Saves versus Defenses

[bkdubs123]

like the idea of casters rolling to determine how strong their spell effects are, but it does cause problems with AoEs. If a wizard uses Glitterdust, for example, all the monsters in the area get their own roll, so you'd likely have some pass and some fail. If it's just one roll by the caster, you'd start seeing every monster in the area blinded if he rolled well, or every monster totally fine if he rolled poorly. Doesn't feel right.

I always handle that by giving individual monsters +/-2~5 points of AC/saves (depending on CR). It's always worked out for me.

I really dislike the idea of a "Defense Save" on top of Fort, Ref, and Will saves which are also all defensive, I'd have to reimagine what Armor does

I agree it sounds a little weird. I've always fancied having AC tied to BAB or level and armor perhaps giving it a boost or just being DR. But probably not quite like the UA variant. Let me know what you think up, so I can steal your ideas.  

As far as AC alongside Defenses, I actually have always hated that too. If the Reflex Defense is roughly equivalent to Touch AC then doesn't it seem like Armor ought to just add to Reflex Defense against weapon attacks? That kinda feels awkward too, but it just might work. When I look at using the "Players Roll All The Dice" variant, having a separate "Weapon Attack Save" apart from Fortitude or Reflex it feels like the old AD&D "Dragon Breath Save" to me. It just feels arbitrary.

[veekie]

^^
The solution to using Reflex Defense for AC is to make Armor grant damage reduction instead(and so the max Dex reduces your Reflex Def indirectly, but significant damage reduction gains making up for it)

[bkdubs123]

^^
The solution to using Reflex Defense for AC is to make Armor grant damage reduction instead(and so the max Dex reduces your Reflex Def indirectly, but significant damage reduction gains making up for it)

It is something I'd considered. Reflex is substituted for AC and Armor grants (potentially) resistance to all types of damage while Shields grant +X to Reflex against attacks and, depending on the shield, a miss chance of varying size while fighting defensively.

Would it be worth it to track Armor hit points? The notion being that when your Armor prevents damage via DR that amount of damage is instead dealt to the armor. Using rules for crafting you could then repair said damage away later.

[Bloody Initiate]

I like the idea of casters rolling to determine how strong their spell effects are, but it does cause problems with AoEs. If a wizard uses Glitterdust, for example, all the monsters in the area get their own roll, so you'd likely have some pass and some fail. If it's just one roll by the caster, you'd start seeing every monster in the area blinded if he rolled well, or every monster totally fine if he rolled poorly. Doesn't feel right.

Yet the idea of someone in the very center of a burst avoiding all damage because they're particularly agile (Evasion + Rolled well on Reflex) feels right?

I'm not trying to support one side or the other here, just pointing out that what "feels right" is really just familiar and accepted rather than sensible.

In another system I play an agile defense does NOTHING against area effects because if you are in the AoE you are affected. No amount of dodging that doesn't get you out of the AoE can save you. That makes sense.

Evasion + High Reflex should take you out of the area to the nearest unaffected square assuming you're capable of moving that far, or it just shouldn't work.

I dropped a few hundred damage in area effects once and the GM didn't even try to justify the two guys who rolled well with Evasion surviving it. He joked that they hid in each other's shadows, because one explanation is as dumb as the next.

I don't really have a problem with Evasion + High Reflex working within an area effect, I just don't think it "feels right," and also don't think "doesn't feel right" is a valid criticism of a mechanic (Although I don't deny things SHOULD "feel" good as much as possible, it's usually a personal preference though).

Actually I think Area Effects should trigger saves (You are being attacked by a location) and Targeted effects should attack defenses (You are being attacked by a person), but that's adding a layer of complexity when you don't lose much going for simplicity.

[RobbyPants]

That's... actually kind of awesome. So PCs have Saving Throws, but NPCs have Defenses. I'd like to appropriate this for my "3.5 revisions," but because I really dislike the idea of a "Defense Save" on top of Fort, Ref, and Will saves which are also all defensive, I'd have to reimagine what Armor does... hmm... good food for thought though.

I think it helps to figure out what armor does in the first place: it makes you take longer to die.

D&D's AC system works because it makes you get hit less often and you... take longer to die.

A DR-based system works because you get hit for less damage and you... take longer to die.

Of course, there are some stark differences between the two, namely in that DR-based armor tends to work well against lots of little attacks and attack-negating armor works well against single big attacks.  But, really, there's no reason to make it any more complicated than that.  If the end result is "you take longer to die", then I'd look for the easiest way to get that done and call it a day.  Adding one layer of complexity (perhaps a hybrid system or something) is nice if it lets you make choices, but generally speaking, simpler is better.


Personally, I could see either keeping it as-is (simple), or replacing AC with Reflex and adding in some type of percentage-based DR (rather than a flat number that doesn't scale).  Alternately, you can scale the DR number with level or BAB to keep the math simple and get a similar effect.

[Runestar]

I like how defenses effectively make touch AC useful again, unlike in 3e, where touch attacks were virtually auto-hit.

[Prime32]

Of course, there are some stark differences between the two, namely in that DR-based armor tends to work well against lots of little attacks and attack-negating armor works well against single big attacks.  But, really, there's no reason to make it any more complicated than that.  If the end result is "you take longer to die", then I'd look for the easiest way to get that done and call it a day.  Adding one layer of complexity (perhaps a hybrid system or something) is nice if it lets you make choices, but generally speaking, simpler is better.

"work well against lots of little attacks" makes more sense to me. Since in most media where a guy is noted as having unusually tough armour, an attack strong enough to penetrate it will kill him instantly (or at least grievously wound him).


What about granting DR and AC? The DR doesn't apply to piercing attacks (they rely on hitting weakpoints, but are harder to aim), and the AC doesn't apply to bludgeoning attacks (hitting the armour itself still transmits the impact). Slashing attacks have better attack/damage in general, but not enough to cancel out the effects of armour (weapons like katana are most effective against unarmoured targets).

[veekie]

I like the idea of casters rolling to determine how strong their spell effects are, but it does cause problems with AoEs. If a wizard uses Glitterdust, for example, all the monsters in the area get their own roll, so you'd likely have some pass and some fail. If it's just one roll by the caster, you'd start seeing every monster in the area blinded if he rolled well, or every monster totally fine if he rolled poorly. Doesn't feel right.

Yet the idea of someone in the very center of a burst avoiding all damage because they're particularly agile (Evasion + Rolled well on Reflex) feels right?

I'm not trying to support one side or the other here, just pointing out that what "feels right" is really just familiar and accepted rather than sensible.

In another system I play an agile defense does NOTHING against area effects because if you are in the AoE you are affected. No amount of dodging that doesn't get you out of the AoE can save you. That makes sense.

Evasion + High Reflex should take you out of the area to the nearest unaffected square assuming you're capable of moving that far, or it just shouldn't work.

I dropped a few hundred damage in area effects once and the GM didn't even try to justify the two guys who rolled well with Evasion surviving it. He joked that they hid in each other's shadows, because one explanation is as dumb as the next.

I don't really have a problem with Evasion + High Reflex working within an area effect, I just don't think it "feels right," and also don't think "doesn't feel right" is a valid criticism of a mechanic (Although I don't deny things SHOULD "feel" good as much as possible, it's usually a personal preference though).

Actually I think Area Effects should trigger saves (You are being attacked by a location) and Targeted effects should attack defenses (You are being attacked by a person), but that's adding a layer of complexity when you don't lose much going for simplicity.

Well, as I understand it, an area attack does not instantaneously fill the entire affected space, but is rather an uneven shockwave. So it can be possible to slip through a chink in the blast form, though it typically calls for cover somewhere within the zone.

As for DR, you COULD scale it with Enhancement bonuses to armor, and while you're at it, convert magical sources of Armor AC to similar DR.

[RobbyPants]

What about granting DR and AC? The DR doesn't apply to piercing attacks (they rely on hitting weakpoints, but are harder to aim), and the AC doesn't apply to bludgeoning attacks (hitting the armour itself still transmits the impact). Slashing attacks have better attack/damage in general, but not enough to cancel out the effects of armour (weapons like katana are most effective against unarmoured targets).

If I were to make a hybrid system to plug into 3E, I'd do something roughly like this:

You'd have some Dodge value and an Armor value.  Dodge would make you harder to hit, and Armor would absorb hits:

Dodge:
Now, I like the idea of using Reflex for this, but you could also use touch AC if you wanted to keep things simple.  You'd get some Dodge bonus from your levels (possibly directly based on BAB).  Shields would grant Dodge, and so would Enhancement bonuses to the armor you're wearing.

Armor:
This is basic damage reduction.  The only exception is I'd have the value scale based on your BAB.  So (pulling numbers out of my ass), you'd get something like:
  Light Armor: +2 Armor +1/2 BAB
  Medium Armor: +2 Armor + BAB
  Light Armor: +2 Armor +2 x BAB

The numbers could be tweaked, but the idea is your DR would scale with your level, and thus the damage you expected to take.  I don't know if I'd get more complicated than simple light, medium, and heavy armor or not.  So, the net effect would be you'd likely have a lower Dodge than what your 3E AC would be (unless maybe if you used 10 + Reflex), but you'd have a noticeable amount of DR in place of it.  A side effect would be having to rework crap like a Barbarian's class-based DR.

[Prime32]

A side effect would be having to rework crap like a Barbarian's class-based DR.

Have them gain DR as if they were wearing heavy armour. Gives an added incentive for going bare-chested.

[bkdubs123]

As for DR, you COULD scale it with Enhancement bonuses to armor, and while you're at it, convert magical sources of Armor AC to similar DR.

This is basically how I was planning on dealing with it. Armor would grant a small bonus to Fortitude saves against some attacks and lots of DR. Shields would grant a small bonus to Reflex saves against some attacks and possibly some concealment. This would be in conjunction with the change to the "Players Roll All The Dice" variant so that against any kind of attack, whether it's a melee attack, a mind-afflicting effect, or an area blast, the player rolls a saving throw.

But yeah, as long as a player invests in it their DR should grant them an appropriate amount of protection (think something like DR 50/-- which is also equivalent to Resist All Elements 50 when wearing +5 Adamantine Fullplate).