Author Topic: On high level CR-appropriate encounters  (Read 5387 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

bogsnes

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 601
    • Email
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2009, 05:25:18 PM »
Changing feats just doesn't cut it for the so called inferior creatures, DMs are pretty much bound to do that already with outsiders and dragons if their players are competent. In numerous cases changing feats won't help bad monsters, much like doping, monster optimization yields best results when applied to potent creatures.
Adding non-associated class levels can be a huge improvement, due to the way they add 1/2 CR per class level. Add 17 wizard levels to a CR 11 Cloud Giant, and it is technically only a CR 20. :D

Source? That sounded strange...

Changing feats just doesn't cut it for the so called inferior creatures, DMs are pretty much bound to do that already with outsiders and dragons if their players are competent. In numerous cases changing feats won't help bad monsters, much like doping, monster optimization yields best results when applied to potent creatures.

Even though it won't, it will help...
better than nothing, at least

Runestar

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 820
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2009, 08:45:26 PM »
Also try to give quicken SLA to any monster who qualifies for it.  :P

Maybe we should start a thread on basic tips for optimizing monsters? Like making sure any creature with multiple natural attacks has improved multiattack and rapidstrike if possible. Or giving a monster with poor will saves but high con steadfast determination.

It won't necessarily resolve the problem, but it may help streamline them and make them for efficient to run.
A clear conscience is the surest sign of a failing memory.

Straw_Man

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1145
    • Email
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2009, 09:33:44 PM »

  There was a thread like this back in the old 339 boards about optimising enemies. Unsurprisingly it's been pruned.

  Generally I use templates to boost up my monsters, and use a -1 LA for spellcasting monster, -2 LA otherwise. Works pretty well, but dragons, outsiders and NPC's were still the major threats till I made a Martial template. Used 3/4 of the creatures HD as IL, 1 martial feat, 2 maneuver and 1 stance known, a full-round refresh mechanic and a special focus. Int focus added +2 to Int and added int mod to confirm crit and reflexes and Wis was a bonus and Wis mod to AC unarmed. +1 CR/ +3 ECL but I'm considering changing that as it's making fights too challenging for my PC's.

 
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2009, 07:50:35 AM »
An example coming:
Pit fiend:
-Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fireball)

Three feats that are damn easy to change away. Personally I'd add Use magic device to the skill selection, add +1 to all physical ability scores to get even numbers and swap those feats according to the party needs.

Quicken SLA (Greater dispel magic) would be a lot better than the Fireball option, for example.

Handy Links

Runestar

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 820
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2009, 09:24:43 AM »
I was under the impression that optimizing the monsters also meant adhering to the rules. True, as a DM, you can handwave a lot of stuff and the players will be none the wiser, but then, that kinda defeats the purpose of such a discussion (as well as making it moot).

For instance, giving a balor flyby attack to improve its mobility. A vrock uses hover to harry the party while staying out of reach. And so on and so forth.
A clear conscience is the surest sign of a failing memory.

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2009, 09:39:18 AM »
One nice option is to give class levels to monsters with a high enough Int.  Everyone expects it when they run into various humaniods at high levels, but not necessarily with other creature types.  Of course, this technically puts the monster into the "NPC" category, so I guess this just proves Tshern's orignal statement about only using outsiders, dragons, and NPCs. ;)

One thing I like about NPCs is I really only have to worry about their relative threat, and not their hard-and-fast CR.  For example, I had a group of PCs fighting a caster, and I wanted him to be a 7th level caster.  For flavor reasons, a specialized necremancer with the dread witch PrC (Heroes of Horror) really fit the bill.  The dread witch is an intersting class, but it loses a caster level, so I figured I could make an 8th level NPC that was techincally a 7th level caster.  I also thought a mind bender dip would be nice for telepathy for flavor reasons, so I through in a level of rogue to make the skill requirements doable.  In the end, he was a 9th level character, but two of those levels had a negligable impact on his actual power.

Long story short, I'll sometimes throw on several "pointless" levels just to boost the NPC in various ways, but run it as a character of significantly lower level.  This could be as simple as throwing four fighter levels onto a wizard just to give him more HP and a better Fort save.  Really, he won't be that much more potent (offensively) than a caster of equal caster-level.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bogsnes

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 601
    • Email
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2009, 09:42:00 AM »
An example coming:
Pit fiend:
-Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fireball)

Three feats that are damn easy to change away. Personally I'd add Use magic device to the skill selection, add +1 to all physical ability scores to get even numbers and swap those feats according to the party needs.

Quicken SLA (Greater dispel magic) would be a lot better than the Fireball option, for example.

So this is what we are going to meet next :P

Keep me updated (a bit before we meet it) :P

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2009, 03:12:27 PM »
Changing feats just doesn't cut it for the so called inferior creatures, DMs are pretty much bound to do that already with outsiders and dragons if their players are competent. In numerous cases changing feats won't help bad monsters, much like doping, monster optimization yields best results when applied to potent creatures.
Adding non-associated class levels can be a huge improvement, due to the way they add 1/2 CR per class level. Add 17 wizard levels to a CR 11 Cloud Giant, and it is technically only a CR 20. :D

Source? That sounded strange...
The SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#nonassociatedClassLevels
Quote
Nonassociated Class Levels
Cloud giants have 17 HD, but are only CR 11. They don't have racial wizard spellcasting, so wizard is a non-associated class for them. So each wizard level, up to 17, only counts as a +1/2 CR increase. Of course, you'd have to rearrange their stats, as they only have a 12 Int normally, but still... a freakin 34 HD giant (17 racial + 17 wizard) with 17th level wizard casting only counts as a CR 19 or 20? That's a bit crazy...

Heck, you could do the same thing with cleric levels, and they do have a decent starting wisdom. That would probably be even stronger...
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 03:18:59 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Echoes

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2009, 05:47:51 PM »
Quote
Nonassociated Class Levels

Cloud giants have 17 HD, but are only CR 11. They don't have racial wizard spellcasting, so wizard is a non-associated class for them. So each wizard level, up to 17, only counts as a +1/2 CR increase. Of course, you'd have to rearrange their stats, as they only have a 12 Int normally, but still... a freakin 34 HD giant (17 racial + 17 wizard) with 17th level wizard casting only counts as a CR 19 or 20? That's a bit crazy...

Heck, you could do the same thing with cleric levels, and they do have a decent starting wisdom. That would probably be even stronger...

That reminds me of the Frost Giant Were-Polar Bear Lord (Dire Polar Bear Lycanthrope) I statted up. Some 32 HD, 61 Str, +45 attack (4d6+33 with a Huge nonmagical greatsword), decent saves, and 330 HP in hybrid form without touching most of the feats.  It's CR? 14.

Lycanthrope gets crazy-strong for NPCs when you start adding super high-HD animals to things, because the CR adjustment caps out at a +5. So you could toss 40 animal HD (assuming you can find a 40 HD Large animal) onto a Human Fighter 1, and he'd be a CR 6 creature with 41 HD (and all the BAB, Saves, Feats, and HP that entails). It's just stupid.
BrokeAndDrive speaks the Truth (linked for great justice and signature limits)

Quotes I Found Entertaining:

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
[spoiler]
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4497
  • Developing a relaxed attitude to danger.
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2009, 05:50:07 PM »
Well, like Tshern said, the CR system is so incredibly screwed up, you have to ad-lib it constantly if you want anything near appropriate challenges.

Straw_Man

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1145
    • Email
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2009, 07:03:07 PM »
Quote
Nonassociated Class Levels

Cloud giants have 17 HD, but are only CR 11. They don't have racial wizard spellcasting, so wizard is a non-associated class for them. So each wizard level, up to 17, only counts as a +1/2 CR increase. Of course, you'd have to rearrange their stats, as they only have a 12 Int normally, but still... a freakin 34 HD giant (17 racial + 17 wizard) with 17th level wizard casting only counts as a CR 19 or 20? That's a bit crazy...

Heck, you could do the same thing with cleric levels, and they do have a decent starting wisdom. That would probably be even stronger...

That reminds me of the Frost Giant Were-Polar Bear Lord (Dire Polar Bear Lycanthrope) I statted up. Some 32 HD, 61 Str, +45 attack (4d6+33 with a Huge nonmagical greatsword), decent saves, and 330 HP in hybrid form without touching most of the feats.  It's CR? 14.

Lycanthrope gets crazy-strong for NPCs when you start adding super high-HD animals to things, because the CR adjustment caps out at a +5. So you could toss 40 animal HD (assuming you can find a 40 HD Large animal) onto a Human Fighter 1, and he'd be a CR 6 creature with 41 HD (and all the BAB, Saves, Feats, and HP that entails). It's just stupid.

  Gods if my GM ever pulled this on me I'd be breaking out the Planar Shepherd or Rainbow Warsnake.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2009, 07:35:04 PM »
I was under the impression that optimizing the monsters also meant adhering to the rules. True, as a DM, you can handwave a lot of stuff and the players will be none the wiser, but then, that kinda defeats the purpose of such a discussion (as well as making it moot).
Who was this directed at? If at me, please point where I broke rules, so I can avoid that in the future...

Handy Links

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2009, 08:16:06 PM »
I've found that against a mildly-optimized party you can use Gestalt on an NPC to make them into a challenging encounter. It's a tad unfair, but against an ECL 24 party it worked wonders. I added Duskblade/NE Incarnate levels to a Deadly Dancer (ToM) and customized it's scores a bit (as though it were a PC) and I ended up with a powerful encounter. The Monk/Favored Soul/Sacred Fist and the Warlock/Wizard/Eldritch Theurge both found him a difficult threat to deal with, mostly due to his Soulmelds and Arcane Channeling on 12 attacks/round.

Later on, I threw a Chaos Dragon Zorvintaal Dracolich at them (this was literally within 2 hours of the Deadly Dancer). They only managed to survive due to the NPC Incarnate having a Wand of Remove Paralysis (NG alignment, so not much else I could focus on with him) handy and hitting the Wizard with a charge. If they had changed tactics mid-fight, they would have done far better. But that Dracolich was very resilient (even without the bonus HP from Con) and extremely dangerous.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2009, 08:04:45 AM »
That is an interesting idea really. Might work very well against parties who have particularly optimized characters and doesn't require that much work on the DM's behalf. Definitely better than tossing in more levels to the character...

Handy Links

BowenSilverclaw

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5337
  • Walking that fine line between genius and insanity
    • Email
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2009, 09:02:33 AM »
Ah, yes, the Minotaur Ur-Priest, still need to try that one one of these days :P
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

Runestar

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 820
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2009, 09:46:43 AM »
Quote
Cloud giants have 17 HD, but are only CR 11. They don't have racial wizard spellcasting, so wizard is a non-associated class for them. So each wizard level, up to 17, only counts as a +1/2 CR increase. Of course, you'd have to rearrange their stats, as they only have a 12 Int normally, but still... a freakin 34 HD giant (17 racial + 17 wizard) with 17th level wizard casting only counts as a CR 19 or 20? That's a bit crazy...

This is how that storm giant lord in that old issue of dungeon should have been statted up. Storm giant sorc20 = cr24, throw in practiced spellcaster and you get caster lv24 as well.  :D

Quote
Lycanthrope gets crazy-strong for NPCs when you start adding super high-HD animals to things, because the CR adjustment caps out at a +5. So you could toss 40 animal HD (assuming you can find a 40 HD Large animal) onto a Human Fighter 1, and he'd be a CR 6 creature with 41 HD (and all the BAB, Saves, Feats, and HP that entails). It's just stupid.

Hmm...MM3 does have the battletitan dinosaur... :smirk

Quote
Who was this directed at? If at me, please point where I broke rules, so I can avoid that in the future...

Well, pit fiends can't technically qualify for quicken SLA: greater dispelling since their caster lv of 18 limits them to 5th lv spells, unless you are talking about advancing them and increasing their caster level. Again, I am not faulting you for revising your npc stats, but more of pointing out an inconsistency of sorts. :p

A clear conscience is the surest sign of a failing memory.

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2009, 04:28:08 PM »
Oh yes, that is true now when I think of it. Giving them two additional HD would do it, but that again would adjust the CR.

Handy Links

ZanKhellendros

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • Forever searching the gray
    • FantasyRealms
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2009, 10:27:24 PM »
I'm currently running my first long term campaign where the characters are almost to lvl 10. I find that nerfing each encounter that I planned depending on what shape the players are in just before and again in the middle if things have gone really wrong for the villain or the players. When doing this I would never allow the characters to be killed if it wasnt fare. But normally I plan the CR to be a few levels higher then the characters and stick with it finding that they do well with most things. Boss fights are the ones where mid fight I may add a lvl or two. Sometimes I may even throw in a magical item to counter something the players may try to take advangage of, the reward being said item. I believe someone mention the idea thing earlier. Like I said I'm new to being a DM previous to this years game but I like to think I'm getting the hang of things.

I don't think that any amount of planning will allow you to consistently challenge your players being that part of the game does involve rolling dies and by that introduces random effects for good or bad. As a player I have been killed by encounters well below my CR equivalent and I have utterly smoked things far above; One time being a mature red dragon, where upon defeat another mature red dragon skulked out of a dark corner of the lair, LOL.
"Ghast-a-pult" Robbypants
Fantasy Realms Blog

"Back me up and I'll cut a path through these guys""Sounds good"" Wait, did I say, path? I mean a five-lane blacktop highway with a two-lane service road - and I'm packin' a fist full of tokens and a radar detector"

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: On high level CR-appropriate encounters
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2009, 09:35:53 AM »
One time being a mature red dragon, where upon defeat another mature red dragon skulked out of a dark corner of the lair, LOL.
A nice newb DM trick.

Still, you smoked the BBEG in one shot and were still at full health, so it seemed like a good idea at the time. ;)
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]