Author Topic: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)  (Read 78954 times)

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SorO_Lost

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #100 on: February 02, 2009, 09:00:03 PM »
Adamantine armor does jack shit, aside from slowing you down. The crystals don't last very long. DR x/-, max (x * 10) a day means it's probably all drained in fight 1.
So you're counter point to beatsticks being able to lower their secondary stat is you have to buy more than one 3k item?

So I guess that means back on the point of you claiming all beatsticks are MAD and wizard don't need near as many ability points that my side has proven true. And that's without dipping into races, templates, classes, spells, etc. that hand out str & con boosts like their candy reducing the base scores needed to be effective even more.

Also, define bad saves. Because the difference is 6 points, ...
A wizard can use Bracers of Empyreal Armor +6 (valued at 64,000gp) to make up the difference sure.

But hey, that's 64k of gold this supposedly wizard does not need to invest in to make up the difference and the monk who requires more items than anything else in the game don't... Umm, sure? Where are you going with this again?

What kind of dumbass Wizard is sleeping out in the open?
Probably the one that thinks he needs less items than anyone else. You should have a talk with him.

And for fuck's sake, stop insulting the board's intelligence.
I'm not insulting the board. I'm just pointing out a wizard requires gear, a counter point to one person thinking they don't.
Fast fact: You are not the board. Less ego please.

they may not be able to afford a proper cloak, especially if they fall into the 'good save' trap, the 'thinks he's a caster killer because of SR' trap, the 'thinks he's good naked instead of the most equipment dependent class in the game' trap... all of which, based on your post YOU are falling into and more.
A. it's a response to a wizard not buying items to boost their saves. Stop and think on that long enough to get around those 'I'm going to bitch' thoughts. Same secondary stat priority, same no items. Oh look, the monk has 6 more points than the wizard. I guess the too item dependent class has less need of a cloak that the supposedly needs no items class you're defending.

B. I never said he is a caster killer. Please read before posting.
My first post was saying anything that hits a caster is meaningful. That went into weather or not a monk could deal enough to threaten a wizard, which apparently they cannot. The only thing I went into on a monk's SR was in a the focused branch of the item less monk being better off than the item less wizard. Having SR simply means a monk will make fewer saves. Explain how that's not true if you want.

Then explain to me how that means I said a monk is a caster killer.
Otherwise, stop shoving your words in my mouth and creating arguments that didn't exist until you made them.

C. I've been calling BS on this item less wizard the whole time while you run down this whole thing about a monk needing more items than anything else which some how says a wizard don't need items compared to every beatstick in the game (well, ability scores too, but we all knew that was was nocontest outside of of the lame hybrids wanting to be beatsticks). Explain how the monk requires more than everyone else. Explain how a wizard don't need any item.

D. If thinking the wizard needs more items than every class I listed in my last post is me being in a hole. Then pick me up some chinese food when you come back from yours.

So yeah. Take the time and explain me to your point. So far all I've gotten is mostly but crap. Hell the best point I've gotten out of you is a 4d10 unarmed damage example on the meaningful hit thing. And I don't think you can deal 4d10 to start with though the 30 points of damage is close enough so the point was made.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Alastar

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #101 on: February 02, 2009, 09:42:39 PM »
well, aside from a +5 intel book and a +6 headband of intellect, i kinda don't need anything else on my high level wizard, seriously, starting from level 13, i became the party bank, loaning money to the beatsticks, cause i couldN't find anything to do with it, my spells provided everything i needed.

and then again, those 2 are just for fuck's sake.

Dragonskin + greater mage armor= +11 to AC, just there, and that's without all other things like polymorph, alter self, mirror image, displacement, protection from evil, shield, that can all be very easily cast to send your Ac into the stratosphere, without a single GP of investment.  Also, if you wanna fork over 8k gold, +1 defending spiked gauntlets can net you another +5 to AC.

Rope Trick: Suddenly, you don't sleep out in the open, and that's just before you can eventually get mordenkainen's magnificient mansion, or magnificient brothel for the kinky minded ones ;)  And let's not even talk about genesis please... having your own plane can have it's perks.

Superior resistance: +6 resistance to all saves 1 hour/level, did i make a cloak of res useless?  Yep, i sure did!

Elemental body (air): anything not flying, amongs them a VoP monk, is made useless.  Anything relying on stun or death saves or ability drains or crits... heck, pretty much anything that's nasty, is made useless.  ZING!!

the point sunic is trying to make in his own arrogant, pompous, demeaning way is that wizard spells replace the need for most items, most of the time, the monk cannot do that, he has to sink his money in trying, and failing, to be effective.

My lips are not glued to sunic's ass, but when he's right I'd be a fool not to admit it.

A monk has to waste way more money than a wizard to have a chance at doing something, and even then....

A wizard has to be very creative to find a use for his money.


Straw_Man

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #102 on: February 02, 2009, 10:48:36 PM »

  How many spells do you use to buff your wizard daily? This is the ONE huge problem wizard boosters have. They have infinite spells. Contingent spells? Yup have that. Spells to make gear unnecessary? Yup cast those today. Spells to be GOD daily? YEah got those too. Spells to sleep safe at night? Never leave home without them. Spells in case someone's trying to kill you after a few encounters? Prepped and raring to go!

  Wizards are the most powerful class, why need to defend it to ludicrous points? Their powerful enough not to need the constant ego massage.
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Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

SorO_Lost

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #103 on: February 02, 2009, 10:52:50 PM »
Dragonskin sounds handy if it stacks, what book is it in?

Didn't know about superior resistance. I need a bigger cluebat than just the name of something that sounds more like a generic comment.

the point sunic is trying to make in his own arrogant, pompous, demeaning way is that wizard spells replace the need for most items, most of the time, the monk cannot do that, he has to sink his money in trying, and failing, to be effective.

My lips are not glued to sunic's ass, but when he's right I'd be a fool not to admit it.
He just does a very bad job of explaining what he means most of the time. Thanks for translating what he meant.

It makes sense now at least. Trading super useful spell slots for medium costing items and setting your self up to be killed by Dispel is what he was going for. Debating that one is best save for another time on another thread though.

Quote
They have infinite spells.
Sarcasm much?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Alastar

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #104 on: February 02, 2009, 11:01:11 PM »
well, with SOME money, you can fork over 6k and get a ring of counterspell to get rid of those annoying dispellers.

Chances are thought, you won't get dispelled, it won't happen every fight, so it's a much better tactic than anything else, as we all know.

Another thing is: those lower level spell slots tend to go unused when you reach mid levels.  Why cast solid fog when you can cast freezing fog, or acid fog, or incendiary cloud?  So you find a lot of good  level 1-3 spells that can buff you in various ways: Mage armor, Greater mage armor, Nerveskitter, shield, protection from evil, dragon skin, spider skin, mirror image, displacement, alter self, and other very good spells.  I'm not gonna use all the offensive power there is in there, so I might as well buff myself.  And use a level 7 slot for elemental body, cause it's awesome, a level 6 slot for superior resistance, cause it's even awesomer, and a level 8 slot for mind blank, cause hahahahahaha mind immunity makes me tingly.  Heck, at that point, I'd even go the distance and waste a level 9 slot for foresight, just cause i like acting in the surprise round.  And a level 8 one for moment of pescience, cause you never know.

That's the reason why most wizards are specialists, stack high intel, and are even sometimes focused specialist: Versatility.  It's what makes them kings, not their array of ultra powerful offense spells.

In a game where versatility is key, wizards are gods.

Literally

Midnight_v

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #105 on: February 02, 2009, 11:31:52 PM »
well, with SOME money, you can fork over 6k and get a ring of counterspell to get rid of those annoying dispellers.

Chances are thought, you won't get dispelled, it won't happen every fight, so it's a much better tactic than anything else, as we all know.

Another thing is: those lower level spell slots tend to go unused when you reach mid levels.  Why cast solid fog when you can cast freezing fog, or acid fog, or incendiary cloud?  So you find a lot of good  level 1-3 spells that can buff you in various ways: Mage armor, Greater mage armor, Nerveskitter, shield, protection from evil, dragon skin, spider skin, mirror image, displacement, alter self, and other very good spells.  I'm not gonna use all the offensive power there is in there, so I might as well buff myself.  And use a level 7 slot for elemental body, cause it's awesome, a level 6 slot for superior resistance, cause it's even awesomer, and a level 8 slot for mind blank, cause hahahahahaha mind immunity makes me tingly.  Heck, at that point, I'd even go the distance and waste a level 9 slot for foresight, just cause i like acting in the surprise round.  And a level 8 one for moment of pescience, cause you never know.

That's the reason why most wizards are specialists, stack high intel, and are even sometimes focused specialist: Versatility.  It's what makes them kings, not their array of ultra powerful offense spells.

In a game where versatility is key, wizards are gods.

Literally

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woodenbandman

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #106 on: February 02, 2009, 11:34:40 PM »
Just so we're clear, is there ANYTHING a beatstick can do to threaten a wizard?

I had a friend who thought that wizards weren't as strong as ToB, so he challenged me to a duel, level 15, no items. I haven't actually fought him yet, but here's sort of how it plays out:

If he's wearing light armor, he's likely a swordsage, and thus theoretically has teleportation maneuvers. Win initiative with Moment of Prescience (which I'm sure he'd disapprove of, because using your class features is soooo unfair), then dimensional anchor and quickened web.

If he's wearing heavy armor, then just use quickened web followed by maximized cloudkill.

Next round, throw out a forcecage. He can't go anywhere. dispel the web.

Now you just cast invisibility. He's taking huge CON damage for a few rounds.

Then hit him with a save or die effect. Then polymorph into something big and kill his ass. And use Limited Wish to imitate divine power/righteous might.

With this handy guide, you've just won without using dice. At all. He will literally never win initiative, and you can counter anything he throws. This is a core generalist human wizard 15, by the way, no gear. I was planning on saying after the fight, "You mean I was supposed to actually build a character, rather than just pick spells?" I can't even imagine what'd happen if I pulled a Shadowcraft Mage.

juton

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #107 on: February 03, 2009, 12:43:37 AM »
Just so we're clear, is there ANYTHING a beatstick can do to threaten a wizard?

Yes and no.

The ToB classes can be very strong, at levels 1-6 they might even have a shot of taking a Wizard one on one. Once you start getting 4th level spells and up melee types become well and truly screwed. I know Wizards get fly as a 3rd level spell but they just get so many ways to completely screw a beatstick with 4th level spells it's not worth listing them.

If a beatstick wants to do anything to a Wizard he's going to have to use some of the Wizard's tricks himself. Before ToB that meant cranking UMD and hoping whoever was running the Wizard had made some mistake. ToB gives meleers some options, and they can hold there own against unoptomized casters.

At higher levels DnD can become a game of magical rock-paper-scissors, Tier 2 classes can pick any two but Wizards, smart Clerics and smart Druids can get everything.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #108 on: February 03, 2009, 01:57:21 AM »
Just so we're clear, is there ANYTHING a beatstick can do to threaten a wizard?
Of course. So in the matching tradition seen in other threads with a role reversal...

If he's wearing light armor, he's likely a swordsage, and thus theoretically has teleportation maneuvers. Win initiative with Moment of Prescience (which I'm sure he'd disapprove of, because using your class features is soooo unfair), then dimensional anchor and quickened web.
So you do have some items. I'll go with assuming you meant no magical items.

Moment of Prescience works on opposed ability checks. Initiative is just an ability check and is not considered an opposed check. Regardless, Uncanny Dodge only takes a two level dip into warblade or barbarian and would allow them to use counters during your go. I would flat out say if he knows anything about what he is facing he has it. So with that in mind don't use anything save based on him. Also beware of him just using Sudden Leap to move out of your area effects. He could have his full move speed to get close and use a strike on you. Strikes btw are worse than full attacks. I hope you went for the unfair 100 space between you and him.

In this area your lucky magical items are not allowed though. Else you probably would miss with the anchor and leave your self open to a Battle Jump combo and you would be a smear on the floor before it's even his turn. Oh, and you won't have to worry about a rod of absorption limiting your spell choice.

Next round, throw out a forcecage. He can't go anywhere. dispel the web.
If he took warblade levels he IHSes and your cloudkill effect is gone. Also he made his save so you only dealt 2 con damage. You would have time to sit there and build traps around him. But if he has IHS then this is worse than round one since now your down a few of your highest spells and he has a ready action.

Now you just cast invisibility. He's taking huge CON damage for a few rounds.
And hope he don't have Hunter's Sense and find you anyway?
Plus I'd personally buy the 3k or so for permanent See Invisible cast on me if I were him. You should plan for that too.

Then hit him with a save or die effect. Then polymorph into something big and kill his ass. And use Limited Wish to imitate divine power/righteous might.
ToBers are not fighters, you cannot insult them by becoming a melee monster to attack them. They will mop the floor with your bodily remains. Stick to spellcasting and do not engage them in melee range ever.

Breaking tradition here...
My suggestion is to Anchor him, quicken ddoor away assuming the area is big enough, then cast a barred version of force cage on him next round. His best option is to use a nonmagical bow and you can just prepare Protection from Arrows. Blast away or try to summon monsters in the cage and see how many he kills before you hit him with something anyway. The only things I can think of that would prevent that require magical items so it should work...
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Straw_Man

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #109 on: February 03, 2009, 02:15:12 AM »

In a game where versatility is key, wizards are gods.

Literally


  Agreed. But I'm quite tired of spell X quoted as a defense to Y with no reference to a real build. It's too easy to play the hypothetical I have spell X prepared no matter what Y is. I 've never seen a working real wizard build be prepared for everything; just most anything that could happen. Is it so hard to admit that a martial type could have a chance against a Wiz thats had several CR equivalent encounters. This much denial for that simple fact makes me wonder who got beat as a child.

  And yes SorO, thats sarcasm from me, but something thats taken for granted by CO Wizard boosters.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #110 on: February 03, 2009, 02:33:53 AM »
  Agreed. But I'm quite tired of spell X quoted as a defense to Y with no reference to a real build. It's too easy to play the hypothetical I have spell X prepared no matter what Y is. I 've never seen a working real wizard build be prepared for everything; just most anything that could happen. Is it so hard to admit that a martial type could have a chance against a Wiz thats had several CR equivalent encounters. This much denial for that simple fact makes me wonder who got beat as a child.

  And yes SorO, thats sarcasm from me, but something thats taken for granted by CO Wizard boosters.

A real wizard is not prepared for everything - but if they are prepared to take on a equal-CR encounter solo, they are pretty much prepared to take on anything reasonable. And yes, a wizard can lose if 3/4 of their spell slots are gone and they are down on HP and consumables. But what about the martial type's resources? His HP? His x/day items? At the worst, the Wizard should always have a way to run.

Very rarely do you prepare Teleport. But you would be a damn fool not to have a scroll of it.

Emy

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #111 on: February 03, 2009, 02:58:37 AM »
Regardless, Uncanny Dodge only takes a two level dip into warblade or barbarian and would allow them to use counters during your go.

How so?

As far as I know, uncanny dodge lets you retain your dex to AC while flat-footed. Not use immediate actions while flat-footed.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #112 on: February 03, 2009, 03:11:19 AM »
Oooh, my bad.

Stance of Alacrity fixes that by removing the action required.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 03:15:32 AM by SorO_Lost »
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #113 on: February 03, 2009, 03:29:12 AM »
If wizards use adequate divination, they *will* have the right spells prepared.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #114 on: February 03, 2009, 03:59:51 AM »
If wizards use adequate divination, they *will* have the right spells prepared.
How?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Negative Zero

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #115 on: February 03, 2009, 04:08:47 AM »
More specifically, what divinations does an average wizard use on an average day that will prepare them for this?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #116 on: February 03, 2009, 04:25:15 AM »
Let's say a wizard has, oh, a selection of thirty possible spells he can choose from to prepare in his higher level slots.  

He writes them on a numbered list.

He casts Contact Other Plane.  Having at least a +6 bonus to int by now, he can take 10 on the ability check and always succeed in contacting a Greater Deity on an Outer Plane.  88% of the time, he gets the correct one-word answer to any question he asks.  At CL 10, you can ask five questions per casting.

Question 1 "what is the number of the spell on this list that will be most beneficial for me to prepare in the next week?"
Question 2 "what is the number of the spell on this list that is the second most beneficial for me to prepare in the next week?"
Question 3 "what is the number of the spell on this list that is the third most beneficial for me to prepare in the next week?"
Question 4 "what is the number of the spell on this list that is the fourth most beneficial for me to prepare in the next week?"
Question 5 "what is the number of the spell on this list that is the fifth most beneficial for me to prepare in the next week?"

Now, as there's no material or XP component, you can spam this spell as much as you want.  Two castings (asking the same questions) will give you a 98.5% chance of getting the right answer at least once, and less than a (10%/29)^2 = 0.0012% chance of getting the same wrong answer twice.  

You could ask different questions to get similar results - the method I had was just a little easier.  Breaking it down by spell level might be a good idea, but the principle is sound.

Other questions might, for instance, ask "What type of creatures, from the following list: {Abberation, construct, dragon, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, outsider, plant, undead, vermin} will, in the next week, pose the greatest danger to me?"

Or if you're going to be facing enemies immune to mind effecting spells, or energy drain, or fire, or whatever.  The sky's the limit.


As a fifth level spell, using multiple contact other planes isn't going to cut into a wiz20's spell assortment at all.  At higher levels, he's going to say "in the next 48 hours", or "in the next day", and have the answer for his top 10 spells.  Rock on!

So, practically speaking, the high level wizard *will* always have the right spells prepared.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 04:33:11 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #117 on: February 03, 2009, 04:37:23 AM »
contacting a Greater Deity on an Outer Plane.
Deities can predict the future? If not, it's just their best choice guess based on what tasks they want you to do for them.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #118 on: February 03, 2009, 04:44:15 AM »
A) Yes they can

B) Says "You get a true, one-word answer" RAW.   If you don't want the spell to work like that, I suggest you state your house rules before you begin discussion.  Otherwise people end up confused.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #119 on: February 03, 2009, 04:52:48 AM »
A) Yes they can[citation needed]

B) Says "You get a true, one-word answer" RAW[1].   If you don't want the spell to work like that, I suggest you state your house rules before you begin discussion.  Otherwise people end up confused.
[1]True Answer: You get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.

All I have to say is check your sources...
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 05:04:30 AM by SorO_Lost »
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
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