Author Topic: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage  (Read 5089 times)

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fun_at_funerals

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I need people's opinions and suggestions concerning the most optimized level progression route for dual casting Shadowcraft mage build I'm designing.

My biggest consideration here is feat allowance and graining access to Signature Spell: Silent Illusion as well as a trick to ULTIMATE POWER I'm trying to verify. Please share your thoughts on the following two builds and help me figure out which is the better route to take. Please do note that the base class is a Domain Wizard with a custom domain that has Miracle in it so there is no real need to take the Arcane Disciple feat.

Also assume that this is a Middle Aged Illuminian Wizard with the Krau and Aesh sigil and two flaws.
STATS:
STR: 10 (11-1), DEX: 8 (9-1), CON: 16 (17-1), INT: 19 (18+1), WIS: 13 (12+1), CHA: 18 (17+1)

Option 1: Domain Illiminian Wizard 5/ Mindbender 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 3/ Heartfire Fanner 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Ultimate Magus 9
Option 2: Domain Illiminian Wizard 5/ Mindbender 1/ Prestige Bard 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 3/ Sublime Chord 1/ Ultimate Magus 9

What's the difference between the two?

OPTION ONE will only break spell casting progression for 1 level and gain the Bardic Music through the Heartfire Fanner PrC (default level 5 Bardic Music and a song that grants allies a bonus feat), allowing us to gain all the prerequisites for Sublime Chord without stopping spell casting progression. The problem with this build is that the prerequisites for Heartfire Fanner require that we learn two useless feats, feats that could have been used to gain Arcane Mastery and Signature Spell: Silent Illusion for some awesome versatility (prepare nothing but utility spells and cast Silent Illusion to fuel Shadow Illusion spontenously). This build actually has two free slots that it can use for the feats, the only thing is that they come in at ECL 18 and 20, much too late for me.

OPTION TWO will force us to lose two spell casting progression levels in order to fulfill the Bardic Music requirement for Sublime Chord, our Bardic Music level will not be as high as when we took Heartfire Fanner nor will we get his awesome feat granting song. On the upside, we free up those two feats that will allow us to learn Signature Spell: Silent Illusion and gain some versatility on the whole.

So far, feat progression looks like this:
ECL 1 (3) Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Extend Spell
ECL 3 (1) Earth Spell
ECL 5 (1) Spell Focus: Illusion
ECL 6 (1) Skill Focus: Perform (Heartfire Fanner Prereq)
ECL 9 (1) Negotiator (Heartfire Fanner Prereq)
ECL 12 (1) Residual Metamagic
ECL 15 (1) Improved Sigil (Krau)
ECL 16 (1) Persistent Spell
ECL 18 (1) (Free)
ECL 20 (1) (Free)

Would like to hear some recommendations for the last two feats

Regardless of what route we take, the build is always going to have the following benefits:
- Able to cast 9th level evoc/conj spells via Shadow Illusion from a 8th level slot. Could be lowered if we use the Easy Metamagic exploit
- Awesomely high caster level due to various spells, Improved Krau, and Earth Spell
- Capable of persisting a good number of spells via synergy between Augment Casting (UM class ability), Residual Metamagic, and Shadow
Illusion used to mimic a Miracle Spell.

----- Necrotic Empowerment
----- Fiend Form + Draconic Polymorph into a Pit Fiend, Bite of the Werebear (Great since we have Aeshkrau, resulting in an Str score of 61 = 37 Pit Fiend + 16 Bite of the Werebear + 8 Draconic Polymorph)
----- Arcane Spellsurge
----- Nixie Grace
----- Swords of Darkness (made awesome by our jacked up caster level)
----- Wraithstrike, Aspect of Bahamut, and Tenser's Transformation (On familiar)
----- BattleMagic Perception

So, what does CO think? Which route should I take?

Also, would like to ask for some help concerning a trick I might have discovered.

This concerns the spell Energy Transformation Field from SpC. Taking a look at the spell and was thinking that it would be awesome if the field could follow me around wherever I go. So was thinking of casting it into something that creates extrdimensional spaces, like say, a Permanent Familar Pocket spell and just keeping the lid of the container open. That way, the space where the field is planted still follows me around. My question is, (1) Would the field (30 ft radius) spill out to Material Plane and follow me wherever I go, since it is a relative space (which is only 10ft in size), and (2) How would Energy Transformation Field function with an Illusion spell that requires the caster to give shape to the illusion first? (3) and most importantly, suppose I link a Silent Image heightened to 9th level to the field, every time the field casts the spell, would I be able to use the Heightened Silent Image to fuel Residual Metamagic and instantly heightened the next Silent Image for Shadow Illusion I cast to 9th level?

I think the interaction of Residual Metamagic and Energy Trasnformation in (3) might actually work as the spell description states that the spell functions as though the caster of the field had cast it.

If (3) works, and assuming that I cast a Silent Image every round, then I would have effectively heightened ALL my prepared Silent Images to 9th level. All I have to do is get the field to fire once, then cast a Silent Image spell instantly heightened to 9th level due to Residual Metamagic, which will in turn feed the field another 9 levels of spell energy causing it to fire instantly again, giving me yet again residual metamagic to heighten my next Silent Image to 9th level, etc... etc... ad infinitum! A loop ensuring that I cast a 9th level spell every round!

Would this trick actually work?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 05:14:11 AM by fun_at_funerals »
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sublime chord doesn't actually get 1st, second or third level spells, thus disqualifying it from meeting UM pre-reqs.  take alcrious cognitation to be able to qualify.
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fun_at_funerals

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I've gone over the rules with my DM and we both agree that the requirements for UM actually demand a minimum level of power. Really made no sense to either of us to deny someone entry into a class that requires a level of magic below what one is already capable of.
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DavidWL

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 05:37:13 AM »
I have no comment about your trick, but about the build - I think that while heartfire fanner is an awesome prestige class, you should go the other route, because 2 feats matter a Whole LOT to a shadowcraft mage.

Best,
David
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Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 06:30:41 AM »
But do you think those feats are worth delaying caster level progression by 2 levels? HFF is really only there to get Bardic Music without breaking spell progression. I feel really hesitant about holding off access to higher level spells even by 1 level unless the pay off is really ginormous
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DavidWL

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 06:38:25 AM »
The feats delay the caster progression by 1 more than the alternative (not 2 more than the alternative) - and yes, I think 2 feats (for a shadowcraft mage) are worth 1 CL.  Shadowcraft mage is a build that gets _a lot_ out of feats.

Being able to have 2 feats earlier (for example, residual and signature spell) makes many of your spells much higher level (from residual metamagic) and also lets you prep many utility spells making you more flexible.  I think this is worth a CL at mid levels.

Also, because he's taking Sublime Chord, I believe he can choose to have all of the lost caster levels from ultimate magus be on any side he desires, so it isn't necessary a loss of 2 CL unless he is shooting for a fixed level of Sublime Chord progression.

"A sublime Chords caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcaster level is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another spellcasting class" - so he could choose to take the hit levels from ultimate magus to any class desired.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

fun_at_funerals

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 07:26:02 AM »
I see, you make a good point. So I'm guessing feat progression would be better along the lines of:
ECL 1 (3) Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell
ECL 3 (1) Improved Sigil (Krau)
ECL 5 (1) Spell Focus: Illusion
ECL 6 (1) Residual Metamagic
ECL 9 (1) Spell Mastery
ECL 12 (1) Signature Spell
ECL 15 (1) Extend Spell
ECL 16 (1) Persistent Spell
ECL 18 (1) (Free)
ECL 20 (1) (Free)

Do you have any suggestions on the best feat progression/choices for this build?

Another question though, I was thinking that I might offset the delay in caster progression with Easy Metamagic: Heighten, allowing me to further jack up the spell level : spell slot ratio of my Shadow Illusion.  The feat however requires a metamagic feat of at least +2 spell slot adjustment. Would Heighten Spell allow me to merit the feat given that it's Spell Slot Adjustment is variable?
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Caelic

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2009, 06:23:26 PM »
Also, because he's taking Sublime Chord, I believe he can choose to have all of the lost caster levels from ultimate magus be on any side he desires, so it isn't necessary a loss of 2 CL unless he is shooting for a fixed level of Sublime Chord progression.


Wellll...no.  At least, not unless the DM is being fairly liberal.


Quote
"A sublime Chords caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcaster level is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another spellcasting class" - so he could choose to take the hit levels from ultimate magus to any class desired.


Note: the CL is determined by adding the SC level to the character's level in another spellcasting class.  Not his or her CASTER level; the actual class level.

So if I'm a Wizard 7/SC 1 with practiced spellcaster in Wizard, by RAW I'm still only going to have a SC caster level of eight.

Thus, caster level bumps added to Wizard WILL raise the CL higher than the SC caster level--again, by a strict reading.

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2009, 08:49:11 PM »
[tangent]

Caelic - seems your "absence" is growing hearts fonder, again.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3358.0

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2009, 03:38:53 PM »
As a Wizard specialized in Illusion, you could sacrifice your bonus Illusion slots to gain Spell Mastery for all Illusion spells you learn as a Wizard.  (Here)

Caster levels are probably worth useless feats.  A level 10 Wizard who used all his feats poorly (Skill Focus: Underwater Cleric Shaving) but properly chooses his gear, spells, and tactics is still a mighty Wizard.  A level 10 "Wizard" with 8 base Wizard levels is probably too far behind to be an effective Wizard.

As a primary caster, many things will tempt you to reduce your caster level now for possible benefits later.  Most likely, your campaign will end within 3 levels.
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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2009, 06:11:23 PM »
Where is heartfire Fanner from?

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2009, 11:34:47 AM »
Quote from: Endarire
As a Wizard specialized in Illusion, you could sacrifice your bonus Illusion slots to gain Spell Mastery for all Illusion spells you learn as a Wizard.  (Here)

Caster levels are probably worth useless feats.  A level 10 Wizard who used all his feats poorly (Skill Focus: Underwater Cleric Shaving) but properly chooses his gear, spells, and tactics is still a mighty Wizard.  A level 10 "Wizard" with 8 base Wizard levels is probably too far behind to be an effective Wizard.

As a primary caster, many things will tempt you to reduce your caster level now for possible benefits later.  Most likely, your campaign will end within 3 levels.

The thing with Specialization, I feel a tad iffy about specialization as I like to keep all my options open. I know I can always drop evocation but I can never decide on what other school to drop. Also, Domain Wizards are incapable of specializing. The reason for domain is that I can construct a custom domain with Miracle on it which also makes the spell considered as part of my class list (Sorc/Wiz spells), making it a viable target for Shadow Illusion.

On caster levels and feats, my feelings exactly, it's just that Signature Spell will vastly increase my versatility as a wizard, allowing me to prepare nothing but utilitarian non-evoc/conj spells and spontaneously cast Silent Image for Shadow Illusion. That amount of versatility, I think, makes dropping a few levels worth it though.

The only think I can think of to off set the caster level loss is jacking up the highest level of spell that I can Heighten Silent Image to. Thanks to Earth Spell and Improved Krau, I've effectively accelerated my spell casting progression for Evoc/Conj spells. While I'm casting level 5 spells for other schools, I'm capable of mimicking level 6 spells at that same ECL.

Also, DavidWL has a good point that, if I can accelerate the rate at which I get Residual Metamagic, I effectively increase the number of higher level spells that I can cast, which, in itself, seems worth the second hit to spellcasting progression.

What do you think?

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Where is heartfire Fanner from?

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Echoes

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2009, 08:05:33 PM »
Also, because he's taking Sublime Chord, I believe he can choose to have all of the lost caster levels from ultimate magus be on any side he desires, so it isn't necessary a loss of 2 CL unless he is shooting for a fixed level of Sublime Chord progression.


Wellll...no.  At least, not unless the DM is being fairly liberal.


Quote
"A sublime Chords caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcaster level is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another spellcasting class" - so he could choose to take the hit levels from ultimate magus to any class desired.


Note: the CL is determined by adding the SC level to the character's level in another spellcasting class.  Not his or her CASTER level; the actual class level.

So if I'm a Wizard 7/SC 1 with practiced spellcaster in Wizard, by RAW I'm still only going to have a SC caster level of eight.

Thus, caster level bumps added to Wizard WILL raise the CL higher than the SC caster level--again, by a strict reading.

He should still be able to apply the UM losses to whichever side. His only CL bumps are coming from the sigils, which are a universal boost, so both SC and Wizard benefit. When he takes his 1st level of SC both will have a CL of 10 (assuming he's going Wiz 5/Mindbender 1/ScM 3/PrC Bard 1/SC 1 @ 11th). His total CL at 20th will be 30 for both, including the UMs +CL ability and the sigils.
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fun_at_funerals

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 09:35:23 AM »
Quote from: Echoes
He should still be able to apply the UM losses to whichever side. His only CL bumps are coming from the sigils, which are a universal boost, so both SC and Wizard benefit. When he takes his 1st level of SC both will have a CL of 10 (assuming he's going Wiz 5/Mindbender 1/ScM 3/PrC Bard 1/SC 1 @ 11th). His total CL at 20th will be 30 for both, including the UMs +CL ability and the sigils.

Wait... 30 CL for both by ECL 20? How did you get that number? With the UM boost (+3) and Sigils (+2), I'm expecting at most 23 CL. Krau's bonus doesn't allow your CL to go past your ECL, it's just for compensating for disruptions in caster level progression.

Question: Does the Krau Sigil just raise your caster level or does it also forward your spell casting progression? That is, if I'm if I'm behind in my spell casting due to multiclassing (ex: Wiz 10/Fighter 2, giving us 5th level casting), would it progress spell casting during those levels that I multiclassed (ex: Wiz5/Fighter 2 with 6th level casting despite the levels in fighter)?

Realization: With the Option 1 in the opening post, I'll gain access to 9th level spells by ECL 16, allowing me to pull of the Miracle trick.
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Echoes

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2009, 02:02:23 PM »
Wait... 30 CL for both by ECL 20? How did you get that number? With the UM boost (+3) and Sigils (+2), I'm expecting at most 23 CL. Krau's bonus doesn't allow your CL to go past your ECL, it's just for compensating for disruptions in caster level progression.

It's because of how SC interacts with dual-progression classes. Sublime Chord states that "[a] sublime chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class." This does funky things with Ultimate Magus.

Assuming you go Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Prestige Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1, your CL at level 11 is 10 for both Wizard and Sublime Chord (9th-level Wizard spellcasting, 1st-level Sublime Chord spellcasting). Thanks to Sublime Chord, your CL for both classes will always be the same, meaning you always get to choose which side to advance when Ultimate Magus progresses only one class.

Going back to the build, Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Prestige Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1, here's a level-by-level progression detailing spellcasting and CL increases from Ultimate Magus (these are incremented seperately):

ECL - Class - Wizard spellcasting/Sublime Chord spellcasting (Total CL)

12 - Ultimate Magus 1 - 10/1 (11)
13 - Ultimate Magus 2 - 11/2 (13)
14 - Ultimate Magus 3 - 12/3 (15)
15 - Ultimate Magus 4 - 13/3 (16)
16 - Ultimate Magus 5 - 14/4 (18)
17 - Ultimate Magus 6 - 15/5 (20)
18 - Ultimate Magus 7 - 16/5 (21)
19 - Ultimate Magus 8 - 17/6 (23)
20 - Ultimate Magus 9 - 18/7 (25)

As you can see, each level where Ultimate Magus advances both Wizard and Sublime Chord is worth 2 CLs thanks to Sublime Chord's CL stacking.

So, our base CL is 25. Now, because of the rule that players always gets to apply modifiers in the most beneficial order, we can count the sigils before we count Sublime Chord's CL equalization (since Sublime Chord doesn't specify that it is restricted by HD). Our Wizard spellcasting "loses" 2 levels - 1 to Prestige Bard and 1 to Sublime Chord - so we can fill those in with the sigil bonus. Sublime Chord "loses" 3 CL to UM, so 2 of those can be filled by the sigils. So, re-equalizing CLs raises us to CL 27 (the sigils aren't class levels and thus don't get transfered around via Sublime Chord). Finally we add Ultimate Magus's arcane spell power +3 (which again is a flat increase like the sigils), giving us a total CL of 30.

Question: Does the Krau Sigil just raise your caster level or does it also forward your spell casting progression? That is, if I'm if I'm behind in my spell casting due to multiclassing (ex: Wiz 10/Fighter 2, giving us 5th level casting), would it progress spell casting during those levels that I multiclassed (ex: Wiz5/Fighter 2 with 6th level casting despite the levels in fighter)?

The sigil bonus is simply a CL increase, not a spellcasting increasing, just like an orange ioun stone.
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Caelic

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2009, 03:32:47 PM »
Assuming you go Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Prestige Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1, your CL at level 11 is 10 for both Wizard and Sublime Chord (9th-level Wizard spellcasting, 1st-level Sublime Chord spellcasting). Thanks to Sublime Chord, your CL for both classes will always be the same, meaning you always get to choose which side to advance when Ultimate Magus progresses only one class.


...except that, as I pointed out, that's not really the case.  In the example above, the CL for Sublime Chord would be 6 (Wizard 5 + SC 1.)

Yes, many people read the passage as "caster level" rather than "level in class"--but that reading is the source of a lot of problems (infinite caster level loops spring to mind immediately.)

There ARE classes which calculate their CL using the CL of other classes, but they're rare--Knight of the Weave and Apostle of Peace are the only two I can think of offhand.  Both Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest, by RAW, reference class level.  (This is why my preferred Ultimate Magus build relies on KoTW.)

What's important here is the DM in the specific campaign, and what his or her ruling on Sublime Chord caster level is.  Knowing that will dictate a lot of things about the build.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 03:34:28 PM by Caelic »

Echoes

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2009, 03:47:56 PM »
Assuming you go Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Prestige Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1, your CL at level 11 is 10 for both Wizard and Sublime Chord (9th-level Wizard spellcasting, 1st-level Sublime Chord spellcasting). Thanks to Sublime Chord, your CL for both classes will always be the same, meaning you always get to choose which side to advance when Ultimate Magus progresses only one class.


...except that, as I pointed out, that's not really the case.  In the example above, the CL for Sublime Chord would be 6 (Wizard 5 + SC 1.)

Yes, many people read the passage as "caster level" rather than "level in class"--but that reading is the source of a lot of problems (infinite caster level loops spring to mind immediately.)

There ARE classes which calculate their CL using the CL of other classes, but they're rare--Knight of the Weave and Apostle of Peace are the only two I can think of offhand.  Both Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest, by RAW, reference class level.  (This is why my preferred Ultimate Magus build relies on KoTW.)

What's important here is the DM in the specific campaign, and what his or her ruling on Sublime Chord caster level is.  Knowing that will dictate a lot of things about the build.

"At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level." That's cribbed from the Unseen Seer's (the first PrC I opened to) spellcasting section.

Your PrC levels stack with your base class levels for the purposes of spellcasting, which includes Sublime Chord's CL calculations. If you're a Wizard 5/ScM 4, your Wizard spellcasting level is 9. You don't have some phantom ScM spellcasting level on top of your base Wizard spellcasting.
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Quotes I Found Entertaining:

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
[spoiler]
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
[/spoiler]

Caelic

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2009, 04:25:52 PM »
"At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level." That's cribbed from the Unseen Seer's (the first PrC I opened to) spellcasting section.


Correct.  Your caster level increases.  Caster level is not class level.  Having your caster level increase as if you had gained a class level is not the same thing as gaining a class level; effects which reference class level are NOT going to be impressed.

An example: certain prestige classes require a specific level in a specific class--say, "Wizard level 5."  If you have a single level of wizard, you do NOT qualify, even if you have four levels of PrCs boosting your wizard caster level.


Quote
Your PrC levels stack with your base class levels for the purposes of spellcasting, which includes Sublime Chord's CL calculations. If you're a Wizard 5/ScM 4, your Wizard spellcasting level is 9. You don't have some phantom ScM spellcasting level on top of your base Wizard spellcasting.


Sublime Chord doesn't reference "spellcasting level," which would arguably be congruent with "caster level."  It references "level in a spellcasting class," which is congruent with "class level."

Caster level and class level are two distinct values, both of which have specific and clear definitions in the rules, and they're NOT interchangeable.

I suppose you could argue that "level in a class" is not the same as "class level," but I think that's stretching semantics to the breaking point.

As I said: I know it's not a popular argument; the popular argument is generally the one that gives the most plusses.  It is, however, the least-liberal reading of the rules.

Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter whether you accept my position, or I accept yours; what matters is what the OP's DM says on the matter.

Anklebite

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2009, 05:23:59 PM »
up until that realization about the specific wording of +1 cl PrCs, i thought the same.... but it DOES say "as if you had gained a level", which, by RAW, counts it....  wow, this makes ultimate magus a helluva lot better  :D
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Caelic

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Re: Unlocking ULTIMATE POWER with the Ultimate Sublime Shadowcraft Mage
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2009, 05:38:15 PM »
up until that realization about the specific wording of +1 cl PrCs, i thought the same.... but it DOES say "as if you had gained a level", which, by RAW, counts it.


How do you figure?  Don't just read "As if you had gained a level"; read the entire sentence. 

The text very clearly spells out what increases "as if you had gained a level."  Your number of spells, your spells known, and your caster level go up as if you had gained a level.  That's it.


Now, Echoes made this claim:

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Your PrC levels stack with your base class levels for the purposes of spellcasting, which includes Sublime Chord's CL calculations.

That's just not supported by the text. 

It doesn't say "You go up a level for any and all purposes involving spellcasting," which is what would be necessary for it to apply to the CL calculation of Sublime Chord (or Ur-Priest.)  Neither one of those references your number of spells, your spells known, or your caster level.

Note that there are classes that do work this way--and no interpretation is necessary.

Compare the text of Ur-Priest:

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To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes.

to the text of Apostle of Peace:

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To determine the caster level of an apostle of peace, add the character's apostle levels to one-half of his caster levels in other spellcasting classes.


The ability's nearly identical, except for that ONE difference.  Why would they use different wording if they wanted them to mean the same thing?
 
What's more, they created such classes BEFORE Sublime Chord (Apostle of Peace) and AFTER Sublime Chord (Knight of the Weave.)

Now, neither one is a particularly good ruling by which to operate, in my opinion; we use our own house rules for such classes. 

But "Sublime Chord uses caster levels and therefore allows double-dipping" simply isn't supported by the text of the rules or by precedent.  It's certainly a popular way to play, but it's not RAW.


« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 05:46:42 PM by Caelic »