Grappling...yeah

[Orion]

Dimension Door can be stopped if you gag the caster, but that's about it.

Also, back in my rework, Mister_Sinister posted the grappling section from  Frank & K's Tomes.  Take from it what you like.

[spoiler=F&K grapple]

Grapple
- Grab On

Sometimes, you want to attach yourself to a larger creature, getting inside their reach and then repeatedly
stabbing them or simply weighing them down. As an attack action you may attempt to grab on to an opponent.
Grabbing on to an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity and requires a check with the same bonuses as a
melee attack. The DC to grab on to an opponent is their Touch AC plus their BAB. If you have 5 ranks of Climb
or Ride, you get a +2 synergy bonus on this maneuver for each skill.

Holding on:Being Held on to:Edge Options: If you have the edge on an opponent when you grab them, they may not attack you at all once you have grabbed on to them. Further, grabbing on to an opponent does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

- Hold DownEscaping a Pin: Edge Options: - LiftEscaping a Lift:Edge Options: If you have the edge on an opponent you have lifted, they may not attack you or anyone else until they escape.

[/spoiler]

Also, here's a rough mechanic suggested by Zero_Sum in one of my threads:

[spoiler=Zero_Sum mechanic]Well, to start, I don't like rules that are of the form: Since your physical quality is [foo] you're only allowed this set of options, hence why I would throw out the gross requirement of one size larger to begin with.

How about something like this:
[Opposed Grapple Check to Damage]
If you win you get to do damage as a natural attack. You may substitute any one of your natural attacks for this including unarmed strike for humanoids and a monk's unarmed damage for monks.

The following effects are cumulative:
If you win by 5 or more you may add +1d6 damage.
If you win by 10 or more you may shake off your opponent from the grapple, forcing him to release the grapple and dealing +1d6.
If you win by 15 or more you may knock him down as well, forcing him to fall prone in the square he landed in.

The reason I didn't have it so you choose and get a modifier is because then it's too risky to try to do something.  I think it's better to say "I attack" and have how well you attack be based on the result.[/spoiler]

This looks fun, actually, and a bit simpler than grappling by-the-book. I do like the idea of making it a factor of Unarmed Strikes, (as someone said just above me), but other than that, I quite like it. It also contains the things that are currently missing from grappling: riding or carrying an opponent. Nice work!

[bhu]

Ive got a couple fo third party books and of course the OGL Wrestling game to look through, but I was eventually going to be doing a grappling based class.  So sometime I'll be pursuing ideas for it.  I may be able to thrash out some ideas for locks, pins, etc.

for locks you will also have to have a system for damaging individual limbs, because if all it causes is hp damage then what was the point of doing a lock rather than something else.

My base thought on joint locks is determining that a limb has a certain % of the monsters total hitpoints. Then use a mechanic similar to sundering to disable that limb and cause hp damage no greater than the %.

I was considering making it a maneuver like the ToB stuff.  Does x damage and effect of some sort.   I wanna keep it simple so it doesn't slow down play.

[SiggyDevil]

Grapple would be a universal combat strike but the effect would be upgraded by the training and power of the user.

For instance, if the status effect output amped up every 4 or 5 levels it would seriously be worth training in.

Oh, and remove Constrict; shitsucks for balance. Enjoy your 150-something dpr snake from the MM otherwise.

[archangel.arcanis]

ok well some quick effects for joint locks from a real world point of view. links are to pictures and demonstrations of those types of locks. These are definitely not the only way to attack that joint but are the most common vs humanoid opponents.

arm bar / shoulder lock - pops the capsule in the elbow / damages cartilage around shoulder socket sometimes causes dislocation; disables that arm for 6 weeks or until healed for at least x points determine what x should be.(too extreame plus they can still function it just hurts like hell) Large penalty to strength with that limb until it is healed (6 weeks naturally or magical healing to accelerate it), no longer gain +1/2 str to damage using 2 handed weapons, penalties due to pain.

leg and ankle locks - would be more difficult to get as the legs contain larger bones and muscle groups; Would require a penalty to your check on being successful to apply the leg lock.  penalties would include reduced movement speed, carrying capacity, penalty to dexterity bonus to armor class, and all damage rolls due to inability to push off of that leg.

while i would love to say disabling a limb would be the appropriate penalty, it just wouldn't be accurate or balanced. The Houghes v Gracie fight a few years ago showed that you could force yourself to continue even with a broken arm. I've seen this as well in matches but the ref stops them if he sees the arm go. A friend of mine dislocated their elbow in a tournament, won their match and was back on the mat the following Tuesday. It got popped back into place during practice, ironically during an arm bar. Did i mention it was a girl who did that?

[bkdubs123]

Arm and Leg lock stuff

The penalties you illustrated seem to be well in the line of the Sickened and Nauseated status effects, except for the more obscure stuff like Str penalties, and penalties to carrying capacity and dex bonus.

Also, popping in to let dman know that I'll try to get in here and be more helpful, as I too have a problem with grapple as is, Frank and Keith's rules are quite nice, but I think I'd like to streamline things even more. Once we get a really, really nicely working Grappling system I can go through and errata all of the cool grappling feats from Complete Warrior.

[dman11235]

Like Earth's Embrace?  Yeah...see my Reaping Mauler fix* and the notes section there...

*pending the grapple rules fix, that is...

[bkdubs123]

Like Earth's Embrace?  Yeah...see my Reaping Mauler fix* and the notes section there...

Those types of feats, yes.

*pending the grapple rules fix, that is...

Lol. Indeed.

[bkdubs123]

Here's my basic attempt at making grappling make sense, and making it more simple. Some of it is loosely based on Frank and Keith's work, some of it is more of my own invention. Thoughts? I am sure the system can be expanded, but thoughts on this start are quite welcome!

Grappling
To attempt any grapple maneuver you must first succeed at a melee touch attack against the target's touch AC, henceforth referred to as a Grapple attack. Many grappling maneuvers require opposed Grapple Checks, which are opposed attack rolls, modified by a relevant stat (given by the maneuver; can also be effected by feats). While using certain grappling maneuvers a creature's size may modify their grapple check. Whenever you succeed at using a grappling maneuver you may choose to maintain the maneuver at the start of your next turn, as a free action, or to dismiss the maneuver. If you maintain the maneuver you continue to use the maneuver as if you had just succeeded on the Grapple attack to start the maneuver. If you dismiss the maneuver you end its effects immediately. Some Grappling maneuvers have specific follow-up maneuvers. These maneuvers can only be used while you maintain the original maneuver and require a standard action to begin.

Grab - After a successful Grapple attack you can hold your opponent in place as long as you can maintain your hold, and can impose your physique over your opponent. After your grapple attack, you and the target make opposed grapple checks. If you succeed, the creature is immobilized for 1 round. If you fail, the creature shrugs you off. The opposed grapple check for this maneuver is modified by each creature's Strength modifier. If you are at least two size categories smaller than your opponent he gains a +4 bonus to resist this maneuver. You cannot attempt to Grab a creature more than two size categories larger than you. While you are Grabbing a creature you may use the following maneuver:

Drag - After a successful opposed grapple check to use the Grab maneuver you may attempt to Drag the creature with another successful opposed grapple check. The opposed grapple check for this maneuver is modified by each creature's Strength modifier. If you succeed, you may move at 1/2 your normal speed, dragging the creature with you, ending your movement with the effected creature in an open square adjacent to you. You must end your movement in a square with at least one open adjacent square. The dragged creature's movement can provoke attacks of opportunity. The creature remains Immobilized for an additional round. If you fail, you are still considered Grabbing your opponent, but the opponent can spend an immediate action to make another set of opposed grapple checks. During this set of grapple checks, if the opponent succeeds, your Grab maneuver is automatically ended, and the target shrugs you off. If it fails, your Grab maneuver is sustained until you dismiss it.

Restrain - After a successful Grapple attack you may attempt to block a foe's attacks made with a single attack mode. You and your opponent make opposed grapple checks. If you succeed, you restrain an arm, or a leg, or a set of jaws, etc for 1 round, rendering them incapable of making attacks with a held weapon or natural weapon of your choice. If you fail, the enemy shrugs your attempt off causing no effect. You may make use of multiple Restrain maneuvers against the same target, and are able to maintain a number of Restrain maneuvers against a target equal to the number of attacks you are able to make as part of a full attack action. If you have any abilities that allow you to take additional attacks during a full attack action you may maintain that many additional Restrain maneuvers, however you take a penalty to your grapple checks equal to any penalty to attack rolls that ability would normally incur.

Hold On - After a successful Grapple attack you can move into the target's square, clinging to him, even climbing on him if he is that much bigger than you. After your grapple attack, you and the target make opposed grapple checks. If you succeed you hold fast to the target, effectively riding him. If you fail, you can relinquish your hold immediately, or you can cling to the target as a standard action each round. While you Hold On to the target you gain a +2 Cover bonus to AC if the target is your at least your size or smaller than three sizes larger than you, and a +4 Cover bonus to AC if the target is at least three sizes larger than you. You take a -1 penalty to attack rolls if the creature moves during its turn, and an additional -1 penalty to attack rolls against the creature if it is your size or one size larger. If the creature is more than two sizes larger than you, you gain a +1 bonus your attack rolls against it. To dismiss a successful Hold On maneuver you must spend a move action. While you Hold On or cling to a creature, you cannot use move actions to do anything but dismiss the maneuver. While you Hold On or cling to a creature you move with that creature, remaining in it's square wherever it goes. If the creature is knocked prone, you must succeed at a new opposed grapple check, as an immediate action, to sustain the maneuver, otherwise you fall prone into any open adjacent square. You cannot Hold On to a creature more than one size smaller than you.

Being Held On ToWrestle - After a successful Grapple attack you can move into the target's square and attempt to restrain him to the best of your ability. After the grapple attack, you and the target make opposed grapple checks. If you succeed, the creature is entangled for 1 round. If you fail, the target pushes you out of its square. The opposed grapple check for this maneuver is modified by each creature's choice of Dexterity or Strength modifiers. If you are at least two size categories smaller than your opponent he gains a +4 bonus to resist this maneuver. You cannot attempt to Wrestle a creature more than two size categories larger than you. While you are Wrestling a creature you may use the following additional maneuvers:

Pin - After a successful opposed grapple check to use the Wrestle maneuver you may attempt to Pin the creature with another successful opposed grapple check. The opposed grapple check for this maneuver is modified by each creature's choice of Dexterity or Strength modifiers. If you succeed, the creature falls prone and is rendered Immobilized. If you fail, you are still considered Wrestling with your opponent, but the opponent can spend an immediate action to make another set of opposed grapple checks. During this set of grapple checks, if the opponent succeeds your Wrestle maneuver is automatically ended, and the target pushes you out of its square. If it fails, your Wrestle maneuver is sustained until you dismiss it. While you pin a creature you may make attacks against it at no penalty, but take a -4 penalty to any other attacks you make. The pinned creature gains a +2 Cover bonus to AC if you are fewer than three size categories larger than it, or a +4 Cover bonus to AC if you are at least three sizes larger than it. You and the pinned creature lose your dexterity bonus to AC against other creatures. Anytime a pinned creature attempts any action you may spend an immediate action to make a set of opposed grapple checks. If you succeed, the pinned creature's action is wasted. If you fail, the pinned creature acts normally.

Lift Up - After a successful opposed grapple check to use the Wrestle maneuver you may attempt to Lift Up the creature with another successful opposed grapple check. The opposed grapple check for this maneuver is modified by your Strength modifier, but by the target creature's choice of its Dexterity or Strength modifiers. If you succeed, you enjoy all the benefits of the Hold On maneuver against your foe, while he experiences all the drawbacks. If you fail, you are still considered Wrestling with your opponent, but the opponent can spend an immediate action to make another set of opposed grapple checks. During this set of grapple checks, if the opponent succeeds your Wrestle maneuver is automatically ended, and the target pushes you out of its square. If it fails, your Wrestle maneuver is sustained until you dismiss it. You must have a Strength score high enough to carry the targeted creature as a Medium load. To dismiss a Lift Up maneuver you must spend a standard action to either set the creature down, to slam it down, or to hurl it. You can set a creature down on its feet or prone (your choice). A slammed creature falls prone in any square adjacent to you and is dealt 1d6 damage/+1 of your Strength modifier. A hurled creature falls prone in any open square up to 5ft/+1 of your Strength modifier away from you. While you Lift Up a creature you may only spend your standard actions to attack the creature or to dismiss the maneuver.

[SiggyDevil]

(placeholder)

Here's what I have planned so far.


Conditions to cause:
1 Immobile (no move)
2 Prone (-4 melee hit, no ranged, -4 AC to melee, +4 AC to ranged)
3 Entangled (no move if anchored, if unanchored then half speed/no run/no charge, -2 to hit, -4 DEX, spell disrupt)
4 Daze (no actions)
5 Stunned (drop items, no action, -2 AC, no Dodge)
6 Paralyzed (STR and DEX 0, no Dodge, DEX = 0, +4 to be hit for being Prone, auto-hit and crit)

You can check what conditions do here: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htmbasic stage of a Grab is the Entangled condition applied to target after they are hit.
The attacker is Entangled as well.
Both are considered anchored and Immobile for any round in which the attacker takes no move action and as long as the attacker holds on (see below)
Both grappler and target share the same space. On each of their own turns they may move normally if Entangled, albeit at reduced speed, but the other is dragged along with them.

The grappler gives up 1 melee attack (not AoO) each round to maintain their hold.
The Grapple condition track is removed entirely if attacker lets go, such as a throw.

The defender gets a single Fortitude save against the grappler's Strength score at the beginning of each of their own turns to remove all of the Grapple conditions from that opponent. This does not end the effect of being Grabbed, which might resume applying conditions on the attacker's next turn.
A melee attack or Escape Artist check vs. grappler's Strength ends the defender's Grabbed status.

After Grabbed status comes Pinned.first stage of Pinning is inflicted on Entangled opponents as a similar grapple attack.
The target is Dazedsecond stage of Pinning is inflicted if the Pin is still in effect, and will be either be Stunfinal stage of a Pin is Paralysis, affecting a target after they are Stunned. The defender is choked in to submission or subdued in appropriate manner for some number of rounds (maybe until they make a Fort. save, similar to Hold Person, which means that for weaker opponents there is no hope really).
This final stage is only for grapplers with BAB 6+.
An opponent Paralyzed for more rounds than they can hold their breath will suffocate, if the grappler chooses so.




Note that the concept of a "Grapple check" is pretty much an Unarmed attack, or as by any weapon designated the ability to grab (are there any? jeez), with the Grapple bonus thrown on top.
I'm considering doing away with Size modifiers here since tiny characters are low in STR and bigger ones are stronger anyway.

[RobbyPants]

Both are considered anchored and Immobile for any round in which the attacker takes no move action and as long as the attacker holds on (see below)
Both grappler and target share the same space. On each of their own turns they may move normally if Entangled, albeit at reduced speed, but the other is dragged along with them.

Could someone stop the other from dragging them with a grapple check?  I don't think dragging should just auto-succeed.

The defender gets a single Fort. save against the grappler's Strength score at the beginning of each of their own turns to remove all of the Grapple conditions from that opponent, or can use any number of melee attacks in place of any Fort. save to end the Grapple conditions.

Is this Fort save just to remove effects like dazed, or is it to break the grapple?  I'm assuming the former?

After Grabbed status comes Pinned.
Each stage from here on out is only caused by grapplers trained with Improved Grapple feat.

<snip>

Personally, I think untrained grapplers should still be able to pin someone, although this status need not be anything more than making the defender prone.  I like the simple idea of opposed grapple checks to just keep the guy there.

Beyond that, the three status effects you listed I think would work well either as a feat or a short PrC (Reaping Mauler-esque).

[SiggyDevil]

1. Nope. Defender gets hit, attacker moves, defender gets dragged. If you want to avoid that initial movement, don't get hit.
Technically it doesn't auto-succeed since there's an attack roll involved, and not that it doesn't mean "touch attack". Just a normal Unarmed or Weapon attack; this represents the difficult to lift heaviness of armor or natural plating.

2. Fortitude save ends Grapple condition(s) but actual attacks end the Grab/Pin status.

3. So, you think untrained grapplers should be able to Daze on the second attack or flip someone Prone? (Edit: OK I changed it.)
I considered that, but keep in mind there's no limit to how often one may do so...
I figured if casters and monsters want to become grapplefiends they'll have to invest in it too like the Fighter would.

I did away with opposed grapple checks because the variance between two d20+value rolls was too divergent, while Grapple (attack roll + any Grapple bonuses) vs. Strength score as a DC is very predictable.
Also, it favors the strong and tough... something that should be done in melee combat anyway.

I should probably mention Escape Artist as a option to end Grab/Pin in place of attack roll as well...