Author Topic: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster  (Read 23275 times)

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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #120 on: March 05, 2009, 09:51:16 AM »
How is he casting spells while in "form of Dire Tortoise"?

I'd agree if infinite loops or NI loops were not allowed, though (thought bottle, i guess).

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2009, 10:01:34 AM »

Shapechange says: "You can change form once each round as a free action"

The Rules says: "You can also take free actions during the surprise round"

So, while it may be a dire tortoise one sees to start with, it is then a choker one sees cast thrice (or more times than that if the caster gates in a dragon or whatever, fusions with it, Time Stops, and psychically reforms itself to have a bunch of Multispell feats).

I am rather fond of the Extra Familiar feat, if only for the ability to tote around more of the ring from Complete Arcane called SPELL-BATTLE. Just in case someone should get it in their head to try something tricksy. Also because then, in case of a real emergency, they have to choose which tortoise they want to sling spells at (go, go Gadget mundane disguises!) (Aren't there some ways around mundane disguises? I thought there were, but can't for the life of me remember them).

Because once everyone has used up all their Contingencies, it then defaults to who has the most other ways to stop the apocalypse.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2009, 10:26:00 AM »

Shapechange says: "You can change form once each round as a free action"

The Rules says: "You can also take free actions during the surprise round"

So, while it may be a dire tortoise one sees to start with, it is then a choker one sees cast thrice (or more times than that if the caster gates in a dragon or whatever, fusions with it, Time Stops, and psychically reforms itself to have a bunch of Multispell feats).

I am rather fond of the Extra Familiar feat, if only for the ability to tote around more of the ring from Complete Arcane called SPELL-BATTLE. Just in case someone should get it in their head to try something tricksy. Also because then, in case of a real emergency, they have to choose which tortoise they want to sling spells at (go, go Gadget mundane disguises!) (Aren't there some ways around mundane disguises? I thought there were, but can't for the life of me remember them).

Because once everyone has used up all their Contingencies, it then defaults to who has the most other ways to stop the apocalypse.
Sounds strong.  Can he fusion with the creature under a Time Stop?  I thought you couldn't target other creatures.

Also, still not sure on this one: how is the caster a Dire Tortoise 24/7?

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #123 on: March 05, 2009, 10:57:39 AM »
Ok, for Mindsight you would need to cast Fusion on a creature with the Telepathy special ability. You are already casting Fusion on some Dragon to get the prereqs for epic spellcasting. Then I suppose you cast Psychic Reformation to get Epic Casting and Mindsight. I guess you'll need 2x powerstones of Fusion because you can't cast it with a Wish. I also though each epic spell has to be researched, each one is a few million gp on average. So in the end each time you pull this trick you're looking at an investment of about 5000gp and probably around 2500xp, that's pretty expensive.

I think we'd need to see a build to see how this all is supposed to come together.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #124 on: March 05, 2009, 11:02:13 AM »
Ok, for Mindsight you would need to cast Fusion on a creature with the Telepathy special ability. You are already casting Fusion on some Dragon to get the prereqs for epic spellcasting. Then I suppose you cast Psychic Reformation to get Epic Casting and Mindsight. I guess you'll need 2x powerstones of Fusion because you can't cast it with a Wish. I also though each epic spell has to be researched, each one is a few million gp on average. So in the end each time you pull this trick you're looking at an investment of about 5000gp and probably around 2500xp, that's pretty expensive.

I think we'd need to see a build to see how this all is supposed to come together.
Plus the Astral Spell costs, plus the craft contingent spell cost, plus the legacy item costs, plus the base costs of knowing all these spells, plus the psychic reformation costs, plus the Wish costs, plus the costs for the focus components, plus any other equipment costs, costs to keep up any minions or cohorts (golem costs, undead costs, etc), costs for genesis...  and preferably without using an infinite cash loop.  I don't see it happening, personally, but I'd like to be proven wrong.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 11:07:28 AM by jameswilliamogle »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #125 on: March 05, 2009, 02:17:21 PM »
Updated my build, including items, but not scribing costs or material components. He's a bit under wealth, so it should be fine. I included an optional section on him using Genesis to make his own demi-plane, and a few possibilities that opens up.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #126 on: March 05, 2009, 06:33:10 PM »
Ok, for Mindsight you would need to cast Fusion on a creature with the Telepathy special ability.

I guess you'll need 2x powerstones of Fusion because you can't cast it with a Wish.

I also though each epic spell has to be researched, each one is a few million gp on average.

Okay, doing these in order.

You can get a Pseudodragon familiar and swap its Alertness feat for Mindsight. That way you don't lose a feat.

In the Psiotheurgy article in Dragon #349?, there's a feat which allows magic items comtaining psionic powers to be crafted, so you can just get scrolls of Fusion (or Timeless Body if you're that paranoid about gods).

Also, I think there's a way to get cheaper epic spells than that. We'll definitely want the permanent immunity to Disjunction epic spells, though I'm not sure if we'll be able to fit it in the build. It will probably require Incantatrix.

But... once we have epic spells, anything we want to fight has epic spells.

Also... all day Shapechange? Easy. Just need a high enough caster level and a Rainbow Falls.

Maybe we can get an epic spell to make that Fusion permanent? What creature is most powerful? I've been thinking a prismatic dragon, but if we can find something with full manifesting, that may be preferable. It still needs loads of hit dice, though. Perhaps we should go with cleric casting? I don't know. I haven't had time to parse these thoughts.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #127 on: March 05, 2009, 11:40:21 PM »
Where / what is Rainbow Falls?  How is he boosting CL?  If both Fusion and Psychic Reformation can be used via magic items, then can't the Binder, too?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #128 on: March 05, 2009, 11:43:26 PM »
Rainbow Falls is a magical location that grants you for a year the ability to triple the duration of a transumation spell 1xday, costs 2000 gp. Add a metamagic rod of extend, and shapechange lasts more than a day per casting. From CMage, I think.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #129 on: March 05, 2009, 11:49:28 PM »
Hrm no Rainbow Falls for the Binder...

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #130 on: March 06, 2009, 04:30:19 PM »
All that talk about Fusion with insanely powerful Gated creatures to steal their abilities got me thinking... How about this combo:

1) Gate something preposterously powerful in, that has Epic spellcasting and whatever else you want.
2) Use Fusion to fuse with it. Hell, maybe it is the gated thing that uses the Fusion power, if it has psionics.
3) Use Wish (or Miracle) to emulate the spell Similacrum, making a copy of the fused creature... (to get around the casting time, and you're going to be paying XP through the nose, anyway).
4) Repeat steps 1-3, but have the new creature fuse with the old Similacrum. In this way, you can have a powerful servant with basically every ability in the game. :D

I'm not sure how you'd determine if it still has enough HD to have the powers you want. I guess if you Gate an advanced version of whatever creature that has double the required hit dice, that would work (Like making a Similacrum of a 28 HD planetar, which would give you a normal planetar).

This is reminding me of the "Breaking the Core" thread.  :lmao
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 04:32:07 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #131 on: March 06, 2009, 08:11:58 PM »

I'd already considered something along those lines. I spent a long while last night prowling through books, looking for something that could manifest Fusion. Do you know of anything?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2009, 08:22:45 PM »

I'd already considered something along those lines. I spent a long while last night prowling through books, looking for something that could manifest Fusion. Do you know of anything?
A 40th level psion?  (Half-fiend or half-celestial, of course. :D ) Aren't there some gem dragons that manifest as psions? I forget which book they were in, though. Maybe just a web enhancement, or something.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #133 on: March 07, 2009, 12:06:19 AM »

Gem dragons... I'll have to look into that.

Straw_Man

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #134 on: March 07, 2009, 04:59:09 PM »

  So as it stands now the CO Wiz is Gating in creatures with epic spellcasting and then craeting super servants with it?  :bigeye I give up  :banghead Restraint is not in the CO lexicon.

"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #135 on: March 07, 2009, 05:00:59 PM »

  So as it stands now the CO Wiz is Gating in creatures with epic spellcasting and then craeting super servants with it?  :bigeye I give up  :banghead Restraint is not in the CO lexicon.


:lmao It was just an idea...
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #136 on: March 07, 2009, 05:33:31 PM »

  So as it stands now the CO Wiz is Gating in creatures with epic spellcasting and then craeting super servants with it?  :bigeye I give up  :banghead Restraint is not in the CO lexicon.

That is a little extreme. My build is much more simple then Phaedrus's, I hesisitate to say it but I think my build on the front page is done (barring a few last minute tweaks).

I think in a day or so I (or anyone else) can set up a thread specifically for builds to take down my (or Phaedrus's) build. I'm working on a scoring metric to sort out the best of the builds.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #137 on: March 07, 2009, 05:49:48 PM »
My build is much more simple then Phaedrus's, I hesisitate to say it but I think my build on the front page is done (barring a few last minute tweaks).

I think in a day or so I (or anyone else) can set up a thread specifically for builds to take down my (or Phaedrus's) build. I'm working on a scoring metric to sort out the best of the builds.
Eh, I thought I basically just took your build and finished/expanded it. You weren't using several resources which I think any wizard who calls himself even remotely optimized should be, like exploiting the heck out of the Shapechange power, and your familiar's extra actions (unless you go with Abrupt Jaunt, or something, but at the higher levels, I think a familiar is arguably worth more).

Then I added the hidden clone setup from an actual character I'm playing in Tshern's PbP game, and the Genesis cheese as an example of how insane things can really get, if we want. And I incorporated a couple of suggestions from other posters, like the Rainbow Falls magical location. At its core, it's still basically the same build, though.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #138 on: March 07, 2009, 06:07:48 PM »
My build is much more simple then Phaedrus's, I hesisitate to say it but I think my build on the front page is done (barring a few last minute tweaks).

I think in a day or so I (or anyone else) can set up a thread specifically for builds to take down my (or Phaedrus's) build. I'm working on a scoring metric to sort out the best of the builds.
Eh, I thought I basically just took your build and finished/expanded it. You weren't using several resources which I think any wizard who calls himself even remotely optimized should be, like exploiting the heck out of the Shapechange power, and your familiar's extra actions (unless you go with Abrupt Jaunt, or something, but at the higher levels, I think a familiar is arguably worth more).

Then I added the hidden clone setup from an actual character I'm playing in Tshern's PbP game, and the Genesis cheese as an example of how insane things can really get, if we want. And I incorporated a couple of suggestions from other posters, like the Rainbow Falls magical location. At its core, it's still basically the same build, though.

I've been thinking of a more elequant way of saying it, but I wanted to give the mundanes an 'Easy Mode'. Also, while I could see myself getting to play something like my build, most groups I've played in would have one or two problems with your build. Generally things like never leaving your demi plane or going everywhere as a Minotaur/Giant Tortoise. Not that those aren't valid tactics, just most gamers I've played with are squeamish about things appearing cheesy.

As yardsticks go, if they can beat my build, then their build should be pretty good. They should be able to use that build in any campaign and not feel like a burden. If they can beat your build then that's even better, they'd probably make for a great BBEG.

Either way hopefully everyone can collaborate and maybe learn a few new tricks.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster
« Reply #139 on: March 08, 2009, 02:52:05 PM »
The demiplane crap was not really meant to be used. Just as an example of what we could do.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]