Author Topic: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]  (Read 33990 times)

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awaken DM golem

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2011, 06:34:15 PM »
I think i might have stumbled upon a way to play an illithid savant without actually being an illithid, or spending massive amounts of gold on rituals or POA that is vulnerable to dispels.

I will try and do this in stages, and if i am wrong or makes a mistake in one of the steps, hopefully someone else can help find another solution.

Step 1: Play as a changeling.

The changeling has the "Minor Change Shape" ability. This uses the restriction from the disguise self spell, but the changes are physical and real. This wont give me any abilities from the race i turn into, other than i look like the race, and get +10 to disguise.

The only restrictions in disguise self is size and general shape. So you will be able to look like templated forms, so long as you stick with a size and general shape that is humanoid and medium.

Step 2: Use "Minor Change Shape" to take on the appearance of an [Incarnate Construct] [Effigy] Mind Flayer.

You are now disguised as a medium humanoid.

Step 3: Pick the "Racial Emulation" feat from RoE, and you now count as the race your disguised as, so long as it is a humanoid race.

Is there any RAW flaws in this?

I like it. And just one feat in a build.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2011, 06:38:04 PM »
I looked but couldn't find much info on it; I thought Legacy Champion could not advance a PrC into its epic form (and so not be useful for illithid Savant) or am I barking at the moon?

Im done with that build but I'm waiting on the LC question, since epic illithid Savant is too good to ignore.


hmm ... I should have answered this, and while I had access.

Anybody have the Weapon Of Legacy book handy,
to check whether the Legacy Champ PrC
advances base classes above 20, or PrC classes above 10 (or 5) ?? !!
Same with Uncanny Trickster in CAdv (iirc).

 ???

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2011, 06:39:40 PM »
I think i might have stumbled upon a way to play an illithid savant without actually being an illithid, or spending massive amounts of gold on rituals or POA that is vulnerable to dispels.

I will try and do this in stages, and if i am wrong or makes a mistake in one of the steps, hopefully someone else can help find another solution.

Step 1: Play as a changeling.

The changeling has the "Minor Change Shape" ability. This uses the restriction from the disguise self spell, but the changes are physical and real. This wont give me any abilities from the race i turn into, other than i look like the race, and get +10 to disguise.

The only restrictions in disguise self is size and general shape. So you will be able to look like templated forms, so long as you stick with a size and general shape that is humanoid and medium.

Step 2: Use "Minor Change Shape" to take on the appearance of an [Incarnate Construct] [Effigy] Mind Flayer.

You are now disguised as a medium humanoid.

Step 3: Pick the "Racial Emulation" feat from RoE, and you now count as the race your disguised as, so long as it is a humanoid race.

Is there any RAW flaws in this?

I like it. And just one feat in a build.


So do you figure it will work? If so, this "trick" will work for any "monster" prc that uses medium humanoid shaped monsters. Such as the slaad and yan-ti prc in savage species.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2011, 06:50:19 PM »
<snip> If I gain +1 level to a class, and advancement is listed to level 10, what happens? </snip>
There are two sides to that.

A. There is no 11th level therefor you cannot obtain it.
B. Level based variables continue on. See also Bloodlines.

I believe the forums generally handle things as B. Progression past the highest level only continues for effects that are based on your level. IE no made up Spell Table or I get Super Evasion, but like Hellfire Warlock 3 / Uncanny Trickster 3 has a +10d6 Hellfire Blast.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

CustosTheFluffy

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2011, 07:34:39 PM »
Stupid question time....

Say there is a level 20 Binder with a very tasty brain.
And now lets say I clone this Binder.
And let us further say I crack open the clone's skull like a Lunchable and have a snack.
....What just happened?

sirpercival

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2011, 07:44:55 PM »
What it probably should have said is "if the former character was a spellcaster and illithid savant chooses the 'spellcasting' class feature as the target of this ability, the illithid savant is able to blah blah blah."  However, it doesn't say that, all it says is essentially "if you eat a spellcaster's brain, you get spell slots".
You know that is something I have overlooked.

Basically you *can't* obtain Class Features from classes with spellcasting, you only gain their spell slots instead. While Ex/Su/Sp based Class Features are still up for grabs, the untyped ones are not. Like Summon Familiar & Domains. I wonder if that was intentional given the Cleric/Druid spontaneous subs would be dropped as well.

So what you're saying is that there's no way an IS can get, for example, supernatural spell, because when he eats a spellcaster's brain all he can get is the spells, and not the class features?

That can't be right.  That's not how I read it at all.  I read it as "you choose a class feature.  if it was a spellcaster, you get spells."  Obviously it should be you CAN (or MAY) get spells, but I definitely do not read it as "you get spells to the exclusion of other class features".
Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

NeverGetDrunkButStaySober

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2011, 08:30:33 PM »
SorO's logic seems to have taken a strange turn somewhere. The text of Acquire Class Feature certainly doesn't limit you to only taking spellcasting from a spellcaster's brain; no language discusses exclusivity with respect to it in particular. The only sensible dispute is as to whether gaining spellcasting uses up a class feature slot (the obvious intent, and certainly implied by the epic example NPC) or instead occurs in addition to gaining a class feature.

Keep the first line in mind, however: "...an illithid savant permanently gains one class feature...", and the last line: "...the illithid savant can gain another class feature...", both implying that class features are in general given out singularly.

Also, "stacking" of class features, so far as I can tell, was never addressed by the Sage. The closest thing we had was a discussion by the authors (who said both yes - Jennifer Clarke Wilkes - and no - Rich Redman*), and a rambling thread about that same discussion with no clear consensus. (Keep in mind, of course, that many class features are binary and thus would not stack with themselves purely by logic - like Evasion, for instance.)

*If you take a lot at the bit about Cumbrous Dodge you'll see that Rich is quite willing to change the rules if he thinks some outcome is abusive.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2011, 09:07:17 PM »
Oh yeah I half read it, Joker was signing to me and my attention waned. I really should stop posting while playing games I think. GoD is partly to blame with my last mess up over Midnight V the other day.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Bastian

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2011, 09:19:19 PM »
I think i might have stumbled upon a way to play an illithid savant without actually being an illithid, or spending massive amounts of gold on rituals or POA that is vulnerable to dispels.

I will try and do this in stages, and if i am wrong or makes a mistake in one of the steps, hopefully someone else can help find another solution.

Step 1: Play as a changeling.

The changeling has the "Minor Change Shape" ability. This uses the restriction from the disguise self spell, but the changes are physical and real. This wont give me any abilities from the race i turn into, other than i look like the race, and get +10 to disguise.

The only restrictions in disguise self is size and general shape. So you will be able to look like templated forms, so long as you stick with a size and general shape that is humanoid and medium.

Step 2: Use "Minor Change Shape" to take on the appearance of an [Incarnate Construct] [Effigy] Mind Flayer.

You are now disguised as a medium humanoid.

Step 3: Pick the "Racial Emulation" feat from RoE, and you now count as the race your disguised as, so long as it is a humanoid race.

Is there any RAW flaws in this?

I like it. And just one feat in a build.


So do you figure it will work? If so, this "trick" will work for any "monster" prc that uses medium humanoid shaped monsters. Such as the slaad and yan-ti prc in savage species.
I checked through all the bits and pieces and I would say it works.

Halinn

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2011, 09:38:51 PM »
Purely RAW, the text on Acquire Class Feature seems to say that in addition to gaining a class feature from delicious brains, if the former owner of said brain was a spellcaster, you gain spellcasting abilities. This is a silly thing, but there's no 'instead' in the text:
Quote from: Savage Species
At 3rd level, an illithid savant permanently gains one class feature of a consumed brain's owner, as a character of that creature's level in that
class. If the former character was a spellcaster, the illithid savant is able to cast one spell of each level available to the character

sirpercival

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2011, 10:01:04 PM »
Purely RAW, the text on Acquire Class Feature seems to say that in addition to gaining a class feature from delicious brains, if the former owner of said brain was a spellcaster, you gain spellcasting abilities. This is a silly thing, but there's no 'instead' in the text:
Quote from: Savage Species
At 3rd level, an illithid savant permanently gains one class feature of a consumed brain's owner, as a character of that creature's level in that
class. If the former character was a spellcaster, the illithid savant is able to cast one spell of each level available to the character

This was exactly my point.
Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

Maat_Mons

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2011, 05:04:18 AM »
Use "Minor Change Shape" to take on the appearance of an [Incarnate Construct] [Effigy] Mind Flayer.

The question is, what does it mean to be a creature?  I've always figured it means having the appropriate subtype.  That interpretation makes effigy a problem, since it wipes out subtypes, but dustform is fine. 

Lo77o

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2011, 05:17:31 AM »
Use "Minor Change Shape" to take on the appearance of an [Incarnate Construct] [Effigy] Mind Flayer.

The question is, what does it mean to be a creature?  I've always figured it means having the appropriate subtype.  That interpretation makes effigy a problem, since it wipes out subtypes, but dustform is fine. 

The thing is, there is no [Illithid] subtype :S
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Maat_Mons

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2011, 05:48:19 AM »

Lo77o

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2011, 05:53:04 AM »

That was my first thought. But pretending to be a templated race seems more raw then pretending to be a race with specific feats.
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sirpercival

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2011, 11:40:43 AM »
Won't that work for getting into Beholder Mage too?  If you start as a Gauth, I mean (though you'll run out of eyestalks for the highest level spells, I guess).
Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

Bastian

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2011, 12:07:51 PM »
By RAW I do not think they qualify since the prerequisite is "Half-human race or human-descended race" and not all Illithids are made from humans. Since not all Illithids are made from humans but all Illithids still count as the same race, their entire race can not be said to be human descended.

Maat_Mons

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2011, 04:04:00 PM »
Won't that work for getting into Beholder Mage too?

The incarnate construct template can only be applied to a construct with two arms, two legs, and a head.  If you can find templates that add those things, sure. 

awaken DM golem

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2011, 06:12:40 PM »

(gets popcorn and watches closely)
 :)

Widow

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Re: Illithid Savant Information [In Progress]
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2011, 10:18:57 PM »
I looked but couldn't find much info on it; I thought Legacy Champion could not advance a PrC into its epic form (and so not be useful for illithid Savant) or am I barking at the moon?

Im done with that build but I'm waiting on the LC question, since epic illithid Savant is too good to ignore.

I looked but couldn't find much info on it; I thought Legacy Champion could not advance a PrC into its epic form (and so not be useful for illithid Savant) or am I barking at the moon?

Im done with that build but I'm waiting on the LC question, since epic illithid Savant is too good to ignore.


hmm ... I should have answered this, and while I had access.

Anybody have the Weapon Of Legacy book handy,
to check whether the Legacy Champ PrC
advances base classes above 20, or PrC classes above 10 (or 5) ?? !!
Same with Uncanny Trickster in CAdv (iirc).

 ???

While I don't believe that a firm answer is available for progressing the class epically, you both still missed the best part.  Eating a level 10 legacy champion will grant you 8 levels of class progression.  The first eat will let you finish off Illithaid savant and put another level into something else.  Take for example.

Psionic Illithaid 15/Thrallherd 1/ Illithaid savant 3.

Eat one Advance class abilities: 7 savant 1 Thrallherd
Eat two Advance class abilities: 8 Thrall herd

Now you have 10 effective levels of savant, 17 levels of telepath progression (using the 9 telepath levels from psionic version), 10 full effective levels of thrallherd.  Not bad for a level 19 character.  You can always true res the legacy champion for the second eat.  If you cannot stack the "progress class ability" more than once, that just means you can save your second eat for something else, like psionics or whatever you want.

Now the only downside is how does it work epic illithaid savant.  Once you are epic, do you need 10 levels in the class to take the first epic level if you are an effective level 10?

There is also that mind dragon (Brain stealer maybe) or whatever it is called in dragon magazine 337.  It is a dragon Illithaid.  If I remeber correctly it is 7HD with a LA of +5, saving you three levels and granting that all so sexy dragon type.  Any thoughts of if it is Illithaid savant capable?