Author Topic: Shapeshift vs. wild shape  (Read 8651 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

LimaBeanMage

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 75
    • Email
Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« on: February 03, 2009, 05:48:14 PM »
Ah the classic argument for druids. Even though wild shape always wins, I always seem to find myself second guessing the choice.

I am helping one of my players create a druid for my new campaign, starting at level 1. I didn't want to stress the build too much for him, so it would simply be either a shapeshfting druid/warshaper or a wild shaping druid/MMF/warshaper.

Though, when I thought about it, shapeshifting just seems more versatile in the end. While wild shape is immensely powerful, and quite broken with Assume Supernatural Ability, it occurred to me that it is nothing more than shapechange a few levels early as a class ability. It seems a little more optimal to choose a class feature, like shapeshift, that is more well balanced throughout more levels and wait for your big guns at 17th level. That is, more optimal than taking feats upon feats and prestige classes to obtain what you're going to get if you wait a few more levels anyway.

What do you think of this matter?

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2009, 05:57:15 PM »
Wildshape is king because it lasts for hours/class level, and  you can be a bear at level 8. Yes. A bear. And cast spells as a bear.

Shapeshift is just stupid because you give up half your power, which is your spells, and you lose your animal companion, too.

Arcane-surge

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 222
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2009, 06:14:26 PM »
I like the idea of shapeshift as a simpler and more balanced Wild Shape, but I don't know that the execution is that great. The fact that it doesn't count as Wild Shape for feats/classes/items leaves druids out in the cold a bit, and the bonuses that it gives aren't great, considering that they don't stack with most popular druid buffs.
This space intentionally left blank.

Runestar

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 820
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2009, 07:49:40 PM »
Shapeshift was probably created because of all the complaints of the druid being a spellcasting tank. So now, you can still be either a fighter or a caster, just not both at the same time.

It is immensely easier to use though. Simply add its stat modifiers directly on top of your existing stats, no need to recalculate them or wonder if your skills change, or what special features alternate form grants. Enhancement str bonus means no stacking with bite of the werebear.  :smirk
A clear conscience is the surest sign of a failing memory.

Straw_Man

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1145
    • Email
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2009, 11:28:17 PM »
Shapeshift was probably created because of all the complaints of the druid being a spellcasting tank. So now, you can still be either a fighter or a caster, just not both at the same time.

It is immensely easier to use though. Simply add its stat modifiers directly on top of your existing stats, no need to recalculate them or wonder if your skills change, or what special features alternate form grants. Enhancement str bonus means no stacking with bite of the werebear.  :smirk

  Simple but stupid. Whhen WOTC they also get carried away. The mechanics of SS (Shapeshift) with the ability to cast spells with a feat investment ould have been fine. But no, their nerf hammer was itchy. I truly wonder if they understand the idea of 'professional game-designer'. It's an am amatuerish fix.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

VennDygrem

  • Member
  • Grape ape
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
    • Email
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2009, 01:02:38 AM »
Well, the shapeshifter can shapeshift as a swift action, meaning you don't have to waste too many actions switching back and forth. However, who really wants to have to keep track of that many variables every round? Sure, you could just have two (or more) different character sheets, but that's just ridiculous. Shapeshift should be folded into a martial-only character, if used at all. It makes a dandy ACF for full BAB classes like the Ranger (in effect removing most of the class features that make it what it is), but it's hard to justify nonetheless.

Bell

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 237
  • The Goddamn Batman
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2009, 01:25:14 AM »
even though it's not as powerful, (by a long shot) I still like it for it's simplicity and for it's flavor.  Just allow natural spell to work with shapeshift, and (in my opinion, anyway) we have a relatively slick ACF for wildshape. 

(the simplicity goes a long way for me)

sonofzeal

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 04:48:21 AM »
Well, the shapeshifter can shapeshift as a swift action, meaning you don't have to waste too many actions switching back and forth. However, who really wants to have to keep track of that many variables every round? Sure, you could just have two (or more) different character sheets, but that's just ridiculous. Shapeshift should be folded into a martial-only character, if used at all. It makes a dandy ACF for full BAB classes like the Ranger (in effect removing most of the class features that make it what it is), but it's hard to justify nonetheless.
Problem is, the core druid has the same problem - worse, because there's more animals than their are Shapeshift types.  Translating stats and recomputing saves and do my hitpoints change and do I get Pounce what about "Skills" section does casting spells still make sound does it raise the spellcraft DC to recognize can I cast if my WC form is grappled or can I shrink/grow sizes to escape BLAAAAAAAAAAAAGH.  And then start the whole process over again for every animal you might want.  Personally, I never play a druid without a full mini-charsheet for EVERY SINGLE FORM that I expect to be using, and even then, sorting through the rules is nuts.  WC links to Polymorph which links to Alter Self, and every single one of those implies paragraphs of rules and exceptions and BLAAAAAAGH.  Then you find the Polymorph errata files, and, boy, were you having fun BEFORE!

Shapechange is easier, by a heavy margin.  I'll accept that it's weaker though.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 04:56:59 AM by sonofzeal »

Emy

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2009, 05:04:27 AM »
Shapechange is easier, by a heavy margin.  I'll accept that it's weaker though.

You mean Shapeshift, right? Shapechange is pretty damn high up there on the power scale.

BowenSilverclaw

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5337
  • Walking that fine line between genius and insanity
    • Email
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2009, 06:51:05 AM »
Eschew Materials and Surrogate Spellcasting (yeah, Savage Species, I know...) should help a Shapeshifting Druid somewhat.

Personally I've never had issues with Wild Shape (only used it as a player, never DM'd for a Druid except for one inexperienced player a long time ago), but I do always prepare mini-sheets for the forms I'm most likely to use, just like sonofzeal mentioned :)
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

ksbsnowowl

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1645
  • Wishing I was a raging Norseman
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2009, 12:39:33 PM »
Personally I've never had issues with Wild Shape, but I do always prepare mini-sheets for the forms I'm most likely to use, just like sonofzeal mentioned :)
As do I.  I use the initiative cards that are free from www.thegamemechanics.com; they work great.

Personally, I hate the shapeshift variant, and won't allow it in my campaigns.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

KSB Snow Owl's Archer Build thread

Bell

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 237
  • The Goddamn Batman
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 02:19:39 PM »
Personally, I hate the shapeshift variant, and won't allow it in my campaigns.

Hate? Really?  I mean, it's not as powerful, sure, but it's simpler by a long shot.  I know if a player came up to me and said, "I'd like to trade this superpower that I have for a simpler, less powerful version, plus I won't have to keep track of an Animal Companion," I would jump at the chance.

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 02:52:08 PM »
Personally, I hate the shapeshift variant, and won't allow it in my campaigns.

Hate? Really?  I mean, it's not as powerful, sure, but it's simpler by a long shot.  I know if a player came up to me and said, "I'd like to trade this superpower that I have for a simpler, less powerful version, plus I won't have to keep track of an Animal Companion," I would jump at the chance.
I think... I think its the animal compaion loss that did it for me.
It was such a ... such a mindless slap down.
I don't even LIKE the druid (okay okay I do like the aberation wildshape druid, something about the outer dark!)
I don't even like the druid, but I knew that was such fuckery, I couldn't abide it.
They didn't even try.
Well take the 2-3 things than make you God
and ....
Give you some 1 thing to replace it! Well!

.... they didn't even try.  :pout
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Bell

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 237
  • The Goddamn Batman
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 02:54:01 PM »
Personally, I hate the shapeshift variant, and won't allow it in my campaigns.

Hate? Really?  I mean, it's not as powerful, sure, but it's simpler by a long shot.  I know if a player came up to me and said, "I'd like to trade this superpower that I have for a simpler, less powerful version, plus I won't have to keep track of an Animal Companion," I would jump at the chance.
I think... I think its the animal compaion loss that did it for me.
It was such a ... such a mindless slap down.
I don't even LIKE the druid (okay okay I do like the aberation wildshape druid, something about the outer dark!)
I don't even like the druid, but I knew that was such fuckery, I couldn't abide it.
They didn't even try.
Well take the 2-3 things than make you God
and ....
Give you some 1 thing to replace it! Well!

.... they didn't even try.  :pout
I suppose I can understand not liking it for those reasons, and it does seem hastily done, I guess the part I don't get is why don't you allow it in your games? 

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2009, 03:00:24 PM »
 ???

...
Oh! You're talking about KSB.
  Well not to answer for him but, I wouldn't allow it in the same way I wou'dn't allow people to take "toughness" either.
... but I do allow it, as a direct trade off with Wildshape...and it count as wild shape for feats and last hours.
And you don't lose an animal compaion (unless you want to)
and you can take natural spell (or you know... Eschew Materials & surragate spellcasting).

You only feel so bad about playing a druid when someone's playing a Monk, really...

\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Bell

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 237
  • The Goddamn Batman
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2009, 03:14:55 PM »
???

...
Oh! You're talking about KSB.
  Well not to answer for him but, I wouldn't allow it in the same way I wou'dn't allow people to take "toughness" either.
... but I do allow it, as a direct trade off with Wildshape...and it count as wild shape for feats and last hours.
And you don't lose an animal compaion (unless you want to)
and you can take natural spell (or you know... Eschew Materials & surragate spellcasting).

You only feel so bad about playing a druid when someone's playing a Monk, really...



I didn't even realize it wasn't him that answered, actually. 

BTW, those seem like pretty reasonable things to do for shapeshift, Midnight.

Straw_Man

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1145
    • Email
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2009, 03:30:04 PM »

  I'd be cool with losing the AC if SS counted as Wildshape for feats, and could last for hours. Still weak but playable and goes back to the simplicity concept, but with elegant design instead of WotC's brand of enthusiastic incompetence.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

ksbsnowowl

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1645
  • Wishing I was a raging Norseman
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2009, 03:40:25 PM »
Hate? Really?  I mean, it's not as powerful, sure, but it's simpler by a long shot.  I know if a player came up to me and said, "I'd like to trade this superpower that I have for a simpler, less powerful version, plus I won't have to keep track of an Animal Companion," I would jump at the chance.
Yeah, I hate it.  There are a myriad of reasons, among them that Druids are my favorite class, and they (and their animal companions) have a prominent part in my homebrewed Scandinavian campaign.  And I'm the kind of person who hates change.  So, yeah.  I'm not defending it as the "right" position, but it is the position I take, nonetheless.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

KSB Snow Owl's Archer Build thread

Dictum Mortuum

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1160
  • always female suspects
    • Email
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2009, 06:35:26 PM »

  I'd be cool with losing the AC if SS counted as Wildshape for feats, and could last for hours. Still weak but playable and goes back to the simplicity concept, but with elegant design instead of WotC's brand of enthusiastic incompetence.

I think that the ability is usable at will and only takes a swift action to activate. No need to make them last for hours.
Dictum Mortuum's Handbooks: My personal character optimization blog.


Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Shapeshift vs. wild shape
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2009, 06:37:01 PM »

  I'd be cool with losing the AC if SS counted as Wildshape for feats, and could last for hours. Still weak but playable and goes back to the simplicity concept, but with elegant design instead of WotC's brand of enthusiastic incompetence.

I think that the ability is usable at will and only takes a swift action to activate. No need to make them last for hours.
Fair enough. Damn where you been hiding?  ???
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"