Author Topic: [Old] Rules  (Read 10957 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
[Old] Rules
« on: February 25, 2009, 02:15:53 PM »
House rules in this thread.

Here is a class for transforming characters and giant robots.

Here is a work-in-progress which may be accepted as a playable class.

Guns have the stats of crossbows, but are 20/x3 weapons.




Comments?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 02:49:41 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Operation Shoestring

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 937
  • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
    • Email
Re: Rules
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2009, 05:11:34 AM »
Incarnum weapon is a pretty nifty deal for incarnates, so the automatic weapon enhancements hurts them some.  Enhancing their totem-bound claws is half the shtick for a totemist, so they suffer pretty heavily in relative power level- maybe some fix for this?

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Rules
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2009, 07:45:31 AM »
Incarnum weapon is a pretty nifty deal for incarnates, so the automatic weapon enhancements hurts them some.  Enhancing their totem-bound claws is half the shtick for a totemist, so they suffer pretty heavily in relative power level- maybe some fix for this?
Done. You can now assign the VoP-esque bonuses as you please, and you don't need an enhancement bonus to add, say, the keen property to your attacks.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Rules
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2009, 05:07:13 PM »
Tell me, are the rules for combining mecha broken-powerful or horribly weak?
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Prak, the Mad

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 648
    • Email
Re: Rules
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2009, 06:59:20 PM »
Tell me, are the rules for combining mecha broken-powerful or horribly weak?

honestly? I'm not sure balance matters at this point... You've banned the wizard and stripped clerics of their spells, you're allowing archivists but they can't gestalt, and you don't say anything about classes like Dread Necromancer or Beguiler, which can be gestalted as you haven't specifically disallowed such. Balance is out the window, and it's more a question of whether you want to bring it back in than whether a given set of rules is too powerful or weak.

woodenbandman

  • Moderator
  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Rules
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2009, 07:27:51 PM »
I think they're a bit weaksauce, tbh.

Heliomance

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
    • Email
Re: Rules
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2009, 08:33:44 PM »
How much cash do we start with? And if we take the actual VoP, does it stack with the stuff we get for free?

Operation Shoestring

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 937
  • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
    • Email
Re: Rules
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2009, 05:36:18 AM »
Is the saint template too cheap or does it work for this kinda game?

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Rules
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2009, 08:04:50 AM »
Tell me, are the rules for combining mecha broken-powerful or horribly weak?

honestly? I'm not sure balance matters at this point... You've banned the wizard and stripped clerics of their spells, you're allowing archivists but they can't gestalt, and you don't say anything about classes like Dread Necromancer or Beguiler, which can be gestalted as you haven't specifically disallowed such. Balance is out the window, and it's more a question of whether you want to bring it back in than whether a given set of rules is too powerful or weak.
Tropes for me: And A Diet Coke. :embarrassed It was artificers, not archivists, and their items are more vulnerable. DN/Beguiler aren't Tier 1.

I think they're a bit weaksauce, tbh.
What if a guy who attaches to you in the cloak slot grants you the benefit of his own magic cloak? (Such a character would probably pump a lot of gold into enhancing his cloak, or have it as a legacy item)

How much cash do we start with? And if we take the actual VoP, does it stack with the stuff we get for free?
Remember, in flavour terms no-one has magic items - it's all innate. I don't think combining VoP with this makes much sense. Maybe you can give up "items" for meldshaping - I'm not sure how well that would work.
Since you can sell magic items for full cost change your innate powers, you will probably have a lower-than-normal number of gold pieces spirit... pieces, though I haven't settled on an exact amount. In the mean time, work out the details of your legacy item.

Is the saint template too cheap or does it work for this kinda game?
It works... but you still need exalted feats to take it.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Aldgar

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 97
Re: Rules
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2009, 09:51:58 AM »
Rules for combining mecha are...weird.

Also, very vaguely worded.

For example, it doesn't say what kind of actions the augmenter can take, and how some interactions work; this is mainly due to these specifics not being asked about, I suppose.

Anyway, some clarity on the following matters, please:

0)Assuming Mecha #1(Base) and Mecha #2(Augmenter) combine...
*This requires a standard action from the Augmenter(#2).
*Presumably, the Mechas need to be in some sort of minimum distance from each other(not covered in the rules).
*The Base Mecha(#1) gains X(Number of #2's HD)+Y(#2's Constitution SCORE) Hitpoints, which are not temporary hitpoints, increase his maximum hitpoints for the duration of the combination, and go away if the combination ends(much like bonus HP from temporary constitution increases).
*The Base Mecha(#1) gains Increased Size as Bonus feat for the duration of the Combination.
*The Base Mecha(#1) gains various, slot-dependant benefits based on the Augmenter's(#2) role(s); this requires him to have the relevant magic item slot free and available.
*The augmenter(#2) gains effective total concealment, as it cannot be attacked as primary target during the combination.
*The Base Mecha(#1) takes full damage from all attacks, and additionally, the augmenter mecha(#2) takes half the damage the Base Mecha(#1) suffers. This leads to the combined mecha effectively having a Vulnerability(+50% damage) to EVERYTHING. Increased HP and two different HP pools mitigate this(somewhat).
*If either mecha is destroyed, the combination ends immediately.

Now, the problems:

1)Actions
Under the "Cannons" role entry, it says...
Quote
The base mech may take a standard action to allow the augmenter to use a spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability with a casting time of 1 standard action, or a full-round action to... you get the picture.
-snip-

This implies that the augmenter CANNOT normally cast spells, use (Su) or (Sp) abilities when combined. This is a severe limitation.

Furthermore, under the "Arms" role entry, it says...
Quote
The augmenter may attack in place of the base mech's attacks. It adds the base mech's Strength modifier as a bonus to its Strength score (or vice versa, if the base mech's Strength is higher), and deals damage as a creature of the combined mech's size.

This implies that the augmenter CANNOT attack independently from the base mech when combined. Even if he does, his attacks REPLACE the base mech's attacks, effectively halving the number of attacks they would have independently. This is a severe limitation.

So, my questions would be:

A) What kind of actions can an augmenter take while combined? My character concept will use the augmenter to boost himself/the party via Inspire Courage(possibly Dragonfire Inspiration). This requires Concentration to maintain -would such an action be possible? What about a -hypothetical- augmenter swordsage with the "Shadow jaunt" maneuver. Could he initiate it, and would it teleport the entire, combined mecha? What about Boosts and Counters?

B) What kind of actions can the *pilots* of the mecha take, apart from piloting their mechas?
The Champion class involves a literal transformation, thus circumventing this matter. The Mecha Pilot, however, is a seperate entity from his Mecha. While I assume he will not be able to act on his own(manifest powers, cast spells, etc) while controlling a Mecha, what about the situation when two mechas combine?
Are both pilots required to steer the Combined mecha, or can one pilot it and the other one perform other actions(such as manifesting Psionic repair damage to repair the Combined Mecha)?

2)Bonuses and Limitations of Combining Mecha
Under 0), I have attempted to give a short overview of the current mechanics of combining mecha.
This subitem shall deal with this topic in detail, while evaluating wether or not the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, or if it is worth combining at all.

Bonuses gained from Combining Mecha:
*Increased HP for Base Mech
*Total Concealment for Augmenter Mech
*Increased Size Bonus feat for Base Mech
*(Wings)Base Mech is treated as mounted; this allows for serious damage upgrades via Spirited charge, valorous weapons and the like
*(Legs)Base Mech may gain additional movement modes and/or increased movement speed; bonus to AC if augmenter has higher Dex
*(Arms)Augmenter Mech can attack instead of the Base Mech, benefits from increased size and strength
*(Cannons)Base Mech may transfer action to Augmenter Mech for spellcasting/manifesting/Sp/Su abilities; benefits from increased relevant ability score(s)
*(Armour)Base Mech takes 75% damage instead of 100%. The augmenter takes 75% damage instead of 50%, however, this 75% is based of the damage the Base mech takes.
[spoiler=Math]
Base Mecha = A
Augmenter Mecha = B

Both Mecha have combined, and take damage.

Normal:

Base Mecha takes X Damage. Augmenter takes X*0.5 Damage.
A = X, B = X*0.5

(Armour) augment combination:

Base Mecha takes X*0.75 Damage. Augmenter takes (X*0.75)*0.75 Damage.
A = X*0.75, B = X*0.5625[/spoiler]
This leads to an insignificant increase(+6.25%) of the damage the Augmenter Mecha takes, but to a significant decrease(-25%) of the damage the base Mecha suffers.
*(Head)Base Mech gains senses of Augmenter, gains bonus on Intimidate/Listen/Spot/Search based on Augmenter's ranks in these skills.

Penalties/Drawbacks/Limitations gained from Combining Mecha:
*Augmenter cannot cast spells/manifest/use Sp or Su abilities normally
*Augmenter cannot attack normally
*Augmenter takes damage when the combined mech is damaged; this leads to an effective Vulnerability against everything. Split HP pools mitigate this drawback somewhat
*Base mech loses access to (a) magic item slot(s)

Summary of the above, and my opinion on the matter

IMO, some augments are great(Armour, Wings), some are so-so(Legs, Head <-only if the augmenter has some seriously awesome senses akin to Mindsight that the base mech lacks!) and some are really, really bad(Arms, Cannons).

The problem of actions has been addressed already, and is in need of further clarification.

I also think that the bonus HP formula gained from combining mecha is a bit clunky, perhaps simply adding the Augmenter's HP as bonus HP to the Base Mecha could work.
Yes, I am aware that this would be *a lot* more powerful than the current mechanic, but due to the damage-taking mechanics of combined mecha, I am of the opinion that such an upgrade wouldn't be overpowered.
Of course, this is just that -my (probably not significant) opinion.

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Rules
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2009, 10:11:16 AM »
I'm glad you took the time to give such an in-depth analysis :) - I didn't want to put something in play without getting anyone's opinions on it. I'll post my responses in the class thread.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Flay Crimsonwind

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1310
  • Watching the World Burn in Magnificence
    • Email
Re: Rules
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2009, 08:41:49 PM »
As I'm making a bleach-like charrie, I'm buffing the sword to high hell. Just wanted to make sure Item Familiar and Ancestral Relic are allowed, since I know some DM's can be picky about it. I'm applying them to the legacy weapon for the extra boost to sword power from Ancestral relic (though what to apply after making it +10? dunno, dunno...) and the sentience/special abilities boost from Familiar.

Also, I thought that, if it's limited treasure, the alternate spending to enhance the relic would make Ancestral Relic relevant, but is there going to be so little treasure that it will barely be able to be used? And will I still need to spend a month in prayer in real-time buffing my sword? If so, I guess I'll replace it...
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 08:43:51 PM by Flay Crimsonwind »

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Rules
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2009, 11:39:57 PM »
Is there any way to get Unholy Toughness as part of my legacy item?  If so, what menu of ability is it equivalent to?
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Rules
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2009, 01:26:59 PM »
Okay, I know you're looking for WpL. I'll post something when I have access to my books. Assume standard gold for now.

Also, what does Wood think about Unholy Toughness?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 01:32:41 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Agita

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5465
  • SFT is mai waifu.
Re: Rules
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2009, 05:41:40 PM »
I could go for Unholy Toughness as well, honestly... Reflavored, of course. What with being a melee chara with only 12 Con due to MAD.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 05:43:16 PM by Agita »
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

Agita's Awesome Poster Compilation
Lycanthromancer's Awesome Poster Compilation

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Rules
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2009, 10:28:26 PM »
The ability is pretty big...it should probably be broken into two legacy abilities. One that's 1/2 Cha Mod(if higher than Con; multiply through if a fraction and round down at the end) and the higher tiered one that makes it full Cha mod.

I'd place the lesser version at the bottom of the middle tier(D?) and the greater version at the bottom of the upper tier(G?) and requiring the lesser version. Another good possibility is the top of lower tier for the lesser and the top of the middle tier for the greater. I probably like the second one better to be honest.

Hmm...though we are starting at level 6. I think I'll be overly nice on my design plan and make the lesser one the middle of the bottom tier(B?) and the greater one the middle of the middle tier(E). That'll let you start out with something but still make sure a somewhat appropriate cost(four levels of legacy abilities) is paid for something like 200 extra hit points at level 20.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Heliomance

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
    • Email
Re: Rules
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2009, 12:19:27 AM »
I thought I asked this somewhere already, but I can't seem to find the post.

If items have been refluffed to be inherent and internal, does that mean Wilding clasps aren't necessary?

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Rules
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2009, 06:32:25 AM »
I've added new rules on combining your attacks stolen from BESM, and further clarified the mecha rules.

I thought I asked this somewhere already, but I can't seem to find the post.

If items have been refluffed to be inherent and internal, does that mean Wilding clasps aren't necessary?
They're necessary. Wildshape is inherent and internal, after all.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 07:19:57 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

woodenbandman

  • Moderator
  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Rules
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2009, 03:07:25 PM »
I dunno about Unholy Toughness. I guess that if we're allowing Faerie Mysteries Initiate it'd only be fair to allow Unholy Toughness for a similar cost. Question is, are we allowing Faerie Mysteries Initiate?

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Rules
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2009, 06:18:12 PM »
Seems harmless enough to me in the context of the game.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."