Author Topic: The Food For Thought Project  (Read 18281 times)

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Josh

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2009, 04:03:39 AM »
Sorry, my previous experiences color my view of this. I must say, Josh has been doing a lot better, though the subjective/objective threads could use some cleaning up

First, make some kind of point or statement, or you are just blowing air around.  Were your previous experiences that I told you you were wrong?  Were you?  This is passive aggressive name calling by proxy bullshit.  This is more assholic than anything I have ever said.  I at least insult you directly and take responsibility for it.

I am not "doing better" or rather I am doing the same and I just simplified everything so more people can understand it.  And I intentionally created a situation where people are unable to defend with emotion.  And I have worked hard to anticipate and preemptively negate any arguments.  So yes in a sense I am doing better.  But in the important sense I am saying exactly the same things.

That being said, these threads have resulted in more good feedback then all other feedback on this board put together.  Even bad feed back has been good for increasing the clarity of the discussion. 


That being said:

Lack of response = everyone thinks it's perfect
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emissary666

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2009, 04:06:28 AM »
My previous experience are you using primarily subjective arguments and ignore most of the objective. Also, I do not mean to throw any insults, I just have a hard time not insulting people. Though, your "simplifying" makes you seem a lot less assholy
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 04:11:16 AM by emissary666 »
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Josh

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2009, 04:18:02 AM »
My previous experience are you using primarily subjective arguments and ignore most of the objective. And, I do not mean to throw any insults, I just have a hard time not insulting people.

1) That is not necessarily wrong.  Subjective arguments are perfectly valid in many cases.

2) It is likely that you did not understand.  You would have been better served to ask questions in that regard. 
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Prime32

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2009, 11:20:36 AM »
That being said:

Lack of response = everyone thinks it's perfect
Or that everyone is pyrophobic. In fact, that's often the case with "debate threads".

Josh's threads make me sigh at my screen a lot. There, I said it. :blink
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 11:22:39 AM by Prime32 »
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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2009, 01:34:16 PM »
That being said:

Lack of response = everyone thinks it's perfect
Or that everyone is pyrophobic. In fact, that's often the case with "debate threads".

Josh's threads make me sigh at my screen a lot. There, I said it. :blink
Or people are hoping that if they ignore it it'll go away.  Don't bump things that annoy you, eh?
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Josh

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2009, 05:25:12 PM »
That being said:

Lack of response = everyone thinks it's perfect
Or that everyone is pyrophobic. In fact, that's often the case with "debate threads".

Josh's threads make me sigh at my screen a lot. There, I said it. :blink

Then the threads are for "everyone" they rationalize actual debate. 

As for this, emotional reaction.  Not much of a point.  Here is a case where taking a stance would help you figure out what the issue you have is.

Or people are hoping that if they ignore it it'll go away.  Don't bump things that annoy you, eh?
Actually people rarely "think" much at all.  The point I was making is "On a message board silence is assent."  Like it or not that is how the medium functions.

Even if they annoy you (or especially if they annoy you), they may annoy you because they are true. 

Annoy is a valid subjective claim.  Now take a stance.
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emissary666

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2009, 05:30:18 PM »
So the better the thread the less posts?
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Josh

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2009, 06:23:15 PM »
So the better the thread the less posts?
No.

Threads with no dissent are more perfectly formed.

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Straw_Man

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2009, 06:57:05 PM »
So the better the thread the less posts?
No.

Threads with no dissent are more perfectly formed.


  Or are based on tautology. I get the impression you don't argue to reach a new conclusion, your arguments are propped to reach a conclusion you have in mind already.

  I for one dislike posting in a thread where I'm declared unilaterally wrong, and while that hasn't happened to me I've seen it done before by you Josh.  Tone wise you do that less in these new threads, but if you believe the silence is assent i think you do yourself an intellectual disservice. You've just browbeaten and intimidated those who don't agree with you but lack the tools to debate you.
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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2009, 08:14:22 PM »
That being said:

Lack of response = everyone thinks it's perfect
Or that everyone is pyrophobic. In fact, that's often the case with "debate threads".

Josh's threads make me sigh at my screen a lot. There, I said it. :blink
This is it, mostly, once it reaches a certain level of pyromancy, I don't bother posting, it just vanishes into the flames anyway, until the thread dies or someone fans the flames.
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Josh

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2009, 08:49:02 PM »
So the better the thread the less posts?
No.

Threads with no dissent are more perfectly formed.


  Or are based on tautology.
Again a baseless accusation

Quote
I get the impression you don't argue to reach a new conclusion, your arguments are propped to reach a conclusion you have in mind already.

I don't "argue" to do so no.  I present a concept, of course I had it in mind.  How would I have written it otherwise?



Quote
I for one dislike posting in a thread where I'm declared unilaterally wrong,
Don't be wrong.

Quote
and while that hasn't happened to me I've seen it done before by you Josh.  Tone wise you do that less in these new threads, but if you believe the silence is assent i think you do yourself an intellectual disservice.

I believe nothing.  Silence means you don't care to respond, that the others argument stands as it, to the audience it is proposed to.  If you don't agree, make a point.  How is an argument negated by nothing? 

The key to this argument happens much later, so you may not see it now.  In the future when the claim is made "Game X is "Bad" because of Y."  And the person says "No because of (irrelevant)(fallacy)(irrelevant)(wrong)(Bad point)" you then point them to the right spots.  When I say "Game X is bad because you use fiat" we divorce the argument from the emotions of the game.

Quote
You've just browbeaten and intimidated those who don't agree with you but lack the tools to debate you.
That's fair.  I am trying to be less confrontational with people who don't know any better. 
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Nachofan99

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2009, 11:53:11 PM »
Quote
  Or are based on tautology. I get the impression you don't argue to reach a new conclusion, your arguments are propped to reach a conclusion you have in mind already.

  I for one dislike posting in a thread where I'm declared unilaterally wrong, and while that hasn't happened to me I've seen it done before by you Josh.  Tone wise you do that less in these new threads, but if you believe the silence is assent i think you do yourself an intellectual disservice. You've just browbeaten and intimidated those who don't agree with you but lack the tools to debate you.

Could not agree with Straw_Man more.

Josh

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2009, 12:29:01 AM »
Quote
  Or are based on tautology. I get the impression you don't argue to reach a new conclusion, your arguments are propped to reach a conclusion you have in mind already.

  I for one dislike posting in a thread where I'm declared unilaterally wrong, and while that hasn't happened to me I've seen it done before by you Josh.  Tone wise you do that less in these new threads, but if you believe the silence is assent i think you do yourself an intellectual disservice. You've just browbeaten and intimidated those who don't agree with you but lack the tools to debate you.

Could not agree with Straw_Man more.

Good, if you agree so strongly it should be easy to provide an example.
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Straw_Man

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2009, 12:48:02 AM »

  I'm not going to argue, yet, I have a feeling there's an argument your going to unveil down the thread and I'm interested to hear it. Part of my contention is that you seem to be employing a positivist framework and I feel their only useful at a rudimentary level of discourse. Am I misinterpreting you

  Going back to tautology I find your basic assumptions are so framed that they derive from each other in a recursive loop. I will reread your posts again and identify the ones I feel fall into this category.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

Josh

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2009, 08:14:38 AM »

  I'm not going to argue, yet, I have a feeling there's an argument your going to unveil down the thread and I'm interested to hear it. Part of my contention is that you seem to be employing a positivist framework and I feel their only useful at a rudimentary level of discourse. Am I misinterpreting you

I am setting up arguments and non-arguments and they are currently rudimentary, the tools to build the tools.
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Meg

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2009, 10:35:34 PM »
Reading this thread has my hair on end.

But then I have to put things in perspective.

When Josh says things like, "Good.  Don't be wrong" or "Defend your point then." I read it with emotion that I assume most people would see.  I hear it dripping with sarcasm or malice because when I've heard those words said, they were always associated with negative emotions.

But when I frame it with Josh's voice, my perception shifts.  Where I'm reading it with sanctimonious bullshit, that's not the way it was written.  He really means it to be neutral.  He honestly believes these are neutral statements.

Part of the problem is that I'm (we're) reading Josh's statements as someone else may have written them and applying features to them that aren't fairly applied. 

What Josh has to realize, and he slowly is, is that the intention he has for a statement is not the intention we read because of societal standards.   He's spent so long shunning the norm that he missed out on these "Shared experiences". 

I'm really curious how many of the people who have this big problem with Josh and sigh and argue actually listen to the show.  Did you listen first or read first?  I'm willing to bet that it was the latter, but I'm curious.
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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2009, 11:55:35 PM »
I can never tell Josh from Zeke when listening to the show.

I have missed a lot of "shared experiences" yet I still read the posts as hostile. In a lot of the thread that Josh has posted in, I see a lot of bias on his part. Maybe it is because of my social maladaption, but I see Josh using a "I am right by default" attitude a lot.
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Josh

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2009, 12:28:00 AM »
Question then: in the cases you mention, was I right?

Because I usually act that way when I am right.when I am wrong I openly and completely admit it. 
It happens now and again.

I am trying to ornament my words prettily.  I am getting better at reading people, maybe my output will improve.

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Straw_Man

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2009, 01:55:41 AM »

  I don't hear malice, but I do hear arrogance and certainty.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

emissary666

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Re: The Food For Thought Project
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2009, 03:09:51 AM »
Question then: in the cases you mention, was I right?

Because I usually act that way when I am right.when I am wrong I openly and completely admit it. 
It happens now and again.

I am trying to ornament my words prettily.  I am getting better at reading people, maybe my output will improve.


No in fact, you were not right. They were arguments no one could win do to the subjective nature of them
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