cheers,
Cam
Managing Editor & Community Manager | Margaret Weis Productions

Josh

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2009, 09:54:38 PM »
It is possible to get things by wishing.  Just not likely.

A better use of time is trying.  And it is poor advice to say 'you should wish things were better'

You have succeeded in completely misunderstanding my point. Perhaps I shouldn't have used some animal-related analogy.


OK then just explain the point. 


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Cam_Banks

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2009, 10:08:13 PM »
OK then just explain the point. 

You can take a core rules set that has no sharply defined focus and apply a genre or templated set of tweaks or rules to it to create a game that exploits that genre. It is possible to do so without "sticking feathers up its butt" but rather "putting on the skin of the wolf." It isn't wishing for it to happen, it is a case of taking a reliable base and using it for multiple genres.

You seem to be trying to make the point that a set of rules is only good for one genre or type of game. This isn't even true of some games that DON'T have additional rules sets. Malcolm Craig's Cold City is an example of a game that can be used for pulp, horror, "arthouse" drama, even black humor, without changing a single rule. However, in most cases, once you have a set of rules that work well for you, it's possible to run games in multiple genres without replacing the game rules entirely.

Cheers,
Cam
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Josh

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2009, 10:40:06 PM »
OK then just explain the point. 

You can take a core rules set that has no sharply defined focus and apply a genre or templated set of tweaks or rules to it to create a game that exploits that genre. It is possible to do so without "sticking feathers up its butt" but rather "putting on the skin of the wolf." It isn't wishing for it to happen, it is a case of taking a reliable base and using it for multiple genres.
Absolutely no game works well that has a template design.

Games can fit other situations, but they need two things:

1) They need to happen to be the right fit
2) They need to be redesigned, not templated

SW, Burning wheel, all are the same basic genre.  The only good game that kinda sorta fits is FATE.  But, it is a toolbox.  Less a game than a bunch of rules.  The two primary implementations are SotC and Dresden.  So Pulp and (what might be) urban fantasy/Detective. 

Quote
You seem to be trying to make the point that a set of rules is only good for one genre or type of game. This isn't even true of some games that DON'T have additional rules sets. Malcolm Craig's Cold City is an example of a game that can be used for pulp, horror, "arthouse" drama, even black humor, without changing a single rule. However, in most cases, once you have a set of rules that work well for you, it's possible to run games in multiple genres without replacing the game rules entirely.
I will have to check this out.

But this is one indie game.  And of the Hundred or more games I do know there are no other examples.  So I will accept this might be the exception in theory.
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Cam_Banks

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Re: Food for Thought: Sticking feathers up your butt
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2009, 11:06:29 PM »
I will have to check this out.

But this is one indie game.  And of the Hundred or more games I do know there are no other examples.  So I will accept this might be the exception in theory.

Or maybe it's the kind of design we should be looking at.

Cheers,
Cam
Managing Editor & Community Manager | Margaret Weis Productions