Being a Christian and a Gamer

[skydragonknight]

If life is a meaningless accident, where we have to live for today for fleeting happiness because there is no here-after, I don't want to be right. Insult me if you like; I'd rather be a happy idiot than a miserable genius - which I would be, well, at least the miserable part, even though you might not.

People give life meaning by their thoughts and actions regardless if their is a "deeper meaning" or not. Life has meaning because of the choices you make. Be the number of choices few or many, the ability to think, and the abilities to perceive and influence the course our life takes is meaning enough for me.
We may all be doomed. So what? Just let me enjoy the ride. Even if things suck, I'll keep on playing life's game 'til I run out of quarters: and I have a bag full of them, so unless someone takes them(kills me) I'm going to keep on playing, and keep on making the decisions I want to make or have to make until it's over.
That's one meaning of life; I'm sure there are more. But if a person has no other meaning, they at least have the right to play the game while it lasts and experience all they can of it.

[MasterVega]

See, if you are using Christianity as inspiration to be nice and stuff, you're doing it wrong.

And who are you to tell me I'm doing my beliefs wrong? What if I made up my own belief based upon shiny, happy parts of Christianity?

Christianity is a hellfire doomsday cult where you are literally expecting the world to end sometime in your lifetime,--

See, I've always read it to be prepared for the world to end, not to expect. If the world ended now, I'd be fine with my life as it is. I've actually grown rather tired of the "God's coming! Look busy!" ministry. Should we not be operating at our best at all times, or at least trying to do so? The ensuing global chaos brought on by a sudden disappearance of all Christians might sound cool to a lot of believers (actually, it makes an awesome campaign setting), but it's not all the faith is about. There's only one book in the New Testament that focuses on the apocalypse; most of the other stuff is in the less-forgiving Old Testament... which has its importance, but is by far not the focus of the Christian faith, as stuck on it as many might be.
Control is important to those seeking power, after all. What better way to control the people than focus on the more ridged beliefs of a people?

--disregard the laws of the land because they don't apply to you, kill anyone who resists conversion, and in general behave like, well, most of the middle east is behaving right now.

Wow, that sounds very Old Testament, and a stretch even then... I could have sworn Jesus gave the commandment to "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and even to love your enemies. Unfortunately, we have "fundies" who ignore the actual fundamentals of the Christian belief ruining its face and reputation... A major culprit* ruled a large portion of Europe for many centuries...
And the disregarding the laws part? That's about laws that oppress the values of your faith. Otherwise, we're taught to follow the laws.

I consider the peace and brotherhood aspect that people claim to be nothing more than false advertising.

I'd say you're paying too much attention to people laying claim to a belief and failing to uphold it, not that I've never failed. That's the flawed nature of humanity, though. It's humanly impossible to love everyone, but it's always helped me to try.

Thanks for avoiding passive aggressive shots at me or other people on this thread, though (I did give you a free pass to do so). As much as I've come to expect it on boards like this one, being called insane for believing in a higher power does get old.

*That culprit has reformed today, and though I still have problems with it, it's far from what it was in centuries gone by.

@ skydragonknight - Hey, if you can enjoy living a different way than I do, awesome for you. I won't stop you. Just let me enjoy mine while you're at it. (Not saying you don't.)

[CountArioch]

Thanks for avoiding passive aggressive shots at me or other people on this thread, though (I did give you a free pass to do so). As much as I've come to expect it on boards like this one, being called insane for believing in a higher power does get old.

I prefer just being aggressive.  Sure, I can me a real jerk, but at least everyone pretty much is aware of where they stand with me from my end.

Also, even if I think someone's beliefs are loony, I generally can't be arsed to try to change them.

[MasterVega]

I prefer just being aggressive.  Sure, I can me a real jerk, but at least everyone pretty much is aware of where they stand with me from my end.

And that makes you much more tolerable to debate with than... well, than a lot of people. Really.

Also, even if I think someone's beliefs are loony, I generally can't be arsed to try to change them.

I've come to the same conclusion on my end. If someone seeks what I believe. I'm more than happy to share, but if they'd rather stay away... well, it's not like I can change their mind.

[EjoThims]

You cannot equate a belief based on desire - that is, a belief without evidence - with what is essentially an educated guess, hope or no. They are not the same thing.

I'm not talking about 'hoping' that the pizza guy will arrive with my pizza (he did, and it's delicious, despite the pain eating it causes). I'm talking about hoping for weeks that your team will beat an equally matched one, or even one that's better. One is an educated guess, an assumption based on past behavior. The other is the belief without evidence. Belief without evidence is not solely the domain of religion, but it, along with the faith required to have those beliefs, is a part of religion. Just as it is a part of rooting for your team, even if they are the underdog.

Also, a depressing truth is better than a false hope.

There is no such thing as 'false hope' the way you mean it; one could, of course, lie about the hopes they have. There is only 'improbably delusion.' The odds of me being hit right now by a stray meteorite are so low as to be silly, but with how miserable I feel, it doesn't stop me from hoping it happens. And that hope is not a falsity, no matter how unlikely it is, nor how much I know of it's unlikelihood.

I would also disagree with you that there is a fully objective truth, especially when dealing with concepts and ideals beyond the mere physical realm. And no, I don't mean spirits. Things like the concept (not the chemical reaction) of happy or sad. More even than the world around us, these things are affected and filtered by our perceptions and expectations. Who are you to say what is wrong for another to hope for, as long as their actions as part of that do no harm to those around them? But that's exactly what you do when you attempt to label things like hope and belief with 'true' or 'false.'

Hope isn't about whether it comes true or not. And by extension neither is faith or belief. It's about the hope itself, the faith itself, the belief and the conviction itself. Because next year you'll be right back there, sitting on the edge of your seat, thinking your team's gonna win this time. And that's fine. That's as it should be. That is a beautiful (though sadly, quite abusable) thing.

Besides, if you were going to die tomorrow of unexpectedly gruesome events, would you rather find out now, knowing that there was nothing you could do to stop it, nor time to get in any big life changing moments? Or would you rather keep living your life, enjoying it to the last?

I'll give you a hint, if you'd rather know in order to get your shit together, you're probably going about life in a way that's detrimental to yourself.

See, if you are using Christianity as inspiration to be nice and stuff, you're doing it wrong.

Because the ways of those who abuse the faith must be the ways of all who follow it? Really, that's quite a dismal outlook, even for you. I haven't done much readings on his actual teachings, but I don't recall the quote from Jesus saying "kill anyone who resists conversion," nor do I recall his speech on how we must all fear the coming of the end. I do recall he mentioned some things in the civil disobedience area, but next will you start calling anyone who upholds the tenets of MLK mass murdering crusaders?

And Vega, life is it's own meaning. Sure, when you get down to it, all this is because of some super competitive, virulent proteins that are hell bent to replicate themselves endlessly, no matter the resources consumed, but from that has come such wonderful things, including our ability to even have this conversation.

But, gods (all of them - just in case), there are things in this world that are so wondrous, so beautiful, that honestly, I think if there were some kind of paradise on a higher plane (heaven, ascension, valhalla, what have you), it would pale in comparison. And so what if it all ends, I'm glad just to have been able to enjoy what I did.

That said, I'd really love a new computer... Anyone got 4k to lend me?  

[Tshern]

Why is the basis of faith a wonderful thing? Why do people need to believe in supernatural powers to act decently?

Believing in the supernatural is not the basis of faith.

Hope is the basis of faith, Tshern.

Hope for tomorrow, hope for something grander, hope that all we suffer is worth something, hope in whatever.

But at it's core, all faith relies on hope.

And that's not something I'd like to see this world without.

So why add all the asskissing and, let's face it, hopelessness? According ti Christianity billions upon billions of people were doomed to Hell way before the entire religion even started. How fair is that? Knowing that a god who's willing to throw innocent people to Hell just because he didn't bother to tell them about his existence is pretty scary. Doesn't give me any hope at all.

[veekie]

Human nature is why, Tshern. The way to control people requires the hefty stick of fear, which is a lot more palatable if you add the honey of hope. Both are very primal emotions([spoiler=whups, lotsa text]I've read somewhere that hope is in itself a derivative of the same processes that allows us to think, as when reason and evidence can provide no solution to a problem, the answer is to assume there is a solution, and proceed with other problems. Which works, sometimes, and is generally more effective than giving up and ending it when it's life or death. You can guess what that means to natural selection. Likewise, once assumed or proven true, the mind will tend to stick to it's guns, especially if decisions have already been made on that basis. To do otherwise would mean admitting you are wrong.[/spoiler]), and in combination appeal strongly to the mind. Fear spreads faster than hope, being an immediate reaction, but hope lets it stick around better instead of going to the next new fear. Theory is if you scare the crap out of someone, and then offer a lifeline, they would be more liable to bite.

Notice how religion tends to get an upsurge in converts and general devotion when times are tough. Even lapsed believers are apt to pray at the brink of death, in the hope that there IS something after life, which neatly also handle the fear of something you can't do anything about.

It's a multi ply structure, part social control, part coping mechanism, part survival mechanism(the unity thing, also seen at the national and family scale, helps handle scarcity and big problems), part excuse(as an extension of the coping mechanism), and all human nature. Neutral overall.

[Tshern]

I know religions were made to control people, that is pretty obvious, but I am not sure why the so called intelligent believers can't see that. Since a crucified zombie won't save their asses anyway, I don't see the point of following any dogma.

[j0lt]

I know religions were made to control people, that is pretty obvious, but I am not sure why the so called intelligent believers can't see that. Since a crucified zombie won't save their asses anyway, I don't see the point of following any dogma.

I have yet to meet a single believer who follows the same cynical train of thought as you.  Religions weren't MADE to control people, they were ALTERED to do so.  The original point of religion is far from control.

[Tshern]

Sure, all the illogicalities just happen to lie there. Like how for some odd reasons God happens to like slavery and sees women as not being equal to men. Such things just fucking slipped his mind.

[Robert Bohl]

Sure, all the illogicalities just happen to lie there. Like how for some odd reasons God happens to like slavery and sees women as not being equal to men. Such things just fucking slipped his mind.

I think religion is bullshit, too. I think that more often than not it isn't helpful. But what's the point in being a shit to people about this? What are you achieving? (This goes for more than just Tshern.)

[Tshern]

Why try to teach people anything? And, of course, most really religious people treat me the same way.

[j0lt]

Why try to teach people anything? And, of course, most really religious people treat me the same way.

Well that's a perfectly good justification!    Hell, that attitude is EXACTLY what's wrong with the world!
Here's something good that you seem to have either not learned, forgotten, or ignored that most really religious people follow:  The Golden Rule.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

As for these "most really religious people", I have yet to actually meet them.  Having grown up in a strictly Christian environment for the first 20 odd years of my life, most people I knew were far more tolerant, kind, and understanding than you are showing yourself to be.

[Tshern]

Honestly, if I said I solemnly believe in Santa Claus, would you take that seriously?

[j0lt]

Honestly, if I said I solemnly believe in Santa Claus, would you take that seriously?

That's not the point, nor is it the same thing in the least without some seriously overdone rationalization.  Even so, I sure as hell wouldn't attack you over your beliefs.

[Tshern]

That is exactly the point, the faith people place on supernatural shenanigans and stories. What's the difference between Santa Claus and God? Or, say, Odin and God? I mean what is the difference when it comes to belief. For some reason it seems entirely normal to believe a story when enough people have been killed in its name.

Also, I have met plenty of religious folks who don't follow the Golden Rule. Would Jehovan witnesses want me to come to their door telling how coll Georgi Plekhanov was? The religious right that tries to ban music other people find pleasant. That doesn't sound too nice either. Or David Wildmon who started a chain reaction that eventually resulted into a nice decision regarding the First Amendment. Would he want people to come and take the Bible from his hands?

(Edit: Forgot choir boys and a number of priests.)

I am attacking their beliefs, not the people themselves. A lot of believers have never had the chance to even think their stuff over, environment's influence is huge.

[Cam_Banks]

I am attacking their beliefs, not the people themselves. A lot of believers have never had the chance to even think their stuff over, environment's influence is huge.

So what do you gain from doing this?

Cheers,
Cam

[Tshern]

What does anyone ever gain from arguing over the internet? A special olympics medal.

[j0lt]

That is exactly the point, the faith people place on supernatural shenanigans and stories. What's the difference between Santa Claus and God? Or, say, Odin and God? I mean what is the difference when it comes to belief.

Belief in a higher power is almost completely universal across all the disparate cultures of the world.  Call it God, call it Odin, call it Flying Spaghetti Monster, I don't care.  The story of Santa Claus was based a real man whose story outgrew reality and became legend.  Big difference.  

For some reason it seems entirely normal to believe a story when enough people have been killed in its name.

You could say the same thing about believing in your country.  That's a straw man argument.

Also, I have met plenty of religious folks who don't follow the Golden Rule. Would Jehovan witnesses want me to come to their door telling how coll Georgi Plekhanov was? The religious right that tries to ban music other people find pleasant. That doesn't sound too nice either. Or David Wildmon who started a chain reaction that eventually resulted into a nice decision regarding the First Amendment. Would he want people to come and take the Bible from his hands?

Sounds like you're trying to justify prejudice based on the actions of the few.  Religion doesn't make people act like that.  Those types of people are already like that.  Religion is just a tool they use to excuse their behaviour.  I see no difference between the religious right persecuting D&D players and you persecuting religious people.

(Edit: Forgot choir boys and a number of priests.)

Again, last time I checked, it's not just priests that do shit like that.

I am attacking their beliefs, not the people themselves. A lot of believers have never had the chance to even think their stuff over, environment's influence is huge.

No, you are attacking the people themselves for believing differently than you.  Environment's influence IS huge, but that's a two way street.  You can't bitch about an evangelical christian trying to convert you with fire and brimstone speeches on one hand, then turn around and call religious people fools for not seeing things your way.  That makes you just as bad as the people you so vehemently dislike.

[Midnight_v]

Honestly, if I said I solemnly believe in Santa Claus, would you take that seriously?

That's not the point, nor is it the same thing in the least without some seriously overdone rationalization.  Even so, I sure as hell wouldn't attack you over your beliefs.

From his perspective... I could see it being very much the same. No overrationalization needed.

I'd have not problem with religion except for its evils. If there was just the "good" ones and not the Bad ones. Cool.
If the "good" ones didn't tend to isolate and condem then this animosity wouldn't happen.
I was raised christian, so I am christian, I suppose if I was raised muslim I'd be muslim.
Its all about indocrination. . . so. . . to keep they're way of living they "shun" the non-believers.
No there's various scales of it, but how many devout christians are out kicking it with the "sinners"?
While still respecting the "sinners" beliefs/way of life.
Muslims? Same way, but typically more extreme.
What I dont' like about "faith" is that it chooses to ignore evidence... its static and the universe we live in much like the knowledge that we gain... is not static.
Still though... GOD, theoretically could come and trup all that...
.....
I'm reminded of something....
...
I asked a friend once would he rather have a his daughter marry a christian man who would live with her and he'd have an extremely hard life, or a non-chrisitan man who'd give her the a life that would be excellent beyond all expectations.
He said... the hard life. I asked this question to many many others. Same answer over and over again.
Its just an interesting sidenote. You can answer it if you like...