Author Topic: Advice needed! Binder discussion  (Read 2285 times)

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pfooti

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Advice needed! Binder discussion
« on: February 14, 2009, 02:31:02 AM »
So, there's no binder handbook here. I'm reading through the binder books on 339, but I was wondering if there were any more "from the trenches" reports of using binders in various campaigns that I should know about. It seems like binders have the chance to be the Last Class You Ever Play, with their flexibility and power you might never need to make another kind of character, but whatever. I'm particularly looking at combat binders rather than social ones, although uses of expel vestige or vestige phylacteries (or just 24 hours of waiting) can transform you a bit. Any advice is welcome.

Chemus

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Re: Advice needed! Binder discussion
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2009, 02:38:26 AM »
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=137.0

The formatting is from 339, but it is still a great resource
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pfooti

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Re: Advice needed! Binder discussion
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2009, 02:45:39 AM »
Huh, I thought I looked through the handbook subforum and didn't find anything binderiffic. Thanks. Must be a case of refrigerator blindness.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Advice needed! Binder discussion
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2009, 11:33:47 AM »
There's a few ways to build a combat Binder.  None of these sets your "combat role" in stone, though:

Charging: Pounce, Shocktrooper, Leap Attack, etc.
Commentary: The main schtick to remember in this one is that Chupoclops and Pounce combines great with Power Attack and Shocktrooper.  Using Orthos or Otiax for miss chance and Halphax or Ashdarlon for DR 10 afterwards is a great way to mitigate your (now) low AC.  Combines very well with the natural attack vestiges.

Disabling: TWF tree, Improved Disarm OR EWP, Imp Trip, etc
Commentary: For a full-disabler, I like using Ronove, Zagan, and Chupoclops in order to get maximum usage out of the Imp. Disarm feats (if you're unarmed, you get to wield the thing you just disarmed, which is cool).  Imp. trip is good; everyone I think recognizes that - you won't be as focused (or as good) as a Fighter-based build.  Another route to go is to use Improved Sunder with Aym for double object damage (you know, to really ensure that you never have good loot).

Tank: Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, Active Shield Defense, Combat Reflexes, etc (a few routes to do this)
Commentary: Savnok is THE tank vestige, Buer can help with healing, Halphax gives DR 10 / adamantine and can help with retreating, and Haures gives Mindblank (mainly).

Skirmisher: Combat Expertise, Deadly Defense, EWP: Broadblade (optional), TWF tree (optional), fey-craft weapon, Shadow Blade
Commentary: Use Paimon's Dance with Deadly Defense and Dex-to-Damage methods to get lots of bonus damage against a bunch of individual targets.  Combines very well with a Scout and Swordsage dip.

Mounted: no feats really necessary, just vestiges
Commentary: Use Andras, Eligor, probably Chupoclops to combine Pounce with Smite and Spirited Charge and Ride-by Attack

So, you've got lots of options.  These are the main ways I've seen / worked on.  Hope it helps!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 11:39:29 AM by jameswilliamogle »

woodenbandman

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Re: Advice needed! Binder discussion
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2009, 11:49:57 AM »
I like to combine Chupoclops with Tenebrous. You get a mild miss chance, you get the Flicker mystery useable 3/day, you get infinite turn undeads (which are great against undead, coincidentally), and you have a "poison bite" attack.

After those two, Focalor is a good choice due to his aura of sadness, or maybe the one that grants displacement.

Also, a Binder scout is surprisingly good. At high levels once you can bind malphas (the one that makes you invisible, if that's not his real name) and Marchosias, you're a great assasin. You've got sudden strike, Death attack, Smoke Form, Invisibility... You're pretty much invincible to normal enemies, making you an excellent scout. Combine with Chupoclops (who, to me, is the most useful and versatile vestige ever ever), and you add etherealness to that, so you are mostly unhittable.

Probably would be good if you did this to have a Factotum dip (unless you're going to go to level 20), because it's a BITCH to get enough skillpoints and/or trapfinding, if you're covering those roles.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Advice needed! Binder discussion
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2009, 12:03:22 PM »
Just to clarify: Chupoclops is the most generally useful book supported vestige; Zceryll is the best vestige overall (since summons have SLAs that can trump a lot of the other vestige's abilities).

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Advice needed! Binder discussion
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2009, 01:00:25 PM »
Do we have a consensus on the infinite turn undead thing, woodenbandman? Some fairly hard evidence would be nice but I understand a consensus is sometimes all the can be managed...
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Advice needed! Binder discussion
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2009, 02:40:02 PM »
It's simply stated that you can use it with 5 round intervals, like a lot of Binder abilities. There is no daily limit given.

It's not so bad, really, it can't be used to fuel DMM because you can only use one turn attempt every couple of rounds.
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bogsnes

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Re: Advice needed! Binder discussion
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2009, 02:46:29 PM »
where is Zceryll from anyways?

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Advice needed! Binder discussion
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2009, 02:50:16 PM »
Web enhancement.
IIRC there's a link in the Binder handbook.
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bogsnes

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Re: Advice needed! Binder discussion
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2009, 03:21:05 PM »
Web enhancement.
IIRC there's a link in the Binder handbook.
It is incredibly stong

Good for me cuz I am going to be a Binder :D

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Advice needed! Binder discussion
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2009, 11:48:37 PM »
It's simply stated that you can use it with 5 round intervals, like a lot of Binder abilities. There is no daily limit given.

It's not so bad, really, it can't be used to fuel DMM because you can only use one turn attempt every couple of rounds.
Still really nice for Divine Shield et al (the one that gives temp HP is particularly strong, imo).  But I agree - Tenebrous never really gives you daily turn undead uses.