Author Topic: Binder Build  (Read 3536 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

joejoejoe

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 13
Binder Build
« on: January 29, 2009, 03:10:04 AM »
Hi There! First Post.
My Party is getting a Make over from 7 to 4 members + cohort
We have a Uldra Druid, Elf Archer Cleric, Human Warlock. We are all level 6 and I want to play a Binder.
The DM said sure, but I need to take Leadership and have a rouge/ Binder Cohort.
I can't use Psionics, tome of Battle, and LA Races, and Uber feats (Leap Attack, and others)
I want to build a combat oriented Binder, but not charging focused.
We use 32 point buy system no stat can be below 8 or above 18 AFTER Racial Adjustments.
Thanks for the help!

Emy

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2009, 04:00:00 AM »
Hi There! First Post.
My Party is getting a Make over from 7 to 4 members + cohort
We have a Uldra Druid, Elf Archer Cleric, Human Warlock. We are all level 6 and I want to play a Binder.
The DM said sure, but I need to take Leadership and have a rouge/ Binder Cohort.
I can't use Psionics, tome of Battle, and LA Races, and Uber feats (Leap Attack, and others)
I want to build a combat oriented Binder, but not charging focused.
We use 32 point buy system no stat can be below 8 or above 18 AFTER Racial Adjustments.
Thanks for the help!

Hi!

Hmm...

I can't use Psionics, tome of Battle, and LA Races, and Uber feats (Leap Attack, and others)

What qualifies as "an uber feat"? Anything good? Anything that increases abilities relating to your focus? I'd certainly call Leadership the leader in "uberness", but you're actually being forced to take it.

Definitely take Improved Binding (unless that's too good :rollseyes).

That aside, Binders have a ton of options based on which vestiges you bind, so "combat oriented, but not charging focused" basically eliminates only Diplomancy and charging.

So...

take EWP (Spiked Chain), Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. Trip people.

bind Focalor, blast things. (Focalor is the blasty one, right?)

dip binder, bind Naberius, combo with something that is good but gives you ability damage (Hellfire warlock?)

any number of other things.

Oh, this handbook might help, if you're interested in binders.

jameswilliamogle

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1279
    • Email
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2009, 12:34:56 PM »
Hrm, not charging focused, but other combat focused...

To be honest, you can just rely on vestige abilities and not worry about the feat setup.  Still, you could do some stuff feat-wise...

How do you want to melee? 
1) Do you want to focus on natural attacks or do you want to focus on weapon attacks? 
2) Do you want to tank or do you want to be a light skirmisher?

These are pretty important questions to answer.  Your party doesn't have a "dedicated" tank right now.

Check w/ your DM to see if vestige-granted feats count for prequalification for other feats.  If no, you can forgo a ton of options.  If yes, you're more powerful, but it'll take longer.

I like using Improved Disarm w/ a bunch of the TWF feats using Ronove for IUS and Zagan for Imp. Grapple...  Improved Trip fits nicely in there too.  Basically, debuffs opponents (ridiculously good against humanoid opponents, not so good against others).  If I couldn't take Shocktrooper et al I'd probably go this route.

I also like using Andras for the smite and imp crit.  Lays down the schmack.  This might change what you focus on as well.  Combines very well with Paimon.  Also could combine well with the TWF tree (particularly w/ Imp Crit on all your natural attacks).

So, you've got options.

You only have 2 feats (3 if human) available to you, since you need Leadership at 6 and Improved Binding at 4 as the Binder bonus feat.  This could be Combat Experties and Improved Disarm, Combat Expertese and Deadly Defense, Power Attack and Weapon Focus, TWF and Weapon Focus, etc.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 12:43:55 PM by jameswilliamogle »

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2009, 01:04:03 PM »
Quote
How do you want to melee?
1) Do you want to focus on natural attacks or do you want to focus on weapon attacks?
2) Do you want to tank or do you want to be a light skirmisher?

I'd like to point out that the REALLY good natural attacks Binders can get don't come until reasonably late in the game (as soon as you can bind Ipos) and Aym is a fairly subpar vestige as far as attacking goes (as I recall, Aym is the one that gives you monk-y fists).

Andras, as mentioned, is nice, but he can be very situational. Unless you're using a weapon with a good crit range, his free smite once every 5 turns still leaves you open for 4 turns. At lower levels, you need to focus on vestiges you can rely on all day long or with at-will abilities that are reasonably reliable (Malphus' Sudden Strike, for example). The real fun doesn't start until level 8, when you can bind two vestiges at once, and then you can start going to town.

Also (and I can't stress this enough), DO NOT forget to pick up Ignore Special Requirements, and if possible, Expel Vestige. Sure a phylactery does the same for you as far as Expel Vestige goes, but at this point you won't be able to afford one. Besides, there is NO worst feeling than going into a dungeon with a vestige and finding out it's useless where you are.

Ah, yes, use your Pact Augmentations wisely. They can make or break your life, specially at lower levels. And remember that just because +2 to initiative is good it shouldn't always be your pick. Init is useless if you don't have something good to do with it.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


jameswilliamogle

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1279
    • Email
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2009, 01:18:10 PM »
Ronove gives you IUS as a monk.

Amon gives you a Ram attack and fiery breath and darkvision.

Andras gives imp crit, a warhorse, smite, ability to make enemies attack each other

Malphus is great for scouting; you've got a cohort for that though.

Ignore Special Requirements can be delayed, and Expel Vestige is nice but you don't have the feats to spare.  I don't recomend either right now.

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2009, 04:02:14 PM »
Ronove gives you IUS as a monk.

Amon gives you a Ram attack and fiery breath and darkvision.

Andras gives imp crit, a warhorse, smite, ability to make enemies attack each other

Malphus is great for scouting; you've got a cohort for that though.

Ignore Special Requirements can be delayed, and Expel Vestige is nice but you don't have the feats to spare.  I don't recomend either right now.

I'd say Expel Vestige can be delayed instead. Ignore Special Requirements becomes a necessity very early, specially if you expect to go into dungeons often. Do not expect to encounter optimal conditions for binding all the time.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


joejoejoe

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 13
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2009, 04:23:10 PM »
Wow! those are some responses!
Now I apologize for my lack of clarification of the term "Uber" and what falls under it.
Feats that increase my damage up high and don't have lots of pre reqs(Leap Attack is uber, tactical feats aren't, I can't think of anymore feats of the top of my head :banghead)

The ruling on feats from my DM is that  I have access to ALL the feats from my Vestiges, but I can't use feats if I don't have the vestige with the pre req feats, I can't use the feat.

I believe that a tank is necessary for my party not something like an anima mage or anything like that, and from what other people say Knight of Sacred Seal is Practically Mandatory, what would be a good vestige, I was thinking Chupoclops, but is it worth the wait?
We also have no Diplomacy, so I figured maybe a 1 level dip into Marshal.
Posistives- Diplomacy up the wazoo and TAKES 10, at level 6 my Vestige Selection doesn't drop Martial and Heavy Proficiency for Tanking.
negatives- No BAB, which slows down KOSS entry, Feats, Binding Progression declines.
I'm either going human(Skills & Feat)
Dragonborn Spell Scale (+Cha -Dex &Wings or Breath)
Lvl 1 Ignore Special Requirements
Bonus Umm...
Lvl 3 Weapon Focus (Scimitar?)
Binder Imp Binding
Lvl6 Leadership


I think My Cohort will human scout 1/binder3 (in that order)
Lvl 1 Umm
Bonus Able Learner
Lvl 3 Imp Binding

What about Items?
this is a home campaign so we do have a little more cash then we should.
Effectivly my old character leaves and I get gear I can use of about the same value.
My Dude had Gondish Full Plate  (AC 8 Max Dex 2 Armor Check 3) with +2 enhancement.
+1 Heavy Mace
Wand of Magic Missle (He had magic domain)

The rouge had..
+1 Rapier
+1 Chainshirt
Ring of Float
Gloves of Storing(Holds a weapon in the glove, is that what there called?)

We also hadve 3 unclaimed items
a ring of Endure elements&Major Image(1 Ring)
Cloak of Charisma +2
Periapet of Health +2
But we had to spend 5000 on resurrecting the archer cleric
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 05:05:45 PM by joejoejoe »

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2009, 05:12:56 PM »
Wow! those are some responses!
Now I apologize for my lack of clarification of the term "Uber" and what falls under it.
Feats that increase my damage up high and don't have lots of pre reqs(Leap Attack is uber, tactical feats aren't, I can't think of anymore feats of the top of my head :banghead)

The ruling on feats from my DM is that  I have access to ALL the feats from my Vestiges, but I can't use feats if I don't have the vestige with the pre req feats, I can't use the feat.

I believe that a tank is necessary for my party not something like an anima mage or anything like that, and from what other people say Knight of Sacred Seal is Practically Mandatory, what would be a good vestige, I was thinking Chupoclops, but is it worth the wait?
We also have no Diplomacy, so I figured maybe a 1 level dip into Marshal.
Posistives- Diplomacy up the wazoo and TAKES 10, at level 6 my Vestige Selection doesn't drop Martial and Heavy Proficiency for Tanking.
negatives- No BAB, which slows down KOSS entry, Feats, Binding Progression declines.
I'm either going human(Skills & Feat)
Dragonborn Spell Scale (+Cha -Dex &Wings or Breath)
Lvl 1 Ignore Special Requirements
Bonus Umm...
Lvl 3 Weapon Focus (Scimitar?)
Binder Imp Binding
Lvl6 Leadership


I think My Cohort will human scout 1/binder3 (in that order)
Lvl 1 Umm
Bonus Able Learner
Lvl 3 Imp Binding

What about Items?
this is a home campaign so we do have a little more cash then we should.
Effectivly my old character leaves and I get gear I can use of about the same value.
My Dude had Gondish Full Plate  (AC 8 Max Dex 2 Armor Check 3) with +2 enhancement.
+1 Heavy Mace
Wand of Magic Missle (He had magic domain)

The rouge had..
+1 Rapier
+1 Chainshirt
Ring of Float
Gloves of Storing(Holds a weapon in the glove, is that what there called?)

We also hadve 3 unclaimed items
a ring of Endure elements&Major Image(1 Ring)
Cloak of Charisma +2
Periapet of Health +2
But we had to spend 5000 on resurrecting the archer cleric

Wow, your make-up sure had sweet equipment for something so lowly!

Now, then. Little question: how are you getting WF: Scimitar without proficiency?
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


joejoejoe

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 13
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2009, 05:35:27 PM »
Well If I did take the level of Marshall then I would have martial prof yes?
But if I do go full binder (Which is probably going on) I would go with Morning star.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 06:14:34 PM by joejoejoe »

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2009, 06:43:41 PM »
Well If I did take the level of Marshall then I would have martial prof yes?
But if I do go full binder (Which is probably going on) I would go with Morning star.


If you go with Marshal, consider talking to your DM about fractional BAB rules.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


joejoejoe

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 13
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2009, 08:06:22 PM »
Now here's Another Option I forgot to add.
Drop Leadership.
Take Scout 1 with human and able learner.
This does slow down progression, but I wont have to worry about my cohort Dieing, and I go Paimon, and be a high dex skirmisher, this does allow me to take weapon focus at 6th and enter KOSS(Paimon) at 8th level

Another option is to keep Leadership and get a Tanking Kobold, who can then use focolar and shoot people with his lightning bolt :smirk

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2009, 08:15:03 PM »
Now here's Another Option I forgot to add.
Drop Leadership.
Take Scout 1 with human and able learner.
This does slow down progression, but I wont have to worry about my cohort Dieing, and I go Paimon, and be a high dex skirmisher, this does allow me to take weapon focus at 6th and enter KOSS(Paimon) at 8th level

Another option is to keep Leadership and get a Tanking Kobold, who can then use focolar and shoot people with his lightning bolt :smirk

His DM forced him to take Leadership, so he can't drop it.

And kobolds are lousy tanks. Good sorcerers, but lousy tanks.

Saaaaaay... maybe your cohort can be an Anima Mage?  :D
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


joejoejoe

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 13
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2009, 08:33:49 PM »
yes, yes he can.
DM said the party needed a rouge, and if I was to be a binder, DM made it a pre-req to take leadership,(I guess he was assuming I could go full binder, and still have a rougish type) didn't state it had to be a rouge :D
So by taking scout, I can Skirmish, Deadly Dance(Complete Scoundrel) with combat expertise, then dance of death via Paimon.
With this high AC (Mith Chainshirt, Starts with 16 Dex, Paimon +4 Dex, MWK Buckler, Combat Expertise trade off 2 min) that's like an AC 22 and I could pact Augment it as well to 24 :D
And... We don't have a Wizard/ Sorcerer, so the cohort could fill in that position, but we don't have a fighter, whats more important?
No Loredrake kobold uber sorcerer either.
So Fighter type Vs Anima Mage
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 08:36:16 PM by joejoejoe »

joejoejoe

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 13
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2009, 08:37:39 PM »
Just called DM...
With the scout build stated above I don't need Leadership, but I Can have it, he would prefer it with a fighter type and not with the caster cohort, but it's not mandatory to do so
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 08:42:20 PM by joejoejoe »

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2009, 10:06:40 PM »
Quote
So Fighter type Vs Anima Mage

You NEED to ask?

Just consider that your cohort will have Binding on top of spellcasting. He's actually an even bigger threat than you.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


joejoejoe

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 13
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2009, 10:10:44 PM »
really? :smirk
please elaborate.  what spells?
Wizard or sorceror or warmage?
I think I know feats
Strongheart Halfling.
1 Extend Spell
Bonus Precocious spell caster
3 Imp Binding
Those are the right feats yes?
What Vestige?

Chemus

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 751
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2009, 10:19:44 PM »
needless post. sorry. I'll try to come up with something pithy.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 10:22:13 PM by Chemus »
*waves hand* This is not the sig you're looking for...
The freely downloadable and searchable 3.5 SRD I prefer (Web)
Camlen, Enniwey

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2009, 11:03:50 PM »
Check out Sheredak in my signature for an example of what a shadowcraft mage looks like. Look in his abilities. He has a cumulative 75% miss chance, all the damn time. He can cast Mirror Image, and create 8 copies of himself, each with the same miss chance, and then... he's a spellcaster on top of all that shit.

He's by no means fully optimized. He can spontaneously cast any spell from the Conjuration and Evocation schools of any level he can prepare a spell of, with his Shadowcraft Mage trick, he gets 2 free persistent spells per day (soon to be free), and he gets nifty stuff like bonuses to initiative and, of course, all the bindery goodness, like the ability to pick up immunity to cold, electricity, and get healed by negative energy all in one vestige!

So yeah, an Anima Mage is a little bit stronger than a binder.

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2009, 08:53:04 AM »
Check out Sheredak in my signature for an example of what a shadowcraft mage looks like. Look in his abilities. He has a cumulative 75% miss chance, all the damn time. He can cast Mirror Image, and create 8 copies of himself, each with the same miss chance, and then... he's a spellcaster on top of all that shit.

He's by no means fully optimized. He can spontaneously cast any spell from the Conjuration and Evocation schools of any level he can prepare a spell of, with his Shadowcraft Mage trick, he gets 2 free persistent spells per day (soon to be free), and he gets nifty stuff like bonuses to initiative and, of course, all the bindery goodness, like the ability to pick up immunity to cold, electricity, and get healed by negative energy all in one vestige!

So yeah, an Anima Mage is a little bit stronger than a binder.

And it gets even better later.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Binder Build
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2009, 03:06:45 PM »
Oh I haven't even TOUCHED the divine variant with DMM heighten for Shadow Miracles at level 10.