Being a Christian and a Gamer

[EjoThims]

Actually, there is infinite space between all points. First you half to get half way there, then halfway from there, then half way from there and so on. eventually you reach points beyond infinite smallness.

 

Erg!

There must be a minimum unit of measure for anything physical to ever get anywhere, whether those things are atoms, electrons, or whatever. The 1/2 of a 1/2 of a 1/2 fallacy can be disproven by throwing any object at any other object. Even if you say it's only the fields around the objects colliding, those fields can only collide because they've been able to move more than that minimum distance.

But that doesn't mean all things require size, or even distance. But for those that do, there is a minimum.

And a point, line, and plane are all concepts, they have no physical basis, even if there is or isn't a smallest thing.

As for my own religious views, the only things I'm sure of is that it's highly unlikely for the Christian style of concept of God to exist (too many logical and philosophical contradictions) and that I hate Catholicism (but that doesn't mean I hate any particular individual Catholic). I believe wholeheartedly that whatever is or isn't out there, it doesn't matter. If such a divine entity existed anyway, it would be so far beyond our scope of understanding as to be uninfluenced by our perceptions, and especially by our worship. I believe that what does matter, and the only thing that matters, is that we all live a good life, and do our best to let (and help) others to do so as well. If there is an entity that rewards us, that is what will be rewarded. If there isn't such an entity, then those actions are how we should be living anyway.

[RobbyPants]

When you go to GenCon and you see the religious protesters there (les so in Indy than in Milwaukee, thankfully)... Those tend to be fundies.

So, that still happens, huh?

When I first started playing D&D, my step dad (at the time) had a big problem with it (luckily I didn't live with him).  He had this seriously fucked up book called Turmoil in the Toychest that he wanted me to read.  The long and the short of that book is that almost every toy is evil in some way, aside from really basic things like balls, Legos, bricks, and crayons.  This extended far beyond D&D.  I remember seeing Trolls (those ones with the crazy hair), Rainbow Bright, He-Man, and Barbie in that book.  It was the most rediculous thing I've ever read.

The thing I've always hated about the D&D = evil mindset (at least with the people I've talked to) is that none of them really know what they're talking about, and they'll admit this.  They make an assertion, I argue it, and they get to a point where they just say that they heard about it from someone else who knows more about it than them.

[PhaedrusXY]

Erg!

There must be a minimum unit of measure for anything physical to ever get anywhere, whether those things are atoms, electrons, or whatever.

Not really. That's based on the assumptions of Zeno's paradox, which is easily solved using modern calculus (a math that didn't exist in his time).


That doesn't mean that his post wasn't total bunk, though. 

[EjoThims]

Not really. That's based on the assumptions of Zeno's paradox, which is easily solved using modern calculus

But you can't have a physical limit, at some point of continued motion, contact will be made.

It's like the whole room that you can fill but never paint idea. It's an interesting concept, but eventually the last bit of paint will be bigger than any continuing minuscule increases and the remainder will indeed be fully painted.

[Kuroimaken]

My religion can be... difficult to explain.

I know I don't believe in Christianism or Catholicism. While the story of Jesus and his journey through the mortal coil is quite a wonderful exercise in literature (not to mention other stories in the same book), the moralism imprinted upon it by Catholics honestly sickens me. Nevermind that the Bible has been used as an excuse for atrocities worldwide - this is no fault of the work itself, after all. What I think I'm most uncomfortable with is the dogma itself, the idea that doing certain things will get you into Heaven or Hell. I do believe in Karma as an universal force, but only as one that acts upon conscience - I do not avoid eating pork or deliberately set crucifixes on fire to sway my entrance to the afterlife one way or the other.

If anything, my beliefs are closer to Shintoism than anything in that I believe in spirits inhabiting all things. I believe a portion of Da Vinci's soul went into painting the Mona Lisa. I believe Michelangelo's David possesses a quality that is nothing short of divine by virtue of the passion in his work. Through personal experience I have felt that a man's fighting spirit can be more dreadful than the man himself. It's hard to detach my mind from all things faithful and base it only on cold logic because there are things that logic cannot explain and likely never will explain. There has to be at least a bit of space to accept that something beyond our ken exists to fathom one's existence.

I just don't believe that something is God or that he watches over each and every one of my actions.

And in saying so, I apologize to a friend of mine who is very devout. She is Lutheran, and she wishes me all the best, hoping I can acknowledge and embrace God before I leave this mortal coil. I feel sorry that of all things in the world that I could hope to do for her, this is likely the only one I'll never be able to grace her with. Not at all.

[RobbyPants]

Nevermind that the Bible has been used as an excuse for atrocities worldwide - this is no fault of the work itself, after all. What I think I'm most uncomfortable with is the dogma itself, the idea that doing certain things will get you into Heaven or Hell. I do believe in Karma as an universal force, but only as one that acts upon conscience - I do not avoid eating pork or deliberately set crucifixes on fire to sway my entrance to the afterlife one way or the other.

And so much of this accounts for the differences between various christians and "christians".  People are very good at citing what they want to cite when it supports their goals, and ignoring the rest.

As a general rule, when someone cites the Bible as a basis for their intolerance or hatred, they're citing the old testament.  This is funny, because the bulk of actual christianity comes from the new testiment.  There are a lot of things in there that either implicitly or even explicitly overrule parts of the old testiment (such as eating pork, and what not).

This isn't an effort to start preaching, but rather to complain about people who abuse religion: When Jesus was aksed what the most important commandment was, he said "love the lord your god with all your heart" and that the second most important one was to "love your neighbor as yourself".  So, the long and the short of it, is the religion itself does not support this level of hatred and intolerance.  It bothers me to no end when "christians" ignore what the son of God listed as the "two most important commandments"

Again, I'm not trying to preach here or anything.  I just want to clarify what it is that bothers me with the line of thinking of justifying hatred with religion.

[/soapbox]

[CountArioch]

Technically, if God does exist, then the Fundies are 100% right.  The Abramaic deity is petty, vengeful, calls on his followers to commit genocide on a regular basis, exclusionary, exhorts his followers to be luddites, teaches that the end of the world is a good thing and therefore we must hasten ecological and social collapse so he can exact his vengeance on non-fundies.  And if you don't give him your undying worship, he will torture you for all eternity upon death.  Not only that, he sent one of his top ranking angels to earth to convince as many people to not follow him so he can torture more people.  And each and every one of us on this board are going to hell, with the worst tortures reserved for the people that claim to believe and yet play D&D and use computers and not beat their wives.

My religious beliefs?  I don't subscribe to any pattern of behavior that would insist that I not discard it once it's obvious it's a bad idea.  Which means I don't have any ethics at all, because being ethical means that you continue to act in the same way even if it's obviously self-destructive to do so.

[Kuroimaken]

Nah, you're just bitter.

[MilwaukeeJoe]

Wow, we're a pretty diverse group!

We've run the spectrum from "Jesus died for my sins" (me) to "God is wicked" to "God doesn't exist" to "Hey, I like Satan!" And a number of 'em in-between, I'm sure.

Hmmm, now to channel this into the game... I should have NPCs that openly bash Pelor. Especially if one of the PCs is a Pelor cleric. My NPCs are too much like me; tolerant.

MilwaukeeJoe

[Kuroimaken]

Wow, we're a pretty diverse group!

We've run the spectrum from "Jesus died for my sins" (me) to "God is wicked" to "God doesn't exist" to "Hey, I like Satan!" And a number of 'em in-between, I'm sure.

Hmmm, now to channel this into the game... I should have NPCs that openly bash Pelor. Especially if one of the PCs is a Pelor cleric. My NPCs are too much like me; tolerant.

MilwaukeeJoe

Extremes are fun to play with like that, just make sure you don't get carried away.

I recall once for a Rival Schools-based campaign, I made a bosozoku (think biker thug type) who was also an otaku (I think you already know the meaning of this word) who fought Kabaddi (Dhalsim's martial art) and played tennis (by extending his limbs). Fun as all hell, but probably would've worn out everyone else if the campaign had progressed much further.

Oh, he was also a pervert.

[Straw_Man]

  We're a diverse group here and most are fairly relaxed about it. You can fundie atheists too, the way they hate is practically religion to them. And thats maybe the problem.

  We all know that religion has and can be used to do evil, evil things in its name. And it's easy to make fun of especially in D&D oxymoronic theology. In RL we distrust the macroscale organised religion, and this sometimes filters down as contempt for the devout.

[skydragonknight]

And a point, line, and plane are all concepts, they have no physical basis, even if there is or isn't a smallest thing.

Correct. All these are concepts. A point has no mass. It is merely a location. One way to visualize a point is the theoretical limit of what an object would look like after getting smaller and smaller after in infinite amount of time.
Mathematics has trouble dealing with absolutes since there is no good way of comparison. You can compare a mile to an inch and even determine the size of a mile relative to the size of an inch-if you know one finite distance you can determine any other finite distance by using the known distance as a comparison. Yet there is no way to compare a point to an inch or an inch to an infinite distance.

Likewise, by claiming God is infinite and trying to measure him with finite human understanding, you will fail miserably. The god that people have in their minds will always be a cheap imitation, infinitely less the real thing should it exist. I'm agnostic due to the simple paradox that if an infinitely complex being exists human beings cannot fathom even the tiniest fraction of it's nature. Can a microscopic organism on a rock fathom a mountain? No. All it can know is that by chance or design the rock is it's home and the environment it is best suited for.

[Tshern]

I was just listening to the Geek Girls Roundtable #2 on the BG Feed, and am wondering how alone I am being both a gamer and also a christian. In the roundtable, some of the ladies discussed their religious views and some issues they have with the 'fundies'.

While as such I don't like believers of any sort, I don't find faith and games exclusive.

Let's say you are believe in the Great Primordial Chicken. Like most religions, this one too states you can't have other gods or dogmas. However, understanding or gaining more knowledge or, most of all, fun from other religions is often encouraged. You might see how Jesus never actually says everyone should steer away from knowledge. I believe religion is largely compatible with gaming even though religion as such is irrational. Really, I am yet to see a single piece of evidence for its support and the same goes for Corellon Larethian. Haven't seen the God, but I've at least seen someone cosplaying Corellon.

[Robert Bohl]

To address the OP question, you're not alone. This thread proves it, but there's also several game designers who are vocal about their religion: Seth Ben Ezra (writer of Dirty Secrets and avowed Christian), Anna Krieder (writer of Thou Art But a Warrior and Roman Catholic), and Julia Bond Ellingboe (writer of Steal Away Jordan and a follower of Sufi Islam) are all game designers who immediately come to mind.

I'm atheist. I don't disbelieve god, but I don't believe him, either. I subscribe to the beliefs of the church of God the Utterly Indifferent. Basically, if there's a god, he doesn't give a flying fuck about us. Why should he? We're puny to him. He's vaster than several universes, and anything we could do for him he could do infinitely better, faster, with less resources used, etc.

So basically, I don't give a crap about god. I just believe that whoever you pray to you should treat everyone fairly and equally, with no exceptions. And stay out of people's shit once in a while. That's why I fully support gay marriage: I don't believe that it's any of my damn business to tell you who to marry. Marry anyone you want.

I actually believe what you described would fall under Agnostic rather than Athiest. Agnostic has a whatever or prove it approch while Athiest actively denies there is a chance at god existing. At least that is how i understand it.

Depends on whose definition you use. What I find most useful is Richard Dawkins's spectrum of theistic probability. For a long time I referred to myself as an agnostic, but after reading The God Delusion, I decided to start "coming out" as an atheist.

To be precise, according to the aforementioned spectrum, I'm a "de facto atheist." This is, in my opinion, the only scientifically responsible take to the god question. De facto atheism is: "Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'"

In terms of tolerance, I find it difficult to respect beliefs that I consider to be patently false and often damaging. However, I acknowledge the great deal of good these beliefs do for some people, and I also believe in being polite. Which means I don't shit on the belief systems of my friends.

[CountArioch]

Nah, you're just bitter.

I really wish people would stop saying that about me.

[RobbyPants]

Really, I am yet to see a single piece of evidence for its support and the same goes for Corellon Larethian. Haven't seen the God, but I've at least seen someone cosplaying Corellon.

That's the beauty about non-falsifiable theories and beliefs.

[Tshern]

[Tshern]

Really, I am yet to see a single piece of evidence for its support and the same goes for Corellon Larethian. Haven't seen the God, but I've at least seen someone cosplaying Corellon.

That's the beauty about non-falsifiable theories and beliefs. ;P

I think the Christian god is easy to prove wrong. Just tell any Christian you know to win a lottery without using a ticket. I tell you, according to God's ratio, he will fail. God's ratio means that a shitload of people who pray for the same thing will win when one wins. How about 30 people pray for a different roulette number?

[RobbyPants]

I think the Christian god is easy to prove wrong. Just tell any Christian you know to win a lottery without using a ticket. I tell you, according to God's ratio, he will fail. God's ratio means that a shitload of people who pray for the same thing will win when one wins. How about 30 people pray for a different roulette number?

Well, that also depends on what the christian's "beliefs" are.  It's quite obvious that prayer isn't 100% certain.

Seriously, it's one of those things you can't prove either way.  People are going to have their mind made up about it one way or the other, and no arguing is going to change that.

[Tshern]

Yeah? Even if you have a grain of belief, you can move mountains. Either you can move mountains when you belief or you have to make belief tangible and that just can't work.

Also, why does God never heal amputees? Sure, "cripples" apparently walk, but why does no TV priest give someone his legs back? Does God hate these people? Or perhaps it is because God told caused the death of thousands of children and condones misogynism.

Anyway, Christianity is a pile of bullshit. Bullshit.