Author Topic: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)  (Read 78961 times)

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fliprushman

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #180 on: February 05, 2009, 05:54:00 AM »
I'm not sure you are the one that needs to think about the power scale so much as the players do.  It's the player's as well as any dm's job to pick the level of power that is appropiate for the party.  Wizards may be tempted to break the metagame, but they should know, "with great power should come great resposibility"...Ok Uncle Ben may not be a good example for DnD. :lol

However, one more thing on Contact other Plane, the DM could be a jerk and increase the DC by 2 thanks to the "DM's little friend."  So even taking 10 could find itself not working for a few more levels. ;)  Yeah, Contact other Plane should not be brought up in discussion on serious matters of Fighters vs. Wizards. :lmao
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #181 on: February 05, 2009, 06:18:10 AM »
I'm not sure you are the one that needs to think about the power scale so much as the players do.  It's the player's as well as any dm's job to pick the level of power that is appropiate for the party.  Wizards may be tempted to break the metagame, but they should know, "with great power should come great resposibility"...Ok Uncle Ben may not be a good example for DnD. :lol

However, one more thing on Contact other Plane, the DM could be a jerk and increase the DC by 2 thanks to the "DM's little friend."  So even taking 10 could find itself not working for a few more levels. ;)  Yeah, Contact other Plane should not be brought up in discussion on serious matters of Fighters vs. Wizards. :lmao

Well, increasing the DC is equivalent to decreasing the chance of getting the correct answer.  For example, increasing it by 2 effectively just makes the wizard try to contact an intermediate deity instead of a greater deity (88% chance of correct answer reduced to 75%).  More castings are then needed for the same confidence interval, of course. 

For a 10th level wizard, the benefit of being sure he has exactly the right spells for any situation is going to be counterbalanced by Contact Other Planes taking up two of his four fifth level slots, making it much more useful as a pre-adventure buff than a day-to-day spell list selection).  The choice between four decent fifth level spells and two perfectly chosen ones isn't obvious except in certain circumstances - which, in my mind, makes it a pretty well balanced choice when you first get it.

The problem is, although initially the usefulness is fairly well balanced against the resource cost, it quickly gets broken at higher levels, since the marginal utility of additional contact other planes only increases when you have more varied and powerful spells to select from, and the marginal value of a few fifth level slots decreases as you get more and higher leveled slots, along with being able to purchase pearls of power.  It's very much like the 2e chromatic orb, in that respect.
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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #182 on: February 05, 2009, 06:28:05 AM »
These threads are epic.
But unfortunately they are epic-er on 339.

Epic Fail, you mean?

That, too. Basically in threads like this we deal with the tree and lose the forest. For example, take the current argument. An average wizard can fare just fine using general buffs. I mean what can a fighter do? Attack you? The worst thing is probably the stunlock in an antimagic field, which is still escapable :p
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #183 on: February 05, 2009, 08:11:13 AM »
These threads are epic.
But unfortunately they are epic-er on 339.

Epic Fail, you mean?

That, too. Basically in threads like this we deal with the tree and lose the forest. For example, take the current argument. An average wizard can fare just fine using general buffs. I mean what can a fighter do? Attack you? The worst thing is probably the stunlock in an antimagic field, which is still escapable :p

Shrink Item+ Adamantine cone = hat FTW.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #184 on: February 05, 2009, 09:46:36 AM »
These threads are epic.
But unfortunately they are epic-er on 339.

Epic Fail, you mean?

That, too. Basically in threads like this we deal with the tree and lose the forest. For example, take the current argument. An average wizard can fare just fine using general buffs. I mean what can a fighter do? Attack you? The worst thing is probably the stunlock in an antimagic field, which is still escapable :p

Shrink Item+ Adamantine cone = hat FTW.

And then you tip your hat to him. Before taking his stuff. :lmao
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juton

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #185 on: February 05, 2009, 10:46:14 AM »
I see the Adamantine hat brought up a bit, how thick does it need to be to stop a fighter's attack? A fighter can presumably do 60+ damage in a single attack, if he moves up using the maneuver sudden leap he could still full round attack the cone.

The best case for the fighter if the cone was breakable would be that there is a rent that a Wizard could move out of, but only though the fighter's square. Worst case is the cone just goes away and the Wizard withdraws (then quickened pwnage).

Arcane-surge

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #186 on: February 05, 2009, 10:51:12 AM »
Not sure, but there's an Instantaneous duration spell in one of the Eberron books that'll increase the hardness of it, making it tougher to crack.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #187 on: February 05, 2009, 10:54:35 AM »
Magic Vestment, Magical Treatment, Hardness. That's a Hardness of 30 + half CL * 2 I believe. Which means barring Stone Dragon stuff, he probably can't even damage it.

Usually that combo is used in conjunction with Shapechange (incorporeal creature) so that even if they do break through, you've already 5' stepped into the ground.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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woodenbandman

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #188 on: February 05, 2009, 10:56:03 AM »
No what the real strength of the cone hat is is that it blocks the line of effect of the antimagic field. Then you teleport out. His antimagic torc is used up, and you're free to conjure walls of stone on his head.

Arcane-surge

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #189 on: February 05, 2009, 11:05:28 AM »
My question is, how much would such a cone cost?

(Also, since hardness is instantaneous, how would multiple castings interact?)
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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #190 on: February 05, 2009, 11:07:46 AM »
Thats really interesting.
Does it have to be adamantine? I'm not sure if I'm getting it.
I wear this cone as a hat? How small could we get it? How big could it be...
Hmm...
Would a brick hat work in that case? We only need a sec to get away really.
Futher there's always like contingency... :Anti-magic field: prismatic wall
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #191 on: February 05, 2009, 11:26:12 AM »
Doesn't work. The contingency triggers as soon as the AMF hits you... which means it can't activate because it's suppressed.

The hat works because having the magic suppressed is actually what you want. AMF hits you, cone grows back to full size, blocking Line of Effect.

The adamantine is so they can't break it easily.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #192 on: February 05, 2009, 01:21:49 PM »
A fighter can presumably do 60+ damage in a single attack, if he moves up using the maneuver sudden leap he could still full round attack the cone.
The cone won't appear until he's quite close, within 10 feet, and after he's moved a bit already. Can most fighters do 60 points with a single attack while inside an AMF? I doubt it.


The real limit on the adamantine/iron "hat" is the weight. It goes down by 4000x when shrunk, so a 1 lb "hat" will weigh 4000 lbs unshrunk. That's actually not that much material to make a dome out of, if you do the math on it. I think it winds up being about 3 or 4 inches thick, if it's iron and 4 feet tall, and hemispherical.

Also, you can set your Contingency to go off "when the hat unshrinks", and the fighter won't even get a chance to hit it before you're already gone (Dimension Doored 1000 feet up, raining death on his head, etc).
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 01:31:59 PM by PhaedrusXY »
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RobbyPants

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #193 on: February 05, 2009, 01:29:26 PM »
The cone won't appear until he's quite close, within 10 feet, and after he's moved a bit already. Can most fighters do 60 points with a single attack while inside an AMF? I doubt it.
What's the radius on AMF? 10 feet?  It all depends on the cone's radius.  If the fighter can start his action ten feet away from the cone, he could Leap Attack charge it and get +4:1 damage per attack penalty.  With a high enough BAB, he could overcome that.

Otherwise, yeah, I think he'd be hard pressed, as multiple attacks have to overcome hardness separately.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #194 on: February 05, 2009, 01:33:26 PM »
The cone won't appear until he's quite close, within 10 feet, and after he's moved a bit already. Can most fighters do 60 points with a single attack while inside an AMF? I doubt it.
What's the radius on AMF? 10 feet?  It all depends on the cone's radius.  If the fighter can start his action ten feet away from the cone, he could Leap Attack charge it and get +4:1 damage per attack penalty.  With a high enough BAB, he could overcome that.

Otherwise, yeah, I think he'd be hard pressed, as multiple attacks have to overcome hardness separately.

Yeah, AMF has a 10 foot radius, and the "hat" I'm talking about is 8 feet wide. So he'll be 2 feet from it when it unshrinks. So unless he'd already initiated a charge, and the DM lets him finish it against the "hat" instead of the original target (the wizard), he won't be charging it.

I think I'm the one that came up with this originally, and it was for a gnome or halfling wizard, so a 4' dome that's 3 or 4 inches thick would be fine.


Edit: Here is the math. Since we don't know the density of adamantine, we'll use steel. The density of steel is 490 pounds per cubic foot, or 0.255 lbs/in3. So a 4000 lb steel dome would take up 8.163 ft3.
The volume of a sphere is 4/3 pi r3. A hemisphere would be 2/3 pi r3.
A hollowed out one would be found by subtracting the volume of the interior from the volume of the whole, so
4/3 pi r1 3 - 2/3 pi r23 = 8.163

Setting r1 = 4, and r2 = 4-x, and plugging in and solving for x, we ultimately get that x is almost exactly 1 inch (I guess I remembered my previous math incorrectly, or it was a bit off).

So our dome will only be 1 inch thick if we want it to weigh a pound when unshrunk. Even using standard, unenhanced adamantine, the fighter would need to deal over 40 points of damage to break through the dome, assuming he has an adamantine weapon in his hands when the dome unshrinks (or 60 points if not).

So yeah, it can't take too much punishment, but it does give you a brief moment for a Contingency to kick in, and maybe even for a Quickened spell, depending on if the fighter actually gets to attack it in the same round as he moves up to you with the AMF.

Or you could wear a thicker and heavier hat. For each lb of increased weight while shrunk, you add an inch of thickness while unshrunk, 4000 lbs of weight, and a bit over 8 cubic feet. You can shrink 2 cubic feet per CL, so a 9th level wizard could have a 2 lb hat that unshrinks into a 2 inch thick dome, etc.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 04:04:24 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #195 on: February 05, 2009, 01:35:42 PM »
Well, it'd have Hardness 80 with a CL of 20th. Add 2 to that per two CLs higher. I think you could manage CL 27th, without even turning to any particular cheese just off Karma Bead, CL rings, and CL stone. Is consumptive field available to Wizards? If it isn't you can just UMD it to get it higher. Even without it though, Hardness 86. Use Stone Dragon or don't bother.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Negative Zero

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #196 on: February 05, 2009, 01:39:47 PM »
Okay, this might be a little radical, but here's a way past the Stone Dragon idea:
Wear two hats.

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #197 on: February 05, 2009, 01:44:50 PM »
Okay, this might be a little radical, but here's a way past the Stone Dragon idea:
Wear two hats.

Win.
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

woodenbandman

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #198 on: February 05, 2009, 02:05:47 PM »
Actually, it's entirely possible for a barbarian build to break that 86 hardness, on a charge anyway. But all you need is that instant so that you can quickened dimension door out of there.

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #199 on: February 05, 2009, 02:23:07 PM »
Or, you know, invoke magic -> dimension door.
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