Author Topic: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.  (Read 8321 times)

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Operation Shoestring

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Uhm, yeah, kinda a lot of possibly-s there, but this isn't completely worked out yet.
Anyway, I've started setting up a campaign, originally with the folks over at gaiaonline, but lack of interest there means I may be looking for players here.

The basic game set up is here, under the name "Shattered Mirror":
http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewforum.php?f=537851

It's still in progress and the rules aresubject to change, but right now it's going to feature level advancement similar to 2e Dual Classing. 

You start at level 6/0, and will progress to 6/1, 6/2, etc, with the first 6 levels eventually being gestalt using what effectively amounts to about the same rules that kbsnowowl came up with.

Classes may be limited to one side or another of the gestalt, however, as the goal is to get players to make good use of TOB, Incarnum and Psionics (TOM stuff as well, if there is interest), since we've all hashed through the usual caster and ubercharger stuff enough times.

The uncertainly lies in whether I'll be able to run this bundle of laughs - I have an upcoming trip to China, and RL always is fun like that, so this may not be able to get off the ground before fall.

Sill, I'd love to have suggestions and want to know if anyone is interested in this sort of game.  Also, what do you think of an anime-ish theme; ever since I had the idea, I kinda wanted have Incarnum-based Sailor Senshi in my game.

Rufei

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2009, 08:29:24 PM »
Looks a little funky, but I'd run with it if this anime theme is expanded a bit. Sailor Senshi seems to be a little hard to do (quite a bit of the genre repeats abilities and is set up seemingly like a shoujo anime - yes, I know they were originally intended for a seinen audience) and doesn't fit with the general feel of DnD very well. Something a little different, say a josei genre anime theme might work better (an example would be Twelve Kingdoms). After all, DnD characters weren't made to be civilians (at least part of the time), unless if PCs suddenly went insane and picked up NPC classes.

Alternatively, you could look at different systems, such as BESM 3e.

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2009, 09:41:04 PM »
Looks a little funky, but I'd run with it if this anime theme is expanded a bit. Sailor Senshi seems to be a little hard to do (quite a bit of the genre repeats abilities and is set up seemingly like a shoujo anime - yes, I know they were originally intended for a seinen audience) and doesn't fit with the general feel of DnD very well. Something a little different, say a josei genre anime theme might work better (an example would be Twelve Kingdoms). After all, DnD characters weren't made to be civilians (at least part of the time), unless if PCs suddenly went insane and picked up NPC classes.

Alternatively, you could look at different systems, such as BESM 3e.

The anime part is strictly optional, is a matter of flavor, not mechanics.  I can build quite a few anime characters with just psionics, TOB, incarnum, and the good old factotum.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2009, 04:20:05 PM »
I like the flavor of the campaign, and the gestalt mechanics. I might give it a try, if it ever gets off the ground. ;)
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ravenkith

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2009, 03:19:20 AM »
I could be interested - but I noticed you didn't list the spell compendium...is this an oversight, or intentional?

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2009, 05:06:02 AM »
I could be interested - but I noticed you didn't list the spell compendium...is this an oversight, or intentional?

Oversight.  Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium are in.

I used to want to run "any source you like", but i've learned to hate obscure faerun sourcebooks.  The format they use for faerun splatboots hurts my eyes something fierce, and the font is even worse.  Plus, ebberon occasionally features writers who are clearly ON DRUGS, which is how you get useless feats like "strong mind" and obscenely broken classes like Planar Shepherd WIN BUTTON in the same setting.

So it's the classic "MIC, SPC, DMG, PHB, PHBII, Races (Including Eberron), and Completes, with other stuff on an ad hoc basis" set up that was popular on 339, but with MOI, TOB TOM, and XPH tossed in to form the core for "side B"

ravenkith

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2009, 06:58:40 AM »
I'd like to make a spellwarp sniper build happen.

Sudden strike supposedly counts for entry into PRCs, but I want to confirm that before I go nuts.

You write something that you envision side b as for being the skill side of the build, but then leave rogue off the list of b side classes...intentional?


Silent Wayfarer

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2009, 07:03:42 AM »
I'd love to try out a gestalt swift hunter archer or some sort in this setting. Definitely a rogue/ranger of some sort, but with the extra build space I could mix in some incarnum (Azure Enmity yesssssss) and other fun stuff.

Out of curiosity; how are you with catfolk catgirls? :D Also, there's some Dragon magazine material I'd like to use; mainly the Solitary Hunter ranger variant. Another possible feat I might want to request is the Sword of the Arcane Order feat, but that's not a must...
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 07:15:35 AM by Silent Wayfarer »

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2009, 04:00:11 PM »
I'd like to make a spellwarp sniper build happen.

Sudden strike supposedly counts for entry into PRCs, but I want to confirm that before I go nuts.

You write something that you envision side b as for being the skill side of the build, but then leave rogue off the list of b side classes...intentional?

Uhm, no, where the heck did you read that?  Side B classes are split into categories for convenience, not to denote their explicit roles.  You are not relying on side B for skills, in fact doing so will likely gimp you seeing as how you start with ZERO levels in side B.  You can retrain your skills to take advantage of new class skills from side B at each level.

I don't know if I've made this clear, but the goal is to have no traditional casting beyond level 6, with possibly exceptions if i *really* like your build.  If you want to spellwar snipe, you're looking at warmage in all likelihood.

Hmn... i may need to offer a warmage fix to make it suck less.

Catfolk and other LA+1 races will probably be allowed at no real penalty, with maybe minor bonuses to LA +0 races to compensate.  Drow will be allowed as LA+1 but without the spell resistance or wangsty backstory.

I don't mind catgirls so long as you keep it *clean*.  Otherwise, feel free to flavor yourself as any brand of Anime neko-girl.
Though if you should happen to met a young aquatranssexual with a pigtail ...  :lol

I'm going to do the anime theme with the NPC's.  I've settled on Incarnate/Custom PrC for Pseudo-Sailor Senshi and Binder for Psuedo-Pokemon Trainers.

If you want to swift hunter, Ranger/Scout is allowable under the rules, and I will let you stack across the "gestalt".

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2009, 04:06:49 PM »
I don't know if I've made this clear, but the goal is to have no traditional casting beyond level 6, with possibly exceptions if i *really* like your build. 
No, you hadn't made that clear at all. I was going to ask about taking duel progression classes after 6th (we're doing non-gestalt after that, right?). I was thinking Sorcerer 6//Binder 1-6, then Anima Mage.

I was actually going to ask about taking Anima Mage before 6th level, since he'd actually qualify as early as level 2, but I know dual-progression classes are usually not allowed in gestalt. But then again, this isn't exactly a normal gestalt... I'd not want it to add to his sorcerer level until after 6th, so technically it would be worse than Binder as far as HD, saves, etc. I just want to progress it quickly to get to the class abilities faster.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 04:11:06 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2009, 04:30:04 PM »
I don't know if I've made this clear, but the goal is to have no traditional casting beyond level 6, with possibly exceptions if i *really* like your build.
No, you hadn't made that clear at all. I was going to ask about taking duel progression classes after 6th (we're doing non-gestalt after that, right?). I was thinking Sorcerer 6//Binder 1-6, then Anima Mage.

I was actually going to ask about taking Anima Mage before 6th level, since he'd actually qualify as early as level 2, but I know dual-progression classes are usually not allowed in gestalt. But then again, this isn't exactly a normal gestalt... I'd not want it to add to his sorcerer level until after 6th, so technically it would be worse than Binder as far as HD, saves, etc. I just want to progress it quickly to get to the class abilities faster.

Yeah, dual progression PrC's was going to be the tricky part. I like them, but you might need to take a penalty of some sort to offset the fact that you're better than everyone else now.

If you have a build stub, you can post it and I can see if it would be too powerful or work on a fix.  I note that the errata for Incantatrix suggests that free metamagics are not usable for Persist or any other effect that would be more than a +4 adjustment... not sure if I will enforce that "rule" yet.

ravenkith

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2009, 04:30:56 PM »

Uhm, no, where the heck did you read that?  Side B classes are split into categories for convenience, not to denote their explicit roles.  You are not relying on side B for skills, in fact doing so will likely gimp you seeing as how you start with ZERO levels in side B.  You can retrain your skills to take advantage of new class skills from side B at each level.

Oh, ok.

Quote
I don't know if I've made this clear, but the goal is to have no traditional casting beyond level 6, with possibly exceptions if i *really* like your build.  If you want to spellwar snipe, you're looking at warmage in all likelihood.

 :facepalm No, that wasn't clear at all. Crap. Less interested.

Quote
Hmn... i may need to offer a warmage fix to make it suck less.

Nothing can fix Warmage. Sorry.  :banghead

Huh, and Spellwarp sniper really seemed to fit the anime mold, at any rate (Think Bleach, the bow user).

<Shakes head.>

Is Phae right about the way progression works? FOr some reason, I had envisioned progressing both sides of the gestalt after 6th.  :scared

I guess I was looking at something like:

1: Sorceror
2: Sorceror
3: Sorceror
4: Sorceror
5: Sorceror
6: Sorceror
1: Monk
2: Monk
3: Ninja
4: Ninja
5: Ninja
6: Ninja
7//7: Spellwarp Sniper//Ninja
8//8: Spellwarp Sniper//Ninja
9//9: Spellwarp Sniper//Ninja
10//10: Spellwarp Sniper//Ninja
11//11: Spellwarp Sniper//Ninja
12//12: Arcane Trickster//Ninja
13//13: Arcane Trickster//Ninja
14//14: Arcane Trickster//Ninja
15//15: Arcane Trickster//Ninja
16//16: Arcane Trickster//Ninja
17//17: Arcane Trickster//Ninja
18//18: Arcane Trickster//Ninja
19//19: Arcane Trickster//Ninja

(Dump ninja side if single progression after 2nd 6th)

Maybe slap a level of MOTAO in there somewhere for versatility.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 04:39:55 PM by ravenkith »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2009, 04:54:04 PM »
If you have a build stub, you can post it and I can see if it would be too powerful or work on a fix.  I note that the errata for Incantatrix suggests that free metamagics are not usable for Persist or any other effect that would be more than a +4 adjustment... not sure if I will enforce that "rule" yet.
I've never heard of that... That's fine with me, though. I will probably be abusing other stuff, not Persistent. ;)

I was thinking:

Sorcerer 6//Binder1/Anima Mage 10 (Improved Binding lets you get into AM with only 1 Binder level).

I doubt it will ever go past that, but if it does, I'll finish with some other full casting PrC. So I'd have full binding and full sorcerer progression, and one free metamagic per day once both sides get to 6th. BAB would be as a sorcerer. HD at first would be d8, but otherwise they'd all be d4s. He'd get a bit of a bump to his Fort save, and would have binder skill points at 1st level and improved class skills from Anima Mage, but otherwise he'd be a sorcerer with extra tricks. :D
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2009, 05:33:41 PM »
On a second though, i'll let you progress side A casting for sorceror with PrC's (no the gestalt does not continue after level 6, sorry), just promise not to abuse this, mnkay? 

Also, Sonofapreacherman's rules for doubling up sorcerer spell known slots for spells with opposition are in play.  A sorcerer can learn Grease/resinous tar as 1 spell known.  Ditto Light/darkness,  Good Hope/crushing despair, Enlarge person/reduce person, Haste/slow, etc.  Psionic characters get the same benefit for their powers.  Compression/expansion just got that much better.

Monk and Ninja?  Any particular reason for that?

ravenkith

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2009, 06:18:00 PM »
Ok, So:

Sorceror 1-6
Sorceror 6//Monk 2
Sorceror 6//Monk 2/Ninja 4
Sorceror 6//Monk 2/Ninja 4/Mage of the Arcane Order ?
Sorceror 6//Monk 2/Ninja 4/Mage of the Arcane Order ?/Spellwarp Sniper 5/
Sorceror 6//Monk 2/Ninja 4/Mage of the Arcane Order ?/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Arcane Trickster ?

As for the whole Monk/Ninja thing:

1. Monk has a d8 HD. Strictly superior to d4 or d6, Especially at 'first level' (max HP rule)
2. Monk gets wisdom bonus to AC. With Ascetic Mage (CAdv), can convert this to cha to ac, reduce mad. (No similar feat for Ninja)
3. Monk 2 gets evasion.
4. Build requires minimum of 1d6 Sneak attack analogue before Spellwarp entry - Ninja's sudden strike provides that.

NOTE: Factotum, with it's 'inspiration' cunning strike, could be argued to be useful for this too - IF the DM rules that the class ability counts as having Sneak Attack all the time, so that you can a)qualify and b) retain access to your prc abilities all the time, even when out of inspirations.

If I was DM, I would not grant this.

5. Ninja provides Ghost step , which essentially translates as free sneak attack 2/day, in addition to Arcane Trickster's Impromptu SA 1/day. Very useful, especially at low levels, where everyone and his granny do NOT come equipped with true seeing.

6. Monk Starts with good saves in all categories...a nice bonus, especially seeing as my fort save will need serious shoring up with this build. If I thought I could get away with paladin on side b, it would be pally instead of monk.

7. Monks are never unarmed...another nice bonus - if all else fails, punch 'em in the balls!


Silent Wayfarer

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2009, 11:31:05 PM »
How does LA work in your system?

Track A: Scout 1 / Ranger 1-2 / Scout 2-4

Track B: Ranger 3 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / CG Incarnate 1 / Ranger 4-6 / Stalker of Kharash 2 / Ranger 7-11 / 7 more levels free

So the idea is to make a skillmonkey archer, as you can see. Scout and Ranger are for Swift Hunter. Cloistered Cleric is for Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and a miscellaneous bonus feat. Incarnate fuels the Azure Enmity feat I'm going to take. Stalker of Kharash is for FE evil.

It seems obvious to take more levels of Ranger, which progresses spellcasting, Swift Hunter and skill points, but that might be a bit bland. I mean, I don't mind, just that there's got to be something better. More levels in Stalker of Kharash could be fun, but those only grant 4 sp/level (I was shooting for a minimum of 6) and don't progress Swift Hunter. More levels in Scout might be good as well., but I'm already missing out on a lot of the goodies, and Scout will have medium BAB for the rest of the levels. Not really what I want.

I was also considering Justice of Weald and Woe. Only medium BAB, but it gives you a pool of casting, potential access to Weapon Specialization and Ranged Weapon Mastery and is a generally a nifty archery-based PRC. Doesn't progress Swift Hunter, though.


Comments would be nice...
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 11:37:17 PM by Silent Wayfarer »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2009, 12:24:24 AM »
I just noticed that you'd explicitly said no PrCs before level 6. So I'll have to work on my concept a bit. I also noticed that you effectively get double feats for 1st, 3rd, and 6th, which is nice. I could just take Sudden Metamagic feats to make up for getting into Anima Mage later. :p
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2009, 12:46:38 AM »
I'm allowing pretty much free retraining (but you have to wait until you gain your next level), so go ahead and have fun with sudden metamagic.  The no PRC's before 6 is to prevent too much early entry abuse.  if you could normally get into the class by level 4 in a non-gestalt, I may consider allowing that.  I need to go reread anima mage.

Silent, you have to take Ranger on side A and scout/stalker on side B.  If you only mean to dip 1 level of incarnate, I can let you put it on side A (I don't mind minor rules exceptions, they're really guidelines anyway), but otherwise, you're only get to have ranger 1-6 on side A.  You'll pick up your first scout level on side B almost immediately, and I'm willing to let you have swift hunter right away if that is a concern for you.  Again, I'm not a rules lawyer, I just want to keep the power creep within manageable levels.

ravenkith

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2009, 01:15:00 AM »
How does LA work in your system?

Track A: Scout 1 / Ranger 1-2 / Scout 2-4

Track B: Ranger 3 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / CG Incarnate 1 / Ranger 4-6 / Stalker of Kharash 2 / Ranger 7-11 / 7 more levels free

So the idea is to make a skillmonkey archer, as you can see. Scout and Ranger are for Swift Hunter. Cloistered Cleric is for Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and a miscellaneous bonus feat. Incarnate fuels the Azure Enmity feat I'm going to take. Stalker of Kharash is for FE evil.

It seems obvious to take more levels of Ranger, which progresses spellcasting, Swift Hunter and skill points, but that might be a bit bland. I mean, I don't mind, just that there's got to be something better. More levels in Stalker of Kharash could be fun, but those only grant 4 sp/level (I was shooting for a minimum of 6) and don't progress Swift Hunter. More levels in Scout might be good as well., but I'm already missing out on a lot of the goodies, and Scout will have medium BAB for the rest of the levels. Not really what I want.

I was also considering Justice of Weald and Woe. Only medium BAB, but it gives you a pool of casting, potential access to Weapon Specialization and Ranged Weapon Mastery and is a generally a nifty archery-based PRC. Doesn't progress Swift Hunter, though.


Comments would be nice...

It may not work for you, but have you considered Kensai?

Silent Wayfarer

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Re: Possibly running a limited gestalt game - possibly with anime theme.
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2009, 01:50:34 AM »
Quote
Silent, you have to take Ranger on side A and scout/stalker on side B.  If you only mean to dip 1 level of incarnate, I can let you put it on side A (I don't mind minor rules exceptions, they're really guidelines anyway), but otherwise, you're only get to have ranger 1-6 on side A.  You'll pick up your first scout level on side B almost immediately, and I'm willing to let you have swift hunter right away if that is a concern for you.  Again, I'm not a rules lawyer, I just want to keep the power creep within manageable levels.

Gotcha. My intention was to use Swift Hunter Favored Enemy stacking to pump Stalker of Kharash's FE(evil) as high as possible, so I'd want to delay taking Swift Hunter until I got it. I do understand your objections; back to the drawing board, I guess...

Also, re: Kensai: I don't think it'd really work for an archer type, though I wouldn't turn up my nose at free mods for the bow (which is really the core of all archer builds; lose the bow and you're worthless).