Being a Christian and a Gamer

[Shadowhunter]

Some thoughts:

You guys are cute.

Thank you, I try my best.

We put it in there because religious people do crazy things just because they have faith, from killing offenders of that faith,

Stupid people are obviously stupid. The wrong part here isn't that they're religious, but that they are fundamentalist aswell as stupid.
They'll probably do crazy things for some other reason, if you took away their religion. There's a difference in having faith in something and being essentially brainwashed.

Your religious beliefs DON'T MATTER when you sit down at the gaming table. If you're there to game, it should be a none issue.

Very true.

I find it amusing that everyone took the time to post specifically what they believe in, then express how tolerant they are for everyone else.

Good for you

But man up and say it-you think you are 100% right in what you believe or else you wouldn't say what religion you are and what that means to you.

Just because I think I'm right doesn't mean I am. I'm aware that I might be wrong, but what difference does that make?
Thinking you are correct and being tolerant isn't mutally exlusive.

I'll say it right here, I'm not even going to pretend: I am intolerant of religions. All of them. Why? Because it's quackery and not true.

Alright.

I'd like to make clear that asking for proof isn't hate. Being a fundamental atheist means that, fundamentally, we believe there is no god. Generally, this also includes harming no innocent third party, because that makes a person a decent human being. Being a fundamental Christian entails...the bible (Well, except for all the parts like the mother bear killing the children, selling your daughters as slaves and parts of Leviticus everyone chooses to pretend don't exist).

Don't forget about the part where you're supposed to stone dissobediant children.

You know what we do hate? We hate the harm that religion brings to people. We hate the wars being fought as a deital (I just made up a word-dibs) pissing contest. We hate the Nigerian witch-children. We hate every time a woman gets raped in the middle east, then gets punished for her scandalous ways. We hate all the harm religion has ever caused, the guise of "Christian Science" and "natural, christian healing" that kills children every year.

I hate nazism. But I don't care if people are nazis unless they try to enforce their view upon people and act out the "ethnic cleansing" or theirs.
Same with religion in this case. The problem isn't that you belive but rather what you belive.

I hate that children are taught every year that you don't have to be good because it's right, you have to be good or you'll suffer in hell for longer that you can imagine.

I'm with you on this part.

I see no good in religion.

I do. But as usual, humanity fucks it up. Many of the results of religion are things you mention, which I loathe myself. I'm not against religion for that, I'm against idiocy. So, at it's lenght, one could say I'm against certain religions that acts in certain ways.
Once again, tolerance to the tolerant, loathe the rest.

We're against the harm that comes out of spreading religion. Read up on the Nigerian witch-children and tell me I'm wrong. That's what I was hoping to find in this thread, and I was sorely disappointed.

Make no misstake, I loathe with the very core of my beeing what some religions do in the name of faith.
So I'm with you so far.
However.
Once again, it's not that you belive but in what you belive.
Separate the problem.

I think I am 100% right." I think anyone could be right, but since beliefs tend to rely on unprovable assumptions, I will claim nothing as absolute with proof. The only thing I'm 100% right about is that I don't know what is right.

I concur.

Fighting for religion, as you should see as you're not sure whether or not there's a god, is beyond crazy. Fighting for a patch of dirt the some god/not god did/didn't promise a people is a waste of living.

Fighting for religion is stupid.
Putting God above the needs of your fellow humans are stupid.

But you can't focus on the wars. You have to see the subtle things as well to realize that writing religion off as harmless is wrong. I use to be in your shoes, I use to not want to be militant and hem and haw over actually speaking up. I use to think that "Hey, if it helps get people through their day to day lives, fine, I don't care", but I opened my eyes to all the more subtle bad things that come out of religion. Children not learning science. Children being taught guilt and fear. Children not learning how to protect themselves when their biology overcomes their religion. It doesn't have to be a war.

Idiots will always be idiots, belivers or not.
I agree with you that children not learning science, refusing to consider Darwin may have a point, saying Satan planted Dinosaurs to lure you from the one true path (I've heard that, I didn't know wether to laugh or cry at the sheer stupidity) are all bad things.

What you are doing, is fighting Religion, when instead what you should be doing is fighting against the appauling mass stupidity of the human race.

Granted, I don't know how you should do that.
Tell you what, I'll give you this:
I'll never, ever, ever due to any religious belives,, hurt, harm or otherwise supress another human.
And you can let me be religious in peace and focus on the true idiots, ok?

Everyone has the right to believe what they want, even if that belief is silly. The problems come when those beliefs infringe on the rights of others.

QTFGT

[Tshern]

I do. But as usual, humanity fucks it up. Many of the results of religion are things you mention, which I loathe myself. I'm not against religion for that, I'm against idiocy. So, at it's lenght, one could say I'm against certain religions that acts in certain ways.

So when something made by humans is fucked by the human nature, there is nothing wrong with the idea per se?

I agree with you that children not learning science, refusing to consider Darwin may have a point, saying Satan planted Dinosaurs to lure you from the one true path (I've heard that, I didn't know wether to laugh or cry at the sheer stupidity) are all bad thing

I can't believe this shit actually flies in some countries. I even have a link to an article that explains how Pittsburgh banned International Baccalaureate high schools (said to be the best non-private pre-university school system, I would know, kind of...) just because some teacher had discussed atheism and socialism. Go free America.

What you are doing, is fighting Religion, when instead what you should be doing is fighting against the appauling mass stupidity of the human race.

The real brains behind this shit obviously aren't stupid, they are greedy. Stupid people could not control the minds of hundreds of millions of others. Shoot the leaders, reclaim the cattle.

[EjoThims]

Being a fundamental atheist means that, fundamentally, we believe there is no god.

And being a fundie is different than being a fundamentalist.

A fundie atheist will discount a person because of their beliefs, without ever talking to or knowing anything about that person. This is the same behavior exhibited by fundies of other faiths (and yes, hardcore atheism is best classified as a faith, since you can never prove a negative - it's literally the belief that no such being exists).

We're against the harm that comes out of spreading religion. Read up on the Nigerian witch-children and tell me I'm wrong.

You're wrong.

Religion and/or belief itself does not harm people. Zealots and brain washing and evil people abusing the faith of others harms people (and often turns those others evil themselves in the process). I know many Christians who are open minded (even self doubtful; belief doesn't require 100% assurance, something else you're wrong about) who have learned science, take medicine and receive proper medical care, teach their children properly, and who live to be good people, not to get a reward. They are few and far between, yes, but if you were correct, they would not exist at all. I also know people of many other faiths who are the same.

It's not hypocritical at all. Everyone has the right to believe what they want, even if that belief is silly. The problems come when those beliefs infringe on the rights of others.

It is hypocritical.

Intolerance of beliefs means those beliefs are (perceived as) not acceptable to have. Tolerance, however, doesn't imply support. Intolerance of gay marriage is the position in most of the US. They don't have the right, plain and simple. But where they do, that doesn't mean everyone is required to like it or support them.

Just as I have to tolerate the presence of Catholicism in this country, but I don't have to like that it exists. To say I am intolerant of Catholics means I would support them losing the right to be Catholic, which would be directly contradictory to a statement saying I would fight for the rights of faith. And attempting to claim both within my personal views would make me a hypocrite.



As for why this thread is about religion and gaming, at least as far as I can tell, it started as a perspective difference, as well as wondering about why so many gamers seem to be so jaded (which was quickly explained) and moved on to a discussion of different belief structures and how they may/may not impact what we personally bring to the table, not what we expect to happen in the game.

Some people's faith is a part of their everyday life, even when they don't force it on others or take any actions to harm others because of it. Even when it's not evident outwardly by the things they do and say, it's their in their mind, and it influences their perceptions just as any filter would. To think that somehow gaming would be immune to this affect is simply foolish.



Also, to Tshern. Everything we do is fucked by human nature. "No good deed goes unpunished" and all that. If we tossed away anything in our lives that anyone could ever potentially break, we'd all be Count Arioch.

Though I agree, the masterminds behind having turned religion into the force for evil and oppression that so many have been for so long are not themselves stupid (though the majority of their followers are). They are brilliant, corrupt, and evil. Far more subtle than Hitler ever was, they are actually capable of turning others into mass murdering fuckheads for their amusement and advancement. If the Christian ideal of a Satan is correct, he's the one running most organized religions (yes, including Christianity, for anyone that didn't get that).

[Shadowhunter]

I do. But as usual, humanity fucks it up. Many of the results of religion are things you mention, which I loathe myself. I'm not against religion for that, I'm against idiocy. So, at it's lenght, one could say I'm against certain religions that acts in certain ways.

So when something made by humans is fucked by the human nature, there is nothing wrong with the idea per se?

In this case, I think that the idea per se isn't wrong but the fucked up version of it is.
That's the best aswer I can give due to the language barrier.

I can't believe this shit actually flies in some countries. I even have a link to an article that explains how Pittsburgh banned International Baccalaureate high schools (said to be the best non-private pre-university school system, I would know, kind of...) just because some teacher had discussed atheism and socialism. Go free America.

It makes one quite pissed, doesn't it

What you are doing, is fighting Religion, when instead what you should be doing is fighting against the appauling mass stupidity of the human race.

The real brains behind this shit obviously aren't stupid, they are greedy. Stupid people could not control the minds of hundreds of millions of others. Shoot the leaders, reclaim the cattle.

Or make sure the cattle becomes smart so that they don't fall for the leaders.
Sad part is, that's a loosing battle which probably never will work. Hell, I'm starting to give up on broaden peoples veiws and I'm 20 years old...

[Tshern]

Also, to Tshern. Everything we do is fucked by human nature. "No good deed goes unpunished" and all that. If we tossed away anything in our lives that anyone could ever potentially break, we'd all be Count Arioch.

My point exactly. Why blame the bad implications of religion on fucked up human minds if the very same fucked up human minds created the thing in the first place?

And leaders of organized religion like Jerry Falwell, my favourite, do it just to get more money, influence and power. I say, fuck them up in the ass the same way they fuck choir boys. Actually, fuck the Pope in the ass too. While you're at it, grab all Zionist and push a baseball bat up their asses too.

[EjoThims]

Also, to Tshern. Everything we do is fucked by human nature. "No good deed goes unpunished" and all that. If we tossed away anything in our lives that anyone could ever potentially break, we'd all be Count Arioch.

My point exactly. Why blame the bad implications of religion on fucked up human minds if the very same fucked up human minds created the thing in the first place?

But the same minds created many wonderful things, the basis of faith among them. Tossing out anything created by a human that a human could break would quite literally leave as with nothing at all.

[Tshern]

Why is the basis of faith a wonderful thing? Why do people need to believe in supernatural powers to act decently? Faith and religions have wrecked so many millions of lives that the very basis cannot be that good, being a decent guy, on the other hand, usually doesn't get people nailed to wooden structures.

[EjoThims]

Why is the basis of faith a wonderful thing? Why do people need to believe in supernatural powers to act decently?

Believing in the supernatural is not the basis of faith.

Hope is the basis of faith, Tshern.

Hope for tomorrow, hope for something grander, hope that all we suffer is worth something, hope in whatever.

But at it's core, all faith relies on hope.

And that's not something I'd like to see this world without.

[Midnight_v]

BS ejo... 
Fear not hope is the basis of faith.

Why is the basis of faith a wonderful thing? Why do people need to believe in supernatural powers to act decently? Faith and religions have wrecked so many millions of lives that the very basis cannot be that good, being a decent guy, on the other hand, usually doesn't get people nailed to wooden structures.

You may need the supernatural thread to keep people from being assholes, because if you look at the general "RULES" of most religions its generally a list of rules to keep people from pissing off other human, who will typically respond with some kind of violence.
If the bulk of humanity was cool with just "Lets not treat each other like shit" then it would never been needed. Soon as some guy goes "awwww Fuck what the rulers say, all they can do is kill me, and by then I'll have already done what I wanted (whatever asshole thing that might be) so the damage is done. I ... raped the western village for instance. You can kill me but that doesn't un-do what I've done. So then the people feel like thier leaders can't protect them then POW new leaders are uhmm... installed.
So you have to figure out a way to convince people that ...
Being an asshole won't just get you killed but "punished".
Also, a way to explain random bad shit happening to them.
........
Mythology and religion have that incommon, come to think of it. A way to explain random bad shit happening. Instead of "Random bad shit happens" which begs the question "why bother doing anything" and that is something no leader wants. Everyone saying "fuck it, why bother".
Sorry quick rant there:
Faith precludes the natural and logical conclusion of "Fuck it all" when confronted with unreasonably bad shit. Much of the unreasonably bad shit happend when the first human looks around and says "Fuck it all". Its a vicious cycle.

[EjoThims]

BS ejo... 
Fear not hope is the basis of faith.

You are, perhaps, speaking more specifically of religious faith?

I meant faith in general. Such as "I have faith that he'll be here." or "I have faith that my team will win the game."

Certainly there may be a fear of the alternative, but that fear is not the reason we expect something which we have no proof of. Hope is. The hope that he didn't someone at the altar. The hope that all your energy invested in your team will allow you to somehow feel more self worth if they win.

You can, of course, also have faith in a negative thing as well. "Oh, he's not going to show up." But still, your hope that he's not going to show up is the cause, not the fear that he might after all.

[Midnight_v]

BS ejo... 
Fear not hope is the basis of faith.

You are, perhaps, speaking more specifically of religious faith?

I meant faith in general. Such as "I have faith that he'll be here." or "I have faith that my team will win the game."

Certainly there may be a fear of the alternative, but that fear is not the reason we expect something which we have no proof of. Hope is. The hope that he didn't someone at the altar. The hope that all your energy invested in your team will allow you to somehow feel more self worth if they win.

You can, of course, also have faith in a negative thing as well. "Oh, he's not going to show up." But still, your hope that he's not going to show up is the cause, not the fear that he might after all.

Nah. I was just joshing ya. This thread was turning too solemn. 

[EjoThims]

This thread was turning too solemn. 

Sorry. A high fever and my body attempting to give itself a lung transplant tends to do that to me. 

[Bozwevial]

I've felt like my lungs were trying to extricate themselves from my chest. Now a self-inflicted lung transplant, that'd be a sight to see.

[Shaun]

BS ejo... 
Fear not hope is the basis of faith.

You are, perhaps, speaking more specifically of religious faith?

I meant faith in general. Such as "I have faith that he'll be here." or "I have faith that my team will win the game."

Certainly there may be a fear of the alternative, but that fear is not the reason we expect something which we have no proof of. Hope is. The hope that he didn't someone at the altar. The hope that all your energy invested in your team will allow you to somehow feel more self worth if they win.

You can, of course, also have faith in a negative thing as well. "Oh, he's not going to show up." But still, your hope that he's not going to show up is the cause, not the fear that he might after all.

This is equivocation on the word "faith." The faith you're talking about is an assumption based on a reasonable knowledge of the person or event that's being referred to. That's different than the religious sense of "faith," which is belief without evidence, or despite evidence to the contrary. It seemed like that was what you were talking about in the post prior to the one I quoted.

[EjoThims]

My lungs are very determined to remove themselves from my body, swap places, and forcibly put themselves back in, all regardless of my consent, of course.

That's different than the religious sense of "faith,"

Other than the abuse of 'faith' (which I myself should have denoted with quotes earlier, as my own comment regarding it was a jab as well - blame the flu for that oversite) by others, no, it's not.

We make these basic, daily, hopeful assumptions before knowing the truth, and often despite  or even contrary to the evidence previously presented to us. Sure, religious faith is often more complicated, and often even far more contrary to evidence, but it all comes from the same basic thing. A good thing.

But, like all tools, it can easily be turned to wrong. But just because a screwdriver can put out an eye doesn't mean the screwdriver is fault.

Look to those abusing the faith of others for how to fix the problem, but don't think that trying to take faith away from everyone makes you any better than those who abuse it for their own ends.

[Shaun]

You cannot equate a belief based on desire - that is, a belief without evidence - with what is essentially an educated guess, hope or no. They are not the same thing.

Also, a depressing truth is better than a false hope.

[Prak, the Mad]

From my understanding, the Hebrews were polytheistic until the clergy of their war god basically went to the other priests, put them to the sword, desecrated their temples, and said that no one was to worship any god but theirs. 

I don't know if it's true or not, but it does explain a lot if it is.

I know that's about how Islam got started, and I think it was more or less true for Judaism also.

Not really the thread topic, but....I've never heard that about the Jews. Ever. Like, this is the first time.
I've heard it about Islam (albeit as the moon god, not the war god). But not judaism.

The moon god was the war god.

However, you heard wrong about Islam.  Islam is an extension of Christianity and Judaism by Mohammed.  The idea that Islam was based off a moon god was literally made up by Jack Chick, and there is no historical evidence to support his incoherent ramblings in any case.

Source? I'm getting my info from an anthropologist.
Besides, I don't think it'd be the first time an idiot was accidentally right for completely the wrong reason.

[CountArioch]

I hate it when I say something controversial and someone else tops it before it sinks in.   

[MasterVega]

Also, a depressing truth is better than a false hope.

That's a matter of opinion. If there is no afterlife, and I suddenly hit the wall of black and cease to exist... what does it matter whether I expected something or not? If I believe what makes me happy in life, is that not the best I can do for myself? Though people here wave off religion as some harmful beast, I don't see how my being happy, and spreading faith to those who desire to know my joy is harmful.

I push my beliefs no more than you push yours. I will state my belief if asked, and share it if others are willing. Do I disapprove of some widely-approved things? Sure. Do I step on people over it? No. Life's too short to be a dickwad bigot, and so I follow one of the principles of my belief: treat others as you would like to be treated. Do I want people to try and take away my beliefs and values? No, so I won't bother trying to shoot holes in theirs.

Maybe my religious beliefs are wrong, but I don't care. If life is a meaningless accident, where we have to live for today for fleeting happiness because there is no here-after, I don't want to be right. Insult me if you like; I'd rather be a happy idiot than a miserable genius - which I would be, well, at least the miserable part, even though you might not.

- end rant.

[CountArioch]

See, if you are using Christianity as inspiration to be nice and stuff, you're doing it wrong. 

Christianity is a hellfire doomsday cult where you are literally expecting the world to end sometime in your lifetime, disregard the laws of the land because they don't apply to you, kill anyone who resists conversion, and in general behave like, well, most of the middle east is behaving right now.

I consider the peace and brotherhood aspect that people claim to be nothing more than false advertising.