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Author Topic: Grappling...yeah  (Read 3314 times)
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dman11235
Grape ape
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« on: February 17, 2009, 07:36:12 PM »

So I wanna fix grappling.  But I'm at a loss on how to do it, cause it just sucks so bad right now.  So really I'm looking for things that are wrong with it and potential ways to fix them.  Currently it's either over or underpowered, depending on the circumstances, with nothing in between.  You either grapple the only monster in the battle and auto-win, or you fail to grapple it and you are a waste of character space.  And currently option 2 is probably the more common one.  The other big problem is the lack of coherency in the ability, since it was written so poorly.  So really what needs to happen is to reduce the binary status of the ability.  And probably a lot more, so lets hear it.
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2009, 07:53:26 PM »

Well, so far as I know, here are the major issues:

- It can be completely shut down by Freedom of Movement.  This issue relies on opinion.  Are immunities in the game bad, or is it something to plan around?  Still, FoM as written stops grappling.

- You're limited by your size in what you can grapple.  So, even if you get a really high BAB and Str mod, you just simply can't grapple someone three sizes larger than you.  One option is to simply remove this limitation.  It might seem wierd, but if you can reliably pull off the grapple checks to do it, you're probably a pretty scary grappler.  You could picture the smaller grappler litterally climbing up the larger opponent, twisting limbs all the way.

- It's hard to keep up with large creatures due to modifiers.  Getting your size increased helps here.


As far as the wording goes, do you think the mechanic needs fixing, or are you looking for a better wording?  Perhaps a flow chart (or something) to more clearly show what step follows what?  I think you could simplify it a bit, if you really wanted to.
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Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
bogsnes
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2009, 07:56:03 PM »

Also, Dimension Door and the like...
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2009, 07:57:48 PM »

Dimension Door can be stopped if you gag the caster, but that's about it.

Also, back in my rework, Mister_Sinister posted the grappling section from  Frank & K's Tomes.  Take from it what you like.

[spoiler=F&K grapple]
Quote from: Frank Trollman in the Tome SRD
Grapple

Grapple is collectively 3 separate maneuvers that all fall under the super-heading of “grappling”. Any grapple
attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless your attack has the edge.

- Grab On


Sometimes, you want to attach yourself to a larger creature, getting inside their reach and then repeatedly
stabbing them or simply weighing them down. As an attack action you may attempt to grab on to an opponent.
Grabbing on to an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity and requires a check with the same bonuses as a
melee attack. The DC to grab on to an opponent is their Touch AC plus their BAB. If you have 5 ranks of Climb
or Ride, you get a +2 synergy bonus on this maneuver for each skill.

Holding on: Once you’ve attached yourself to your opponent, you go wherever they go. Move in to their space, and move where they do automatically (this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity or count against your movement in any way). You may attack with any light or one handed weapon, and your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus against you.

Being Held on to: If another creature has grabbed on to your character, their weight counts against your
carrying capacity. If you’re overloaded, you may be unable to move or even collapse until you shake your
opponent off. You can attempt to attack a creature holding on to you, but your strength modifier is halved for
such attacks and your attacks are at -4. You may attempt to shake your opponent off as an attack action by
making a check with a bonus equal to your melee attack or Escape Artist and a DC of 10 + the greatest of your
opponent’s BAB, Climb Ranks, or Ride Ranks.

Edge Options: If you have the edge on an opponent when you grab them, they may not attack you at all once you have grabbed on to them. Further, grabbing on to an opponent does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

- Hold Down

Sometimes you want to pin an opponent to the ground. First, make a touch attack. Then, make a Grapple
Check (BAB + Strength Modifier + Special Size Modifier) with a DC of 10 + Defender’s Grapple Check Modifier.
If you succeed, your opponent is pinned for one round. They can’t move, and you may put ropes or manacles
on them if you wish with an attack action. At the end of any turn you are pinning your opponent, you may
inflict unarmed or constriction damage. With subsequent attack actions, you may attack with natural weapons
or light weapons with no penalty.

Escaping a Pin: If you’re pinned you can attempt to fight back, but you’re prone and you suffer an additional
-4 penalty to attack the creature pinning you (generally a -8 total penalty to attack your attacker). You can
get out with an attack action by making a Grapple or Escape Artist check with a DC of 10 + your opponent’s
Grapple Modifier.

Edge Options: If you’re pinning an opponent and your attacks have the edge, your opponent cannot attack you or anyone else until they get free. Furthermore, if anyone else attacks them, they are considered helpless.

- Lift

Sometimes you want to put an opponent in your mouth or carry away a struggling princess. Make a touch
attack and then make a Grapple Check with a DC equal to 10 + your opponent’s Grapple modifier. If you
succeed, your opponent is hefted into the air. You may move around freely while carrying your opponent (their
weight counts against your limits of course). You may perform a coup de grace or swallow whole action on a
character you have lifted, but doing so ends the lift whether it succeeds or fails.

Escaping a Lift: When you’ve been lifted, you cannot move under your own power, but you can continue to
attack. Attacks against the creature which has lifted you are at a -4 penalty. You can also attempt to escape
with an attack action by making a Grapple or Escape Artist check with a DC of 10 + your opponent’s Grapple
Modifier.

Edge Options: If you have the edge on an opponent you have lifted, they may not attack you or anyone else until they escape.

Quote from: Frank Trollman in Tome SRD
So what we’re doing is actually making BAB mean something. It’s supposed to represent the amount of combat skill you have, so let’s work with that. From now on, if you have more BAB than the target of your attacks, you are considered to “Have the Edge” on that attack. Combat Maneuvers will perform better when used by someone with the Edge. So while anyone can attempt to Disarm an opponent (provoking an attack of opportunity and dropping the weapon on the ground on a successful opposed attack roll), a character with the Edge can disarm better (provoking no attack of opportunity and sending the weapon flying in a direction of his choice). In this manner, a character who takes full BAB classes always has a fundamental advantage in combat over characters who do other things.
[/spoiler]

Also, here's a rough mechanic suggested by Zero_Sum in one of my threads:

[spoiler=Zero_Sum mechanic]Well, to start, I don't like rules that are of the form: Since your physical quality is [foo] you're only allowed this set of options, hence why I would throw out the gross requirement of one size larger to begin with.

How about something like this:
[Opposed Grapple Check to Damage]
If you win you get to do damage as a natural attack. You may substitute any one of your natural attacks for this including unarmed strike for humanoids and a monk's unarmed damage for monks.

The following effects are cumulative:
If you win by 5 or more you may add +1d6 damage.
If you win by 10 or more you may shake off your opponent from the grapple, forcing him to release the grapple and dealing +1d6.
If you win by 15 or more you may knock him down as well, forcing him to fall prone in the square he landed in.

The reason I didn't have it so you choose and get a modifier is because then it's too risky to try to do something.  I think it's better to say "I attack" and have how well you attack be based on the result.[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 08:01:23 PM by RobbyPants » Logged

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
archangel.arcanis
Organ Grinder
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Posts: 2938



« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2009, 08:11:29 PM »

the question is how close to realistic grappling do we want to get and how involved do we want the system to be.  I have over 6 years of grappling experience and can say that size makes a difference but only due to the weight and power advantage they normally get. I am 135 lbs and will fight with people weighing 300+lbs in practice.The main areas of realistic grappling would be Throws/takedowns, chokes/strangles, pins & escapes, and joint locks. 
*The throwing techniques in setting sun school of ToB could provide a good baseline for damage from throws, thought the ranges git silly.
*Chokes and strangles would be tricky to implement as they just incapacitate someone for a very short period of time. It easily could be done as 1 round of unconsciousness but that leads to balance issues.
*Pins and escaping pins is going to be a pain in the butt to do properly. I don't have any mechanical ideas for this.
*Joint locks just like strangles are going to be a balance issue. It is very effective to disable an appendage but the rules for damaging a limb just don't exist. We have similar problems with called shots in our games, because people want to do them a lot but we have to make up rules depending on the circumstances.
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dman11235
Grape ape
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Posts: 1544



« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2009, 08:29:10 PM »

Well, so far as I know, here are the major issues:

- It can be completely shut down by Freedom of Movement.  This issue relies on opinion.  Are immunities in the game bad, or is it something to plan around?  Still, FoM as written stops grappling.

- You're limited by your size in what you can grapple.  So, even if you get a really high BAB and Str mod, you just simply can't grapple someone three sizes larger than you.  One option is to simply remove this limitation.  It might seem wierd, but if you can reliably pull off the grapple checks to do it, you're probably a pretty scary grappler.  You could picture the smaller grappler litterally climbing up the larger opponent, twisting limbs all the way.

- It's hard to keep up with large creatures due to modifiers.  Getting your size increased helps here.


As far as the wording goes, do you think the mechanic needs fixing, or are you looking for a better wording?  Perhaps a flow chart (or something) to more clearly show what step follows what?  I think you could simplify it a bit, if you really wanted to.


For immunities, I use a houserule that makes them a +20 to the appropriate roll, so it's really hard to fail, but you can still fail.  This would have to change with higher number checks, such as grappling, but that's gonna have to be a part of this.  But yeah, that immunity thing is one of the big problems which goes into the auto-fail option.

Sizes: I had an idea of a bonus for being a larger size than your opponent, if anything at all.  I mean, there's already the size bonus to grapple checks, which already makes it hard, so I think nixing the size limit is perfectly fine.

The hard to keep up with large creatures due to modifiers is actually a good thing in my mind, keeps it from getting insane, like managing to grapple a dragon when you're medium just because you rolled high and he rolled low.   However, that grab on mechanic changes things, sice you could just grab on to a leg, but you wouldn't really hinder the movement or anything.  I don't know.  Keep it coming.
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2009, 09:12:14 PM »

Did you read the option from Zero_Sum I posted in a spoiler?  I'm not saying it's perfect, but that was his quick and dirty attempt at a more simple system.  The idea of degrees of success allows you to bypass other steps in the process.

If you removed the size limitation, you could effectively grapple some really large things, but this is going to require lucky rolling and/or really high modifiers on your part.  Also, since these checks aren't attacks or saves, there should be no auto-success or auto-failure, so once the difference in mods gets high enough, some grapples will just be impossible.
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My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
bihlbo
Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
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« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2009, 09:18:12 PM »

Well, so far as I know, here are the major issues:

- It can be completely shut down by Freedom of Movement. 
And a barbarian can be completely worthless against a flying target. So what? The chances of someone having FoM available to them are extremely slim outside of magic items that have it active at all times.

Quote
- You're limited by your size in what you can grapple.  So, even if you get a really high BAB and Str mod, you just simply can't grapple someone three sizes larger than you.  One option is to simply remove this limitation.  It might seem wierd, but if you can reliably pull off the grapple checks to do it, you're probably a pretty scary grappler.  You could picture the smaller grappler litterally climbing up the larger opponent, twisting limbs all the way.
The grapple rules are built around the idea that you're trying to get into a grappling position. That's not possible against something rather large. Heck, my 8 year-old nephew can't get into a grapple with me, and I'm not that big. However, he can easily latch on, and it would be nice for the rules to make this possible, at least until what you're latched onto gets ahold of you (at which point you lose).

Quote
- It's hard to keep up with large creatures due to modifiers.  Getting your size increased helps here.
That's because of reality. Being bigger means you win grapples. Ever seen a sumo wrestler go at it against a little kickboxer? The little guy has only one tactic: punch the back of the sumo's head after getting out of his arms' reach. If the sumo grabs on, the little guy is FAIL.

I'm the only person I know who likes grappling the way it is. That said, the one thing I would change is that if your modifiers are high enough you never lose. If your opponent has a +14 modifier and your modifier is +34 it's impossible to ever lose, because even a roll of a 1 isn't a failure. So you pin, strip the opponent of magic items (now their modifier is +11!) then squeeze for a few minutes until win. It would be nice if at least a 5% chance of failure was an option.

This product, while not free, does have good alternate rules for grappling. They aren't simplified however.
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2009, 10:01:43 PM »

And a barbarian can be completely worthless against a flying target. So what? The chances of someone having FoM available to them are extremely slim outside of magic items that have it active at all times.
If you look at my rework, you'll note I've decided to leave FoM alone.  I don't have a problem with immunities, in that I think you're playing a risky game running a one-trick-pony.

Although, in terms of your barbarian analogy, once you get to a high enough level, the barbarian will have ways to deal with flight, but a grappler is still shut down by FoM.  I suppose an AMF could work, but there are ways to deal with that too.


The grapple rules are built around the idea that you're trying to get into a grappling position. That's not possible against something rather large. Heck, my 8 year-old nephew can't get into a grapple with me, and I'm not that big. However, he can easily latch on, and it would be nice for the rules to make this possible, at least until what you're latched onto gets ahold of you (at which point you lose).


That's because of reality. Being bigger means you win grapples. Ever seen a sumo wrestler go at it against a little kickboxer? The little guy has only one tactic: punch the back of the sumo's head after getting out of his arms' reach. If the sumo grabs on, the little guy is FAIL.

I'm the only person I know who likes grappling the way it is. That said, the one thing I would change is that if your modifiers are high enough you never lose. If your opponent has a +14 modifier and your modifier is +34 it's impossible to ever lose, because even a roll of a 1 isn't a failure. So you pin, strip the opponent of magic items (now their modifier is +11!) then squeeze for a few minutes until win. It would be nice if at least a 5% chance of failure was an option.
Really, I'm not that worried with realism with different sizes.  You're completely right that IRL, size wins grapples, barring exceptional training.  I think the BAB + Str + size mod forumula for grapples captures a lot of what it needs to.

Still, if you're medium and you're winning grapple checks agains something that's collosal, you either have a huge BAB and/or a really high Str.  At this point, you're dealing with an epic or near-epic game.  Real life mechanics and realism have no place here.  It's high level fantasy.  Casters have been bending reality to their will for over ten levels now.  Why not let the grappler have a bit of fun while we're at it?  Sure, it's rediculous IRL, but it's kewl!
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My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
bogsnes
Donkey Kong
****
Posts: 601


« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2009, 11:11:18 PM »

That's because of reality. Being bigger means you win grapples. Ever seen a sumo wrestler go at it against a little kickboxer? The little guy has only one tactic: punch the back of the sumo's head after getting out of his arms' reach. If the sumo grabs on, the little guy is FAIL.

I'm the only person I know who likes grappling the way it is. That said, the one thing I would change is that if your modifiers are high enough you never lose. If your opponent has a +14 modifier and your modifier is +34 it's impossible to ever lose, because even a roll of a 1 isn't a failure. So you pin, strip the opponent of magic items (now their modifier is +11!) then squeeze for a few minutes until win. It would be nice if at least a 5% chance of failure was an option.

Face it. DnD is not AT ALL like real life past level 6 (even earlier, but at this point it is really clear...)

Thus why E6 exists...
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veekie
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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2009, 02:04:05 AM »

To begin with, stripping the max size limitation, or replacing it with a parallel, Colossus Climb grappling method for smaller creatures would be good, though I stand by removing immunities that invalidate a entire playing style(Mind Blank, True Seeing(this isn't so bad, coz of the component cost and duration), etc, and their associated items).

A feat to add negative size difference(that is, how much smaller than your target you are) to the grapple check, can be used for small vs large grapples. Oh, and turn the opposed check into a grapple check vs a DC(determined from the other guy's grapple bonus), grapple is messy enough without needing 2 players to roll an opposed check every round for every attack they would have made.

The F&K grappling rules are plenty good though.
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dman11235
Grape ape
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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2009, 07:06:57 AM »

Quote
If you look at my rework, you'll note I've decided to leave FoM alone.  I don't have a problem with immunities, in that I think you're playing a risky game running a one-trick-pony.

Although, in terms of your barbarian analogy, once you get to a high enough level, the barbarian will have ways to deal with flight, but a grappler is still shut down by FoM.  I suppose an AMF could work, but there are ways to deal with that too.

I don't have a problem with immunities in general, but only when they are for specific things, not entire combat methods, such as "I hit it with a sword" (Ironguard).  The tricky part is determining where a niche ends and a one trick pony begins.
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SiggyDevil
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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2009, 07:57:10 AM »

Grappling as am Unarmed combat option, or as by weapon if character is trained is it and the item allows such things, that applies status effects of Stun, Immobile, Daze, Paralysis, and so on.

If it's an attack that fits in with the other mechanics of spells and maneuvers then there's nothing to fret.
At the moment it's some kind of exotic opposed roll gimmick with whole pages devoted to the options and effect, and that's not cool.
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Straw_Man
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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2009, 10:38:55 AM »


  I'm not a fan of FoM being an autowin, and on these boards it's almost de regiour for FoM in an opt'ed character. CL scaling bonus is bad enough and a good start to making grapplers more viable.

  I like the sensibility that you can't grapple huge creatures, but it sucks that your the only one forced to be sensible as wizards go playing rocket tag and martial initiators are flying and teleporting. All grappling starts with the improved grappling feat; rewrite to make it remove the size limitation on what you can grapple and bob's your uncle. It bespeaks of technique and skill rather which still sounds realistic while letting grapplers play.

  What else? Different types of grapples might be nice, with a variations like choke, throw and the pin.
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SiggyDevil
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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2009, 01:25:49 PM »

Aha but you SHOULD be able to grapple huge characters as a 'mundane' human!

Consider Hercules or Thor. One grabbed monsters far larger on a frequent basis, while the other tangled with the Midgaard serpent in guise of a cat and lifted one of its paws off the ground (it's.. complex).

Size matters not, etc.



While grappling something 10 times larger would indeed seem weird, it's only a matter of superior strength.
The weaker character, usually smaller, would only manage to cling to a monster and become tossed around, while the stronger would indeed be in control at least briefly if not until the end of battle.
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2009, 02:21:26 PM »

I don't have a problem with immunities in general, but only when they are for specific things, not entire combat methods, such as "I hit it with a sword" (Ironguard).  The tricky part is determining where a niche ends and a one trick pony begins.
I think it's somewhat of a matter of opinion, and I wasn't stating that to say how it should be in your rework.  I was only brining it up to bihlbo to tell him that I agreed with him on that front.

Modifying FoM to be a bonus instead of an auto-win is certainly a great way to improve grapplers (at least against NPCs).


Size matters not, etc.



While grappling something 10 times larger would indeed seem weird, it's only a matter of superior strength.
The weaker character, usually smaller, would only manage to cling to a monster and become tossed around, while the stronger would indeed be in control at least briefly if not until the end of battle.
I would say size matters only so much as the modifier it give you to your roll.  I would say it dosn't matter in that I think the size limitations on grapples should be lifted.  Again, if you can beat the collasal guy's grapple modifier, then you're already supernaturally strong/skilled to begin with.

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SiggyDevil
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« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2009, 03:07:58 PM »

I would say size matters only so much as the modifier it give you to your roll.  I would say it dosn't matter in that I think the size limitations on grapples should be lifted.  Again, if you can beat the collasal guy's grapple modifier, then you're already supernaturally strong/skilled to begin with.

Right, but I assume gigantic strength is a direct product of gigantic size.

In fantasy, though, one can have an equal amount of gigantic strength in a 'normal' human container.
The numeric effect is literally identical... but only if said bonus for larger character is actually a direct result of being larger, but not being larger AND of an equal amount of strength (that's just redundant and why even bother, it's the same result)

Size would then be relegated to mere reach, movement speed, and damage reduction.. properties that can likewise be overshadowed by Stretchy Powers, Superspeed, and Really Tough Skin.
Even the ability to 'swallow whole' can be duplicated by someone with a Pocket Dimension Mouth or whatever.

All in all size ends up being just a drawback IMO.
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bhu
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« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2009, 03:12:31 PM »

Ive got a couple fo third party books and of course the OGL Wrestling game to look through, but I was eventually going to be doing a grappling based class.  So sometime I'll be pursuing ideas for it.  I may be able to thrash out some ideas for locks, pins, etc.
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archangel.arcanis
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« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2009, 07:58:55 PM »

Ive got a couple fo third party books and of course the OGL Wrestling game to look through, but I was eventually going to be doing a grappling based class.  So sometime I'll be pursuing ideas for it.  I may be able to thrash out some ideas for locks, pins, etc.

for locks you will also have to have a system for damaging individual limbs, because if all it causes is hp damage then what was the point of doing a lock rather than something else.

My base thought on joint locks is determining that a limb has a certain % of the monsters total hitpoints. Then use a mechanic similar to sundering to disable that limb and cause hp damage no greater than the %.
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« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2009, 08:14:55 PM »

Joint locks could be as simple as keeping the opponent from using said limb on a successful grapple check.  Perhaps someone with their arm locked would suffer a -4 penalty on grapple checks, so once you've locked the arm, it would be easier to maintain the lock.

If the opponent resists in such a way that the limb might get injured, just roll unarmed strike damage as normal, and if they fail a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str mod), then they cannot use the limb for some amount of time, or until they get healed for X damage.
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My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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