Author Topic: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion  (Read 3583 times)

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ksbsnowowl

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Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« on: February 15, 2009, 08:22:15 PM »
Here is the place to bring up rules questions.
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bogsnes

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Re: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 11:04:54 AM »
I don't think that classes like abjurant champion and arcane trickster should be counting at both sides of gestalt.

That is just my opinion, and I wouldn't take either, but when I think "dual progressing class", I think of more like Anima Mage and Fochlucan Lyrist

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 12:04:59 PM »
I don't think that classes ...arcane trickster should be counting at both sides of gestalt.
Full sneak attack and full arcane casting shouldn't be dual progression  ???  Um, no.

Then you get characters like Rogue 5/Scout 10/Highland Stalker 2/Dread Commando 3//Wizard 6/Arcane Trickster 9/Wiz +5, who has full arcane casting, +8d6 sneak attack, +2d6 sudden strike, and +4d6/+2AC skirmish  (That's +14d6, without trying hard).

The point of gestalt is to meld two character archetypes into one.  Not three.
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bogsnes

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Re: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 01:08:14 PM »
I don't think that classes ...arcane trickster should be counting at both sides of gestalt.
Full sneak attack and full arcane casting shouldn't be dual progression  ???  Um, no.

Then you get characters like Rogue 5/Scout 10/Highland Stalker 2/Dread Commando 3//Wizard 6/Arcane Trickster 9/Wiz +5, who has full arcane casting, +8d6 sneak attack, +2d6 sudden strike, and +4d6/+2AC skirmish  (That's +14d6, without trying hard).

The point of gestalt is to meld two character archetypes into one.  Not three.

14d6 is in average 49 HP. A lot of it is also skirmish. That means that you probably will have to manyshot, which means 4 attacks, which again means 200HP, while a charger build (half-optimised non-gestalt) would do about 1000ish. Which do you prefer? (I can show you how to if you wonder)

Also, classes like Abjurant Champion is a good protective mage, which the gestalt rules you presented made impossible without sacrificing a lot of power...

Classes like Anima Mage and the like should still be dual-progressing, though

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 01:34:54 PM »
14d6 is in average 49 HP. A lot of it is also skirmish.
If given time to really make a build, were arcane trickster/unseen seer allowed as you propose, I could almost assuredly get +16 BAB, full casting, and +14d6 sneak attack/skirmish, etc.  One could probably even find room in there for a 1-level Barbarian dip to get Pounce.  I don't have time at the moment, but lets assume you can only do that all and get +13d6 whatever damage.

Now look at the first level spell Chill Touch.  Now you full attack with touch attacks dealing 14d6 damage with each of your 4 attacks.  Now we're talking 196 average damage.  Now throw on the Spellflower spell from the Spell Compendium for 2 chill touches, along with some TWFing feats.  Now we're getting to 343 average damage without difficulty.  Oh, and you're a mage, so you are under a greater invisibility, so you're doing this for 2 or 3 rounds in a row before your chill touches run out.  And we're allowing unseen seer into this as a single side of a gestalt, so we know Hunter's Eye (or whatever the spell is), so we've got another 6d6 sneak attack. Average damage per round is now 490.

I realize there are charger builds that can do over a 100 damage.  I also said I wouldn't appreaciate anything approaching "infinite loops."  Although there isn't a loop involved with charge damages, it falls into that realm.

I've thought through this a long time while making this setting, and I made the rule I did for a reason.  If one of the classes has something you really want or need, you can take it, but at additional cost.  Yes, it revaluates how valuable certain prestige classes are.  That's life.
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bogsnes

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Re: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2009, 01:44:02 PM »
Yeah, whatever... Not that important to me, though...

but full BAB + Arcane Casting is a not too much, in my opinion. I see the bit about SA, but full BAB?

and also, one idea could be the thing that you had to qualify for dual progressing PrCs on only one side of gestalt, so you could take like Clr 3/Wzrd 3/Mystic Theurge since you lose what you normally would if you hadn't gestalted...

Another option is to for example in the case of Abjurant Champion, to reduce his BAB to medium, so you could access the cool class features without nerfing yourself badly.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2009, 04:39:05 PM »
I would like to take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat later, but I'm guessing that the fluff will need to be changed. It is from Champions of Valor, and lets a ranger prepare wizard spells in their spell slots.

Sword of the Arcane Order [General]     
Prereq: pal4 of Azuth\Mystra or rgr4 Mystra, Int13, member of the Knights of the Mystic Fire, order of the Shooting Star, or Swords of the High One.
Benefit: Use spell slots to prepare known wizard spells. Add pal\rgr class levels to wiz level to determine caster level.     
CoV p.34

I'd love to combine it with the Mystic Ranger from Dragon 336, but I didn't think of this when we were starting. So I'd have to redo a couple of things (change the longsword into something else, mainly).

I realize this is a pretty powerful combination, but it's a gestalt game, and I'm not playing a full caster, so... :p

More mystic ranger details, in case the post quoted above goes the way of the dodo:
[spoiler]Mystic Ranger

Gain:
  • Spell progression starting at 0th level spells at first level, continuing up to a small list of 5th level spells
  • Spellcraft as a class skill
Lose:
  • Animal Companion
  • Melee Martial Weapons (keep ranged)
  • Shield Proficiency
  • 5th favored enemy
Unchanged -- ie: come at the standard levels:
  • Track
  • Wild Empathy
  • Swift Tracker
  • Woodland Stride
  • Camouflage
  • Evasion
  • Hide in Plain sight
Changed -- ie: come at different levels:
  • Endurance comes one level later
  • Combat styles come 1 lvl later than usually
  • 1st favored enemy comes 1 lvl later than usually
  • 2nd and 3rd favored enemies come 3 lvls later than usually
  • 4th favored enemy comes at 20th. no 5th favored enemy.
Additional Spells list:
0th level:
create water, cure minor wounds, guidance, flare, know direction, light, mending, purify food and drink, resistance, virtue
5th level:
awaken, baleful polymorph, control winds, cure critical wounds, summon nature's ally V, wall of thorns.[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 05:35:48 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2009, 06:07:21 PM »
Sword of the Arcane Order should be fine; but realize that the wizard caster level is going to be capped at your HD.  I know you aren't aiming for this, but I don't want any Wiz 20//Ranger 20 characters with a wizard caster level of 40...

Sword of the Arcane Order and the Shooting Star ranger sub level could be tied to Odin, and specialize in dealing with fiends and trolls of fiendish parentage.  How's that sound?  It's a sub-group of Odin worshippers that transcends political borders.

Is the Mystic Ranger's caster level still half his class level?  On first look it seems a bit on the powerful side.  Up through 10th level it looks a lot like a Ranger 1/Wizard 9, only losing out on 1 spell slot per day (and possibly an additional 0-level slot missing), but getting better HD, many more skills, better saves, and a decent haul of class features.  I'm inclined to say no, but I will think on it more.  There would be the disadvantage that you wouldn't get 2 free spells in your spellbook each level...

I'd be more inclined to allow it if the spell progression more closely mirrored that of the other d8 HD, Full BAB casting class that gets 0-5th level spells, the Duskblade.  What if the Mystic Ranger's spell progression was altered to be that of the Duskblades, but with half the number of spell slots per day (round down or up, don't know which yet).  Thus it would look like this:

Round Down
Code: [Select]
Level       0 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5
Ranger 01   1   1
Ranger 02   2   1
Ranger 03   2   2
Ranger 04   3   2
Ranger 05   3   2   1
Ranger 06   3   3   1
Ranger 07   3   3   2
Ranger 08   3   3   3
Ranger 09   3   3   3   1
Ranger 10   3   4   3   1
Ranger 11   3   4   3   2
Ranger 12   3   4   4   3
Ranger 13   3   4   4   3   1
Ranger 14   3   4   4   3   1
Ranger 15   3   4   4   3   2
Ranger 16   3   4   4   4   3
Ranger 17   3   5   4   4   3   1
Ranger 18   3   5   4   4   3   1
Ranger 19   3   5   5   4   3   2
Ranger 20   3   5   5   5   4   3

Round Up
Code: [Select]
Level       0 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5
Ranger 01   2   1
Ranger 02   2   2
Ranger 03   3   2
Ranger 04   3   3
Ranger 05   3   3   1
Ranger 06   3   3   2
Ranger 07   3   3   3
Ranger 08   3   4   3
Ranger 09   3   4   3   1
Ranger 10   3   4   4   2
Ranger 11   3   4   4   3
Ranger 12   3   4   4   3
Ranger 13   3   5   4   3   1
Ranger 14   3   5   4   4   2
Ranger 15   3   5   4   4   3
Ranger 16   3   5   5   4   3
Ranger 17   3   5   5   4   3   1
Ranger 18   3   5   5   4   4   2
Ranger 19   3   5   5   5   4   3
Ranger 20   3   5   5   5   4   3

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 06:37:03 PM by ksbsnowowl »
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2009, 06:56:28 PM »
That would be great. No, I wasn't planning on taking any wizard levels at all, but at the same time I think getting wizard spells with the standard ranger progression is so slow that in a PbP I might as well not even bother. ;) Either of your versions looks fine. I'll get a few wiz/sorc spells to play with, but not be stepping on the full casters' toes. With that, it would be nice if my CL=ranger level, though. But I can always take Practiced Spellcaster, I guess. :D

And... I just missed my opportunity to buy spells, lol.


I'm not sure I can do the Shooting Star sub-level and Mystic Ranger together, as they both lose their animal companion.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 08:19:32 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2009, 12:17:13 AM »
With that, it would be nice if my CL=ranger level, though.
So I take it the Mystic Ranger as presented is still 1/2 caster level?

Quote
And... I just missed my opportunity to buy spells, lol.
Well, you can't cast wizard spells yet...  ;)


Quote
I'm not sure I can do the Shooting Star sub-level and Mystic Ranger together, as they both lose their animal companion.
Correct, the one precludes the other.

I'll go ahead and approve it with the revised spell slot advancement of half the Duskblade spells per day, rounded down, but you gain full caster level, instead of half.  So, this one:


Code: [Select]
Level       0 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5
Ranger 01   1   1
Ranger 02   2   1
Ranger 03   2   2
Ranger 04   3   2
Ranger 05   3   2   1
Ranger 06   3   3   1
Ranger 07   3   3   2
Ranger 08   3   3   3
Ranger 09   3   3   3   1
Ranger 10   3   4   3   1
Ranger 11   3   4   3   2
Ranger 12   3   4   4   3
Ranger 13   3   4   4   3   1
Ranger 14   3   4   4   3   1
Ranger 15   3   4   4   3   2
Ranger 16   3   4   4   4   3
Ranger 17   3   5   4   4   3   1
Ranger 18   3   5   4   4   3   1
Ranger 19   3   5   5   4   3   2
Ranger 20   3   5   5   5   4   3

Right now you've just got Ranger spells (until you take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat, and create a spellbook.)
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2009, 03:13:02 PM »
Just realized that Hergierr has a wisdom of 8.  :lol So unless I redo his stats a bit, this would be quite useless to him. I was thinking of focusing on archery for combat instead of melee, anyway. (Looks like we have plenty of melee...). So I might reduce his Str and add it to Wisdom, if that's ok.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2009, 03:53:21 PM »
You haven't really used your skill focus: Diplomacy yet.  You could fairly easily retcon him to have taken Sword of the Arcane Order at first level, moving SF: Diplomacy to 3rd level.  I'll allow you to go into virtual "debt" to get a spellbook with 2 or 3 spells in it.  The wizard spells you cast via Sword of the Arcane Order are determined off of Intelligence, so you Wisdom wouldn't much matter (though Wis still determines your bonus spell slots.)
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2009, 05:35:42 PM »
SotAO requires 4th level ranger. I won't be taking that for a while. ;) I was planning on taking a level of Marshall at 2nd or 3rd, which would give me a bonus feat (since I already have SF: Diplomacy). I'd use that to pick up Point Blank Shot, Ranger 2 would get me Rapid Shot, and at 3rd I'd take Precise Shot.

I'm thinking I can drop Str and Con by 2 each, and bump Wis to 12. Then I'll have 1st level ranger spells, which will come in handy now. If I stick with archery, the drop in those stats should be tolerable. That sound ok with you?

And after posting about stringing his bow, nocking an arrow, etc, I realized that he doesn't have a bow.  :lol
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2009, 06:18:41 PM »
Yeah, that rearrangement sounds fine.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Mythic Sagas: Rules Discussion
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2009, 06:38:45 PM »
Awesome. It's done. :D And now I can heal this poor woman. :p Where the heck is everyone else, anyway? Nanshork and I seem to be the only ones posting...
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]