Author Topic: Help with a Dispell-monkey  (Read 2474 times)

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Operation Shoestring

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Help with a Dispell-monkey
« on: January 28, 2009, 06:08:26 PM »
Current Build

LG Azurin

Cloistered Cleric 1/Focused Abjurer3/Master Specialist10/Abjurant Champion5/Archmage1

Domains: Inquisition, Pride

Feats:
D) Knowledge Devotion
A) Spell Focus: Abjuration
1) Practiced Spellcaster (cleric)
3) Divine Defiance
6) Arcane Mastery
9) MWP: Longbow
12) Combat Casting
15) Spell Focus: (Divination?)
18) Soultouched Spellcasting

With flaws I could re-arrange this for a better mix, but i wanted to do this without flaws.

I was playing around with this counter-spelling build after reading the Dispell/counterspell hadnbook, and I figured that incorporating AbjChamp for the ability to quicken Shield and Suppress Magic was a good idea (plus, the bonus to AC).  But its it worth it to go to level 5 for the ability to quicken third level spells ? (martial arcanist is useless in general) By the time you get there in a non-gish build , Dispell Magic has been replaced by Greater Dispell, and while Magic circle and Prot f. energy are nice, there's no huge need to quicken them.  Also, since I was planning on using Divine Defiance and possibly the Deflect line of spells, it's not like I'd have swift actions to throw around, I'd be using them for immediate actions to counterspell or AC-boost, meaning the the swift spell would come into play only on turn 1 or turns where the enemy is not casting or attacking me.

Dumping a level or two of AbjChamp would let me take more Archmage or dip Paragnostic Apostle (For +1 Dispell/Penentrate or +2 AC).

For that matter, I'm not sure the last few levels of Master Specialist are worth more than PgA levels.  Personal -> touch is nice, but without metamagic the options for that are less than brilliant.

Also, I picked Pride because it seemed to fit well with the 7th level MS ability.  However, I'm not sure a wizard's saves are good enough.  Even if I trip the combo by casting Prot. from Magic at the start of the battle, the Fort and Ref saves may not be high enough.

pfooti

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Re: Help with a Dispell-monkey
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2009, 06:40:39 PM »
You can get the Inquisition domain power as a domain granted power using the alternate class feature from complete champion, p 52. Other than that, finding a way to get reactive counterspell is probably a good idea if you want to actually counterspell. If you're just dispelling, it looks okay, although I don't see the purpose to Azurin - you have multiclassing issues as an Azurin.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Help with a Dispell-monkey
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2009, 07:08:39 PM »
i would take the 5th lvl of AB. Champ. and apply it to your cleric spell casting if possible, i'm afb so i don't recall if you can do it or not.

if possible then you could try to find a way to combine your caster level, i did something similar with Ab. Champ. and master Spellthief.
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Eldariel

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Re: Help with a Dispell-monkey
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2009, 08:10:42 PM »
Abjurant Champion is by no means worth it. Even just Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is better there; you at least get the awesome Kaleidoscopic Doom on 7. The feats AC requires to qualify are way more valuable than the returns; the class really does nothing a simple Rod of Lesser Quicken wouldn't, and that item is not worth 5 class levels. Quickening Dispel Magic is nice 'n' all, but by the time you get it, you're probably moving onto Greater anyways...

Anyways, if Initiate feels wrong for you, more Archmage-levels seems good. Archmage's Mastery of Shaping, Arcane Reach (may actually be worth taking twice for you), Spell Power, SLAs and Mastery of Counterspelling (obviously) are all awesome for you; Mastery of Shaping works with your Dispels and your AMFs, Arcane Reach goes awesome with your level 10 Master Specialist-ability (cast no-save anchored AMFs at people within 30' with just a touch), Spell Power improves your dispelling, getting any form of Dispel as SLA just plain kicks ass, Mastery of Counterspelling should be fairly obvious and you can burn your Focused Specialist-slots for those abilities instead of normal slots. Oh, and they go fine with much of your Abjuration-spells too. Overall, Archmage seems to pack a can of wallop for you. Also, getting the 5 levels of Wizard for Spontaneous Divination (further enhancing your Focused Specialist-slots and helping you target your Dispelling) could rock, or alternatively getting the "Spontaneous Dispelling" ACF from Unearthed Arcana (you'd need to talk with your DM to get the ability to use the Greater Dispel automatically too from just 5 levels in Wizard thanks to your casting being high enough for it or it's not worth it though).


Soo:
CC 1/FA 3/MS 10/AM 4/FA 2 (or AM 5/Mindbender 1 or something; Mindsight never hurts and actually removes much of the need for a portition of Spontaneous Divination)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 08:17:49 PM by Eldariel »

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Re: Help with a Dispell-monkey
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2009, 10:15:56 PM »
You can get the Inquisition domain power as a domain granted power using the alternate class feature from complete champion, p 52. Other than that, finding a way to get reactive counterspell is probably a good idea if you want to actually counterspell. If you're just dispelling, it looks okay, although I don't see the purpose to Azurin - you have multiclassing issues as an Azurin.

Divine defiance is reactive counterspelling.  Azurin enables Soultouched Spellcasting, and the cleric sub level for it is actually pretty good.. being able to pop an extra essentia on demand can actually be useful.  Most people I know don't use MC penalties anymore.

Archangel Arcanis, you suggestion isn''t possible.  Martial Arcanist speciefies a class you have added spellcasting to with AbjC  I already have Prac. SC on cleric anyway.

I was orginally going to save a feat on AbjChamp by getting MWP from the War domain, but I kinda wanted Pride... anyone know a good way to boost a wizard's Ref/fort saves so that Prot. f. Magic + MS 7 ability + Pride actually works?

Iot7FV is pretty cool, but it's a different path than i was going with this build.  CC1/FA3/MS7/Iot7FV7/AM2 works too, though.

Good point with the Lesser Rod of Quicken over AbjC.  Overall, the build probably is better without it.  Lose the bonus to AC and the nerfs the ability to negate attacks with Deflect, but then again those eat valuable actions.

Taking 3 levels of Paragnostic Apostle lets me pop 2 essentia using the Azurin sub level, which actually could be useful (Plus, LORE).  Then again Spont. Div would be quite worthwhile as well...

Cloistered Cleric 1/Focused Abjurer3/Master Specialist10/Archmage3/Abjurer+2/Paragnostic Apostle1

Domains: Inquisition, Pride

Feats:
D) Knowledge Devotion
F) Spell Focus: Abjuration
A) Soultouched Spellcasting
1) Practiced Spellcaster (cleric)
3) Divine Defiance
6) Arcane Mastery
9) Metamagic?
12) Spell Focus: (Divination?)
15) Chain spell
18) Insightful Divination (?)

W5) Spont. Div
AM: Mastery of Counterspelling, Mastery of Shaping, Arcane Reach

Bonus to Dispel checks:  +4 Inq, +5 MS, +2 SS, +1 KIP = 12.  Hmn, with that much bonus, I might be able to get away with dispelling with a regular DisMag instead of the greater variant even at higher levels.

Insightful Div. gives a saves boost that synergizes well.  Hmn, maybe use the martial wizard ACF for Imp. Init for more synergy?

I gave up and used a flaw to squeeze in CHAIN... Chaining dispels is a major offensive option

Any suggestions on a good metamagic to qualify for CHAIN?

Eldariel

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Re: Help with a Dispell-monkey
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2009, 03:34:38 AM »
Uhh, Quicken Spell sounds fairly good for the qualifications. I mean, kinda foolish for a high-level Wizard not to have it. Extend Spell is the other obvious one. Sculpt Spell could be fun with your Dispels (it should work fine with the area version of the spell) and has other nice implications too (like Sculpted Glitterdusts and Color Sprays early on, Webs and Solid Fogs later, etc.). Still, high-level Wizard just plain shouldn't be without Quicken Spell.

EDIT: Wouldn't Illumian be better than Azurin, btw? Krau-sigil increases your CL by 2 on level 2 for all spells and spell-likes so effectively it makes your Cleric CL 3 without Practiced spellcaster while also maxing your Wizard CL. And that's without going into the second sigil; Naen and Vaul would both be handy (and Naenkrau and Vaulkrau combinations both offer decent benefits). But the real benefit is qualifying for Divine Defiance without Practiced Spellcaster (at least that's how it should work; the exact wording speaks of "spells and spell-likes" while Divine Defiance requires Divine Caster Level, but if your Caster Level for Divine Spells is 3...) and maintaining full Wizard CL too.

Then again, Soulbound Spellcasting is awesome... Tough decision either way; Vaulkrau Illumian in particular looks like a perfect fit though, boosting your saves and CL (effectively the feat you "gain" by not having to pick Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric is spent into not having a bonus feat though, so meh).


As for Wizard's saves, just having that one Cleric-level for 2 points of Fort, decent Con and casting the best Resistance-spell you know daily is a good starting point. I recall something granted Insight-bonus into Fort-saves, but I can't say for sure.

EDIT#2: Spellcaster's Bane-spell is a swift action to cast and gives you a +2 Insight bonus to dispelling which doesn't stack with Soultouched Spellcasting, making the feat pretty wasted ('cause spells are obviously a less valuable resource than feats). I'd say you should go with Illumian. Also, Paragnostic Apostle's bonus is Insight. Just pick more Archmage; SLA and Spell Power at least are still worth it.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 04:22:42 AM by Eldariel »

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Help with a Dispell-monkey
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2009, 06:40:26 AM »
Uhh, Quicken Spell sounds fairly good for the qualifications. I mean, kinda foolish for a high-level Wizard not to have it. Extend Spell is the other obvious one. Sculpt Spell could be fun with your Dispels (it should work fine with the area version of the spell) and has other nice implications too (like Sculpted Glitterdusts and Color Sprays early on, Webs and Solid Fogs later, etc.). Still, high-level Wizard just plain shouldn't be without Quicken Spell.

Like Chain, Quicken also requires you to already have a metamagic feat, iirc.  If i am mistaken, AWESOME.

EDIT: Wouldn't Illumian be better than Azurin, btw? Krau-sigil increases your CL by 2 on level 2 for all spells and spell-likes so effectively it makes your Cleric CL 3 without Practiced spellcaster while also maxing your Wizard CL. And that's without going into the second sigil; Naen and Vaul would both be handy (and Naenkrau and Vaulkrau combinations both offer decent benefits). But the real benefit is qualifying for Divine Defiance without Practiced Spellcaster (at least that's how it should work; the exact wording speaks of "spells and spell-likes" while Divine Defiance requires Divine Caster Level, but if your Caster Level for Divine Spells is 3...) and maintaining full Wizard CL too.

Then again, Soulbound Spellcasting is awesome... Tough decision either way; Vaulkrau Illumian in particular looks like a perfect fit though, boosting your saves and CL (effectively the feat you "gain" by not having to pick Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric is spent into not having a bonus feat though, so meh).

You're kinda right about that.  I never really did much with illuminiam so i never considered that option.

As for Wizard's saves, just having that one Cleric-level for 2 points of Fort, decent Con and casting the best Resistance-spell you know daily is a good starting point. I recall something granted Insight-bonus into Fort-saves, but I can't say for sure.

CC doesn't get the fort boost.  extra skillpoints and knowledge devotion make up for that, though.  The plan was to use PF/Magic + Insightful Div for the saves boost, and combine with MS7 and Pride DGP for very good ability to negate enemy spells.

EDIT#2: Spellcaster's Bane-spell is a swift action to cast and gives you a +2 Insight bonus to dispelling which doesn't stack with Soultouched Spellcasting, making the feat pretty wasted ('cause spells are obviously a less valuable resource than feats). I'd say you should go with Illumian. Also, Paragnostic Apostle's bonus is Insight. Just pick more Archmage; SLA and Spell Power at least are still worth it.

Spellcaster's bane is of relatively little use... I need my Swift actions free to Immediate counterspells/deflect

Point about PgA.  I hadn't paid enough attention to bonus types.

Eldariel

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Re: Help with a Dispell-monkey
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2009, 10:04:11 AM »
Actually, Cloistered Cleric's saves are unaltered. The only differences are BAB, HD, armor proficiencies, skillpoints, the domain, Lore and spells. And yea, Spellcaster's Bane won't always be usable, but if you go first, you've got an extra swift action before you go about countering anything, one that's lost unless you cast something. Of course, you could use it offensively too. And no, Quicken Spell does not have prerequisites. None of the core Metamagic feats do.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 10:06:27 AM by Eldariel »

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Help with a Dispell-monkey
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2009, 07:32:23 AM »
Oddly enough, I believe I managed (let me know if there are any holes in my beautiful design people) to make a insta-countering mage build through crazy amounts of Turn uses and using cross campaign feats. He doesn't need to ready and action, beat the caster check, or have a dispel magic prepared. If he really wanted he could cut down on the buffs and make sure all spellcasters simply can't cast their spells so long as they are in range. This does NOT dispel existing spells but does prevent your buffs from being dispelled. This is the other use for dispel magic; countering. It is explained in my CoDzilla build in the link in my sig.
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