Author Topic: Need help making a Truenamer fix  (Read 4222 times)

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Sinfire Titan

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Need help making a Truenamer fix
« on: February 25, 2009, 05:29:43 PM »


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bkdubs123

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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2009, 05:38:41 PM »
Have you seen THIS?

But anyway, suggestions for utterances...

No improvements to Word of Nurturing? Can I assume it gets better as you gain levels?

Decree of Wasted Roads: Target may teleport up to its base speed 1 each round as a swift action, or target vanishes for the duration, returns stunned.
Domineering Presence: Target is released from mental controls, gains Frightful Presence and other bonuses, or you control the target's actions for the duration.
Syllable of The Sight: Target gains True Seeing and Blind-Sight for the duration, or subject loses use of all senses for duration, as well as any blindsense, blind-sight or similar abilities.
Ethereal Shackles: Target is paralyzed for the duration, or target gains benefit of Freedom of Movement and gains an additional move action each round.
Elemental Chaos: Target gains immunity to chosen energy type, deals extra energy damage; or target gains vulnerability to chosen energy type, deals less energy damage.
Tabula Rasa: Target is healed of all ability damage/drain and negative levels, or target takes 1d8 points of ability penalty to three seperate ability scores, and gains 1d4 negative levels.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 06:03:00 PM by bkdubs123 »

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2009, 06:06:45 PM »
Have you seen THIS?

But anyway, suggestions for utterances...

The GitP is ok, if you want a class that fails 1/2 the time. Mine is more like the Warlock, but somewhere in Tier 3/Tier 2. High end of Tier 3, let's say.

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No improvements to Word of Nurturing? Can I assume it gets better as you gain levels?

Everything gets better as you level. That was one of the problems with the original (you had to waste Utterances Known to get the improved version of an ability). The higher you get on your Truespeak check, the better the utterance is (but failing the check means you get the bare minimum effect, which in and of itself is ok).

In example, let's say you are using Word of Nurturing. The DC is fairly low for it, so let's say you roll a 17 total. IF that beats the DC, the target heals 2hp/CL+Int modifier. If your 17 failed, then the target just heals up by your Int modifier. But if you beat the DC by 5, the target gets hit for CL*Int in healing. Beat the DC by 20? Target's back at full HP.

That's the kind of scaling I'm talking about. Also, CL is incredibly hard to boost for this class (as it is set by your ranks in Truespeak).

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Decree of Wasted Roads: Target may teleport up to its base speed 1 each round as a swift action, or target vanishes for the duration, returns stunned.

All ready have something similar: Temporal Twist. Grants move actions or makes target save or lose an action this turn.

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Domineering Presence: Target is released from mental controls, gains Frightful Presence and other bonuses, or you control the target's actions for the duration.

See Encrypted Decree or Compulsion.

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Syllable of The Sight: Target gains True Seeing and Blind-Sight for the duration, or subject loses use of all senses for duration, as well as any blindsense, blind-sight or similar abilities.

Way ahead of you there. That effect is the high end of the Percieve the Unseen utterance.

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Ethereal Shackles: Target is paralyzed for the duration, or target gains benefit of Freedom of Movement and gains an additional move action each round.

See above.

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Elemental Chaos: Target gains immunity to chosen energy type, deals extra energy damage; or target gains vulnerability to chosen energy type, deals less energy damage.

Beat you to it.

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Tabula Rasa: Target is healed of all ability damage/drain and negative levels, or target takes 1d8 points of ability penalty to three seperate ability scores, and gains 1d4 negative levels.

Again, beat you to it.


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SKRP

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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2009, 06:14:15 PM »
Although you already have movement-affecting Inertia Surge, I suggest:

Words of Weight: Target becomes extremely light (combined effects of water walk and skate) for one round or all movement speeds of target (land speed, swim speed, fly speed and so on) are set to 0 ft. for one round.

bkdubs123

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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2009, 06:20:09 PM »
I'm having a hard time understanding why you have seperated the utterances into levels at all now. Not that its a bad thing that everything scales with level, but if everything starts at a minimum power level, and a 1st level utterance can become as powerful as Heal (or better?) then what's the point of having levels at all?

I tried to give suggestions to better balance the GitP Truenamer (as Ziegander) but was entirely dismissed. I admit it was frustrating. Still, I enjoy the class so much that I can houserule Absolute Limit into oblivion, and slightly tweak how the Recitations work.

Finally, I'm all out of love, er rather, out of suggestions. That's literally all I've got for you.  :(

EDIT: What about something like - Target gains bonus feats, special attacks; or target loses feats, special attacks?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 06:25:56 PM by bkdubs123 »

dman11235

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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2009, 02:00:17 AM »
Step 1: Truespeak is not a skill.  It is a class feature.
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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2009, 12:19:25 PM »
I'm having a hard time understanding why you have seperated the utterances into levels at all now. Not that its a bad thing that everything scales with level, but if everything starts at a minimum power level, and a 1st level utterance can become as powerful as Heal (or better?) then what's the point of having levels at all?

The DC also scales with level. I was only using Heal as an example, I know better than to give a 1st level class feature that kind of power. It will be useful, but better than Cure spells as written. The original version was all ready on par with Lesser Vigor to begin with (if you could use it).

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I tried to give suggestions to better balance the GitP Truenamer (as Ziegander) but was entirely dismissed. I admit it was frustrating. Still, I enjoy the class so much that I can houserule Absolute Limit into oblivion, and slightly tweak how the Recitations work.

Finally, I'm all out of love, er rather, out of suggestions. That's literally all I've got for you.  :(

EDIT: What about something like - Target gains bonus feats, special attacks; or target loses feats, special attacks?

The GitP forums as a whole normally infuriate me. It may be due to the number of people who decry optimizers.

That is a decent idea. I'm sure I can work with it.

Step 1: Truespeak is not a skill.  It is a class feature.

I wanted to give Factotums a few toys for Truespeak by leaving in the feats that grant you weak utterances. Relax, boosting your checks won't break the class outright (that would just put it into mid-Tier 2).

When I make a fix, I at least take into account the highest possible power level the original could obtain. I'm well aware of how abusive skill boosters are, and this fix takes them into full account.


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Operation Shoestring

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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2009, 03:40:31 PM »
Step 1: Truespeak is not a skill.  It is a class feature.

Aww, but then your bard buddy can't aid another you....

I noticed that a truenamer has a bit of a niche with effects like spell rebirth and that utterance that restores a magic item.  They can restore dispelled spells and fix sundered magic items.  In effect truenamers can negate negations.  If this was built up into a real role rather than something nifty but not worth so many empty levels to get.... well, I would play one.

So give truenamers the ability to negate more negations.  Things that circumvent or negate "you must be this tall to ride" spell effects would be awesome.  Have effects that counter True Seeing, Freedom of Movement, Windwall and Teleportation effects.  The last one especially would both fit the truenamer and be both fun and useful. 

Example:

Legend (as in the thing on the map, not the myth) of True Location.

The Truenamer can reverse a Conjuration (Teleportation), Psychoportation, or equivalent effect by recapitulating the former location of his target.  This requires him to have line of sight and line of effect to the location from which the target departed.  A sucessfull truespeak check forces the target to make a will save or be returned to the square from which she left, bringing any creatures she moved with her along.  By increasing the DC of her truespeak check by 5 per target returned (including the originator of the teleportation effect), the Truenamer can specify specific creatures to bring back, while leaving the others at their new location.

This would be frikin' cool.

Another mechanic you might explore is letting the truename have the ability to "unravel" opponents spells and spell like abilities by making a Truename check against their caster level check or maybe against a concentration check (hearing your own truename, especially for the first time, would probably be very attention grabbing)

dman11235

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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2009, 05:10:06 PM »
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Relax, boosting your checks won't break the class outright (that would just put it into mid-Tier 2).

It's not that it's going to make it too powerful, it's that this is not what skills DO.  And really, making it a skill is akin to making a class based solely around the Tumble skill and having no other real abilities that do anything without said skill.  Sure there are classes that use the Tumble skill to great effect, but no class is solely about using that skill to kill things.  Then you get into some more problems with skill boosting items which does actually mess with the balance a lot (if you take a +30 item (ignoring miscellaneous bonus items like luck, morale, Tedisawesome, etc.) you are pretty much twice as powerful as someone who didn't.  Normally, not a problem, but since this makes it practically a requirement to take an item, that's reliance on items right there, or you're overpowered with items).  If it was a class based bonus, like class level+1/2 other class levels+some miscellaneous to get the bonus to where you want in class, then you have more control over the bonus amount, can balance it a heck of a lot easier, and the class isn't dependent on an item.  This would also actually allow Factotums a better access to Truespeak, since you can give them class features that emulate it, instead of requiring that they spend skill points.  Which is another problem with using skills: why does your class require that you spend skill points to function?  No other (base) class does that, does it?  Wouldn't you be just as well off giving a class feature that emulates skills but doesn't take up skill points?  This was the progression of reasoning for the Avatar fix to the fix.  It started off as a skill.  Problems arose of "hey this isn't a unique thing for the classes anymore, it's just an area where they were better", not that any other class could actually DO anything with a high check, but still.  And the fact that it is not really a good thing to require characters be built a certain way to even function (spend skill points).  The answer was to give all benders +1 skill point per level that had to be spent on the bending skill of that class.  And it should be obvious what the next step was here.
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Straw_Man

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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2009, 06:14:15 PM »
Quote
Relax, boosting your checks won't break the class outright (that would just put it into mid-Tier 2).

It's not that it's going to make it too powerful, it's that this is not what skills DO.  And really, making it a skill is akin to making a class based solely around the Tumble skill and having no other real abilities that do anything without said skill.  Sure there are classes that use the Tumble skill to great effect, but no class is solely about using that skill to kill things.  Then you get into some more problems with skill boosting items which does actually mess with the balance a lot (if you take a +30 item (ignoring miscellaneous bonus items like luck, morale, Tedisawesome, etc.) you are pretty much twice as powerful as someone who didn't.  Normally, not a problem, but since this makes it practically a requirement to take an item, that's reliance on items right there, or you're overpowered with items).  If it was a class based bonus, like class level+1/2 other class levels+some miscellaneous to get the bonus to where you want in class, then you have more control over the bonus amount, can balance it a heck of a lot easier, and the class isn't dependent on an item.  This would also actually allow Factotums a better access to Truespeak, since you can give them class features that emulate it, instead of requiring that they spend skill points.  Which is another problem with using skills: why does your class require that you spend skill points to function?  No other (base) class does that, does it?  Wouldn't you be just as well off giving a class feature that emulates skills but doesn't take up skill points?  This was the progression of reasoning for the Avatar fix to the fix.  It started off as a skill.  Problems arose of "hey this isn't a unique thing for the classes anymore, it's just an area where they were better", not that any other class could actually DO anything with a high check, but still.  And the fact that it is not really a good thing to require characters be built a certain way to even function (spend skill points).  The answer was to give all benders +1 skill point per level that had to be spent on the bending skill of that class.  And it should be obvious what the next step was here.

  .... Artificer?
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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2009, 06:47:52 PM »
Quote
It's not that it's going to make it too powerful, it's that this is not what skills DO.  And really, making it a skill is akin to making a class based solely around the Tumble skill and having no other real abilities that do anything without said skill.  Sure there are classes that use the Tumble skill to great effect, but no class is solely about using that skill to kill things.


Which is what attracted me to the Truenamer class to begin with. And when you think about it, Epic Spellcasting does use Spellcraft to help kill things.

That's what I'm doing with this. The Truespeak check itself isn't needed to use Utterances, it just improves them beyond the bare minimum effect to the point where they are actually useful. In effect the skill isn't killing them, the SLA is. The skill is just helping to make you more efficient at killing them.

Quote
Then you get into some more problems with skill boosting items which does actually mess with the balance a lot (if you take a +30 item (ignoring miscellaneous bonus items like luck, morale, Tedisawesome, etc.) you are pretty much twice as powerful as someone who didn't.  Normally, not a problem, but since this makes it practically a requirement to take an item, that's reliance on items right there, or you're overpowered with items).  If it was a class based bonus, like class level+1/2 other class levels+some miscellaneous to get the bonus to where you want in class, then you have more control over the bonus amount, can balance it a heck of a lot easier, and the class isn't dependent on an item.


That's something I'm painfully aware of. I'm taking cautious steps to avoid them becoming all-powerful by putting a hard cap on the abilities their utterances can duplicate. The Polymorph utterance I have listed up there? Limited to one of 4 forms based on the skill check's result. Those choices are set in stone and cannot be altered beyond the utterance itself.

Even at the highest possible skill check result, it just makes them into a Warlock. It alters the class the same way optimizing alters any class; by raising it one to two Tiers in power. Having a base Truespeak check of +70 just means you have a long time before you actually have to start rolling to beat the DC due to the Law of Resistance (yes, I kept it). It means you are going to be on par with other spontaneous casters in terms of sheer versatility, but you won't have the game-breaking material they have and will eventually run out of steam yourself (it takes a while though). It's akin to a Sorcerer going into Incanatrix to make his spells awesome, or an Erudite taking Spell To Power. Only less horrifically broken.

I'm trying to make this fix as close as possible to the original idea that WotC put into the book while still making the fix playable and reasonably balanced. This fix assumes the DM is using common sense, such as disallowing Item Familiar and restricting custom magic item creation (because those are easily abused, and broken in their own right). Both of these are optional on the DM's behalf, so if the DM allows it then it isn't the class fix that's the problem.

Yes, I'm stepping into the Oberoni Fallacy. I'm also assuming the people who will use this fix are competent gamers who use rational thinking when optimizing their characters or when allowing specific material. The ones who allow incredibly abuseable material like Custom Magic Items or the Item Familiar feat are not amongst those gamers, in my opinion.

And I am aware that there are other ways to pump skills. There's the divine spell Divine Insight, but that takes a Standard action to cast. They are wasting their first turn to get +8 (if they are using it from a wand) to their next Truespeak check. Inspire Competence only provides a +2 Competence bonus, not much. And a Factotum can only boost their Truespeak check 1/day. I'm taking precautions to make it so these options are viable, but somewhat impractical to rely on.

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This would also actually allow Factotums a better access to Truespeak, since you can give them class features that emulate it, instead of requiring that they spend skill points.

The Factotum can't emulate SLAs, only Ex abilities. There's a feat they can take to get Utterances, and they all ready have Truespeak as a class skill (just like Iajutsu Focus). They merely need to invest the proper resources into the ability in order to be decent at it.

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Which is another problem with using skills: why does your class require that you spend skill points to function?  No other (base) class does that, does it?


Artificer. Need I say more?

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Wouldn't you be just as well off giving a class feature that emulates skills but doesn't take up skill points?

Replace the Truenamer with the Artificer, then ask this question about it.

The answer would look something like Incarnum if you took the time to really think it through (I mean serious amounts of 6 degrees of seperation here). Only a lot more broken.

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This was the progression of reasoning for the Avatar fix to the fix.  It started off as a skill.  Problems arose of "hey this isn't a unique thing for the classes anymore, it's just an area where they were better", not that any other class could actually DO anything with a high check, but still.

I understand this. I'm selectively ignoring that part while making this fix. Think about how many classes have something that they are supposed to be good at, but others can do better in. There's too many to name, simply because of the sheer size of 3.5 in general.

In a way, both Incarnum and Martial Adepts have a similar problem. Feats can grant any character the same abilities they have. True they have unique class features that make them better than the others (save the Soulborn), and they are vastly superior at using those abilities than someone who spends the feats, but those abilities are no longer unique to the classes that they were made for.

Any Fighter can spend 8 of his feats to take Martial Study and Stance a bunch of times and get a ton of various abilities for it, just like anyone else can. But he won't be as good as the Warblade is with them, or anywhere near as versatile. Will he? Anyone can take Truespeech Training and the Minor Utterance feat half-a-dozen times to have a few tricks up their sleeves, but will they be as effective as an actual Truenamer?

I highly doubt it. They can get a bunch of 1st level utterances from each Lexicon, and at least one 2nd level utterance from the Evolving Mind (maybe more if they take Bonus Utterances at that point). But the best they can do doesn't compare to the real deal. They can get Word of Nurturing and Percieve the Unseen, but they will never have access to Profane Command or Invert the Sky.

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And the fact that it is not really a good thing to require characters be built a certain way to even function (spend skill points).  The answer was to give all benders +1 skill point per level that had to be spent on the bending skill of that class.  And it should be obvious what the next step was here.

That's just it; my Truenamer fix never has to spend the skill points to use their abilities. They can still buff the entire party or polymorph the Fighter into a killing machine. They won't be as strong without the ranks, but they can still provide for the party (their CL would be stuck as -3, but they aren't as reliant on it as other buffers are).

IE: A 17th level Truenamer with 0 ranks in Truespeak decides to hit the party's tank with Voice of Change. His Int mod is +10, so if he rolls decent (12 or higher), the party's tank just turned into an Iron Golem, or something (I haven't decided what the benefits would be). The duration? 5 Rounds, long enough to get him through the fight.

But let's say he failed the check due to not having a high Int modifier (let's just say he's focusing on the wrong stat). The party's tank would effectively be turned into a Troglodyte, thus gaining a huge NA bonus while retaining his equipment. The duration? Still 5 rounds.

What does not having the ranks mean? It means you can't get through SR very effectively, that's it. See where I'm going with this?


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bogsnes

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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2009, 07:59:10 AM »
Bard is also very dependant on a skill...

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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2009, 02:16:53 PM »
But not a skill check, most of the time.
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dman11235

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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2009, 02:30:16 PM »
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Artificer. Need I say more?

Does it need UMD to function, or does UMD just go really well with the class?

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The Factotum can't emulate SLAs, only Ex abilities. There's a feat they can take to get Utterances, and they all ready have Truespeak as a class skill (just like Iajutsu Focus). They merely need to invest the proper resources into the ability in order to be decent at it.

I said you'd have to make a class feature that has them emulate it.  In my mind that is a much better alternative to having a skill that shouldn't even be a skill for your class emulating, especially since you can do it as well as that class, because of how class skills work.  Which is yet another problem: one feat and everyone can be as good at truenaming as a truenamer.  Maybe not with all of the utterances, depending on how you learn them, but you're still as powerful, unless you arbitrarily raise the bonus for the Truenamer.

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Replace the Truenamer with the Artificer, then ask this question about it.

Actually, UMD is one skill that I don't like.  I feel that it should be a class feature or, better yet, a feat, but that doesn't feel right either, and I go back to it being a skill.  It's just an endless loop because of what the skill does.

See, skills should not be class feature worthy.  They are not class features, just like feats are not class features.  They do something else.  They do basic things that anyone can do, and people can get better at.  Examples being climb, tumble, jump, craft, and bluff.  That's what I'm getting at.
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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2009, 03:12:10 PM »
any comments on my suggestion?  bad?  Wrong direction?  or just not interesting?

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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2009, 03:30:23 PM »
any comments on my suggestion?  bad?  Wrong direction?  or just not interesting?

It's an interesting idea, something I will try to expand upon.

Does it need UMD to function, or does UMD just go really well with the class?

Two of it's major class features becomes largely useless if they don't use it. It can still try to function without UMD, but they won't be able to craft items or use wands as effectively if they don't use UMD.

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I said you'd have to make a class feature that has them emulate it.  In my mind that is a much better alternative to having a skill that shouldn't even be a skill for your class emulating, especially since you can do it as well as that class, because of how class skills work.  Which is yet another problem: one feat and everyone can be as good at truenaming as a truenamer.  Maybe not with all of the utterances, depending on how you learn them, but you're still as powerful, unless you arbitrarily raise the bonus for the Truenamer.

Then 5 feats in the original book become useless to anyone who isn't a Factotum or a Truenamer. That's akin to a DM denying someone access to Shape Soulmeld or Martial Study, despite having OKed the Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader. Things brings me back to the second-to-last point I made in my previous post.

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Actually, UMD is one skill that I don't like.  I feel that it should be a class feature or, better yet, a feat, but that doesn't feel right either, and I go back to it being a skill.  It's just an endless loop because of what the skill does.

See, skills should not be class feature worthy.  They are not class features, just like feats are not class features.  They do something else.  They do basic things that anyone can do, and people can get better at.  Examples being climb, tumble, jump, craft, and bluff.  That's what I'm getting at.

I see the point you are making. It still goes against what I want to accomplish with this fix.


Think about Speak Language (my least favorite skill). It's largely useless due to a high Int, party planning, or a single low-level spell. It's a useless skill to anyone who isn't going into a class like Seul Arcanamach. It has no impact on game play that is relevant, and is effectively a skill point lost every time you invest into it. There are a number of skills that have this problem (Martial Lore, Psicraft, Spellcraft, several Knowledge skills).

UMD and Truespeak, however, have a notable impact on gameplay. A single feat, magic item, or level dip makes every skill point you've invested into one of those two skills relevant and useful. Anyone can make use of them, and some classes make better use than anyone else (Artificer and Truenamer).

I know what I'm doing goes against the grain, but I dislike a class feature that you can't advance when multiclassing. Martial Adepts have a class feature that advances no matter what class they take. Hell, two whole styles have a need for a high skill check (Jump and Concentration) or a number of their maneuvers are useless. By making Truespeak into a skill, I've made the Truenamer a multiclass-friendly casting class (at least more so than the Warlock and Wizard).

In effect, Truespeech Training is the Tashalatora of Truenamers. Only you don't need it to be viable when multiclassing (you just need to know what classes to invest your levels into). Hell, you can completely neglect your Truespeak skill for the full 20 levels and still be able to do something useful.

Again, I admit you have a good point. But I'm weird; when I want to do something the hard way, I don't change my mind unless it's proven to be impossible for me to accomplish. I know I can accomplish this. I'm just asking for ideas on utterances here (you can critique the design when I've finished with the fix).
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 03:58:17 PM by Sinfire Titan »


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dman11235

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Re: Need help making a Truenamer fix
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2009, 11:18:22 PM »
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Then 5 feats in the original book become useless to anyone who isn't a Factotum or a Truenamer. That's akin to a DM denying someone access to Shape Soulmeld or Martial Study, despite having OKed the Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader. Things brings me back to the second-to-last point I made in my previous post.


The thing about Shape Soulmeld/Martial Study is that Shape Soulmeld is still less than half as powerful as being an Incarnate, because of the class features that raise the cap on essentia investment, and the fact that Incarnates have access to more soulmelds.  This makes the feat more or less a nifty trick, and the class a viable and unique option.  Same sort of thing happens with Martial Study, since IL determines the maneuver you can take, and martial adepts get so many more maneuvers and can refresh them.  I'll have to re-read the Truenamer to find the relationship between the feats there and the class.

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Again, I admit you have a good point. But I'm weird; when I want to do something the hard way, I don't change my mind unless it's proven to be impossible for me to accomplish. I know I can accomplish this. I'm just asking for ideas on utterances here (you can critique the design when I've finished with the fix).

Fair enough.  Good luck, you're gonna need it.  Since most every circumstance I can think of for it being a skill is better served as a class feature, or the skill isn't the focus.
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