Optimizing the Worst

[Stratovarius]

This is an idea for which I have to thank (or blame), Prime32, for his comment here. The immediate thought that sprang to mind would be just how well can you optimize a Healer/Warmage/Mystic Theurge build, using 32 point buy.

The Worst (still undergoing some changes)
[spoiler]The Worst

Race: Bamboo Spirit Folk
Alignment: NG
Stats: Str 8/Dex 10/Con 14/Int 12/Wis 16/Cha 16 (required: Con 13, Wis 13)

Code: [Select]

Level  Classes              Skills Needed   Skills                          Feats
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1      Healer 1                             4 (Sur 4, Arc 4, Rel 4, Nat 4)  Educated (ECS), Earth Sense (Murky Eyed), Earth Spell (Noncombatant)
2      Warmage 1                            1 (Arc, Rel)
3      Mystic Theurge 1     Arc 6, Rel 6    1 (Arc, Rel)                    Heighten Spell
4      Mystic Theurge 2                     2 (Nat)
5      Mystic Theurge 3                     2 (Nat)
6      Sand Shaper 1        Sur 4, Nat 4    4 (Nat)                         Touchstone (City of the Dead) [Sandstorm]
7      Mystic Theurge 4                     2 (Nat 8)
8      Mystic Theurge 5                     2 (Arc)
9      Mystic Theurge 6                     2 (Arc 8)                       Versatile Spellcaster       
10     Mystic Theurge 7                     3
11     Arcane Hierophant 1  Arc 8, Nat 8    3
12     Arcane Hierophant 2     3                             Extraordinary Spell Aim
13     Arcane Hierophant 3                  3           
14     Arcane Hierophant 4                  3
15     Arcane Hierophant 5     3                             Empower Spell
16     Arcane Hierophant 6                  3         
17     Arcane Hierophant 7                  3
18     Arcane Hierophant 8     3                             Practised Caster (Warmage)
19     Arcane Hierophant 9                  3         
20     Arcane Hierophant 10                 3
Requirements:

• Mystic Theurge - Arcana 6, Religion 6
• Arcane Heirophant - Arcana 8, Nature 8, BAB 4, non-lawful
• Sand Shaper - Nature 4, Survival 4, any neutral, Touchstone (City of the Dead)

Class Ideas:
I can fit in a single class that boosts arcane casting, if the first level is really worth it. I'm not inclined to do so at the moment, however.

Feat Ideas:
I've been looking at using the Arcane Thesis (Scorching Ray) + assorted metamagic feats as probably the primary option, maxing out the Warmage's trick of lots of damage, but the poor Dex makes me not as fond of that as I might be. Still, something like Arcane Thesis (Enervation) + Split Ray, Twin Spell, Empower Spell, is probably my best bet.

An idea that is certainly piquing my interest is Arcane Thesis combined with Fell Animate, in order to have a Neutral Good healer with a small army of zombies. And yes, this stretches the bounds of anything remotely sane.

I recall there are feats/class abilities that let lower level spells be combined into higher level ones, but I don't believe there are ones that allow powering of arcane spells with divine slots, and so on. If there are, it would help greatly.

Suggestions are welcome.

Pro:

• Warmage Casting - Level 18 spontaneous casting/9th spells.
• Healer Casting - Level 18 casting/9th spells.
• Sanctified Spells - Useable by the Healer. Gives much needed divine versatility.
• Gets into the dual progression class very quickly, losing only one caster level.
• Sand Shaper spells, giving much needed power boost to the arcane side. Allows buffing using the low level slots, and adds increased options for battlefield control, including via summons.
• Volume of spells: More spells than actions in battle.
• Versatile Spellcaster: Allows the use of more higher level spells, should the need arise.
• Extraordinary Spell Aim: Better utilization of battlefield control spells.
• Cloudy Conjuration: Turns all those conjuration spells into debuffers, as well.
• Practised Caster (Warmage): Making up for the lack of caster level.

Con:

• Warmage Casting - It's a Warmage.
• Healer Casting - It's a Healer.
• Mystic Theurge - It's a Mystic Theurge.
• Caster Level/DCs - These fall behind those of a single class caster, as expected.
• Skills - Limited skill points, mostly spread out to cover requirements for the first 10 levels.
• Stats - As with almost all dual-class casters, the stat spread suffers from severe MAD. Will need magic items to reach 19 in both casting stats.
• Feats - 5 feats are taken with making the trick work at all, limiting feat choice severely.
• AC/Attack - The lack of Dex from MAD makes the defenses and offense suffer.

Touchstone is gained via having a Touchstone Key (item of 250gp).

I haven't gotten into items yet, because I'd rather the build stand mostly on its own.[/spoiler]

[Tshern]

Prime32's comment actually, but good thing that I still managed to inspire you. Good luck with that build though...

[Stratovarius]

Prime32's comment actually, but good thing that I still managed to inspire you. Good luck with that build though...

For some reason, I conflate your two avatars.

Oh, I don't think I can make this build playable, much beyond a basic level. Consider it an exercise in Masochism.

[amalcon]

Anyone remember how "adding to your spell list" works with more than one spellcasting class?  If there's something that adds to both the Healer and Warmage spell lists, you could cast those spells a LOT...

[Stratovarius]

I was thinking about the Sandshaper, certainly. There's also the Frost Mage (I believe that's the class name). Even with the lost caster levels to one side of the build, they would add enough spells to make it worthwhile, given the limited selection. However, I think both of those are arcane only, and wouldn't help the healer half all of that much.

[Tshern]

For some reason, I conflate your two avatars.

Oh, I don't think I can make this build playable, much beyond a basic level. Consider it an exercise in Masochism.

Mixing the Joker with something else is blasphemy (CL 78). And I know all about excercises in masochism...

[amalcon]

I was thinking more along the lines of picking up random domains:  one level of Contemplative, and maybe some levels in Seeker of the Misty Isle.  I just don't remember if acquired domains for non-Clerics only add to the spell list of the class you're advancing, or to your spell list in general.

[Stratovarius]

For some reason, I conflate your two avatars.

Oh, I don't think I can make this build playable, much beyond a basic level. Consider it an exercise in Masochism.

Mixing the Joker with something else is blasphemy (CL 78). And I know all about excercises in masochism...

I like blasphemy. Makes life more exciting.

I was thinking more along the lines of picking up random domains:  one level of Contemplative, and maybe some levels in Seeker of the Misty Isle.  I just don't remember if acquired domains for non-Clerics only add to the spell list of the class you're advancing, or to your spell list in general.

Divine Oracle to pick up the domain granted there. There's also the Eberron class that grants many domains (name blanking at the moment). However, part of the goal is to get the caster and spell levels as high as possible on each side of the build. There wouldn't happen to be a dual caster handbook, would there?

Warmage Edge isn't worth it as a feat with just 3-4 Warmage levels, I would think.

[Shadeseraph]

Divine Oracle to pick up the domain granted there. There's also the Eberron class that grants many domains (name blanking at the moment). However, part of the goal is to get the caster and spell levels as high as possible on each side of the build. There wouldn't happen to be a dual caster handbook, would there?

No, no dual handbook. There is something similar in 339, but not a handbook. But I can help you.

If you want to maximize casting in both classes, the way is:

Race: Spirit Folk (bamboo) from oriental adventures, it gives you trackless step. Updated on Unapproachable East
Warmage 1~2; feats Heighten Spell, Earth Sense
Healer 1~2; feat Earth Spell
Mystic Theurge 7
Arcane Hierofant 10

You have place for a single prestige class for extra known spells.

Warmage Edge isn't worth it as a feat with just 3-4 Warmage levels, I would think.

Warmage Edge was never worth any feat.

[Stratovarius]

Interesting, I'll have to take a stab at that from home. I'm leaning towards Sandshaper for the spells gained, unless there are other ideas.

And at some point I suppose I should try hacking together a dual-caster handbook, although there are some that have already been done (Anima Mage, the Shadowcasting clss).

If this can be made to work, I'll actually attempt to play it in the next PbP I'm in, DM allowing.

[Mohji]

For some reason, I conflate your two avatars.

Oh, I don't think I can make this build playable, much beyond a basic level. Consider it an exercise in Masochism.

Mixing the Joker with something else is blasphemy (CL 78). And I know all about excercises in masochism...

I like blasphemy. Makes life more exciting.

I was thinking more along the lines of picking up random domains:  one level of Contemplative, and maybe some levels in Seeker of the Misty Isle.  I just don't remember if acquired domains for non-Clerics only add to the spell list of the class you're advancing, or to your spell list in general.

Divine Oracle to pick up the domain granted there. There's also the Eberron class that grants many domains (name blanking at the moment). However, part of the goal is to get the caster and spell levels as high as possible on each side of the build. There wouldn't happen to be a dual caster handbook, would there?

Warmage Edge isn't worth it as a feat with just 3-4 Warmage levels, I would think.

Sovereign Speaker, Faiths of Ebberon.

[Stratovarius]

Thank you. I should have known that one. 11 domains in ten levels is certainly nice.

[Stratovarius]

Took me a good bit longer than I wanted to to get back to this character build. It's mostly based off of Shadeseraph's idea, although there are still a few points where I'm having troubles. I may end up needing to take a fairly blah feat in order to make it work.

The Worst
[spoiler]The Worst

Race: Bamboo Spirit Folk
Alignment: NG
Stats: Str 8/Dex 10/Con 14/Int 12/Wis 16/Cha 16 (required: Con 13, Wis 13)

Code: [Select]

Level  Classes              Skills Needed   Skills                          Feats
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1      Healer 1                             4 (Sur 4, Arc 4, Rel 4, Nat 4)  Educated (ECS), Earth Sense (Murky Eyed), Earth Spell (Noncombatant)
2      Warmage 1                            1 (Arc, Rel)
3      Mystic Theurge 1     Arc 6, Rel 6    1 (Arc, Rel)                    Heighten Spell
4      Mystic Theurge 2                     2 (Nat)
5      Mystic Theurge 3                     2 (Nat)
6      Sand Shaper 1        Sur 4, Nat 4    4 (Nat)                         Touchstone (City of the Dead) [Sandstorm]
7      Mystic Theurge 4                     2 (Nat 8)
8      Mystic Theurge 5                     2 (Arc)
9      Mystic Theurge 6                     2 (Arc 8)                       Versatile Spellcaster       
10     Mystic Theurge 7                     3
11     Arcane Hierophant 1  Arc 8, Nat 8    3
12     Arcane Hierophant 2     3                             Extraordinary Spell Aim
13     Arcane Hierophant 3                  3           
14     Arcane Hierophant 4                  3
15     Arcane Hierophant 5     3                             Empower Spell
16     Arcane Hierophant 6                  3         
17     Arcane Hierophant 7                  3
18     Arcane Hierophant 8     3                             Practised Caster (Warmage)
19     Arcane Hierophant 9                  3         
20     Arcane Hierophant 10                 3
Requirements:

• Mystic Theurge - Arcana 6, Religion 6
• Arcane Heirophant - Arcana 8, Nature 8, BAB 4, non-lawful
• Sand Shaper - Nature 4, Survival 4, any neutral, Touchstone (City of the Dead)

Class Ideas:
I can fit in a single class that boosts arcane casting, if the first level is really worth it. I'm not inclined to do so at the moment, however.

Feat Ideas:
I've been looking at using the Arcane Thesis (Scorching Ray) + assorted metamagic feats as probably the primary option, maxing out the Warmage's trick of lots of damage, but the poor Dex makes me not as fond of that as I might be. Still, something like Arcane Thesis (Enervation) + Split Ray, Twin Spell, Empower Spell, is probably my best bet.

An idea that is certainly piquing my interest is Arcane Thesis combined with Fell Animate, in order to have a Neutral Good healer with a small army of zombies. And yes, this stretches the bounds of anything remotely sane.

I recall there are feats/class abilities that let lower level spells be combined into higher level ones, but I don't believe there are ones that allow powering of arcane spells with divine slots, and so on. If there are, it would help greatly.

Suggestions are welcome.

Pro:

• Warmage Casting - Level 18 spontaneous casting/9th spells.
• Healer Casting - Level 18 casting/9th spells.
• Sanctified Spells - Useable by the Healer. Gives much needed divine versatility.
• Gets into the dual progression class very quickly, losing only one caster level.
• Sand Shaper spells, giving much needed power boost to the arcane side. Allows buffing using the low level slots, and adds increased options for battlefield control, including via summons.
• Volume of spells: More spells than actions in battle.
• Versatile Spellcaster: Allows the use of more higher level spells, should the need arise.
• Extraordinary Spell Aim: Better utilization of battlefield control spells.
• Cloudy Conjuration: Turns all those conjuration spells into debuffers, as well.
• Practised Caster (Warmage): Making up for the lack of caster level.

Con:

• Warmage Casting - It's a Warmage.
• Healer Casting - It's a Healer.
• Mystic Theurge - It's a Mystic Theurge.
• Caster Level/DCs - These fall behind those of a single class caster, as expected.
• Skills - Limited skill points, mostly spread out to cover requirements for the first 10 levels.
• Stats - As with almost all dual-class casters, the stat spread suffers from severe MAD. Will need magic items to reach 19 in both casting stats.
• Feats - 5 feats are taken with making the trick work at all, limiting feat choice severely.
• AC/Attack - The lack of Dex from MAD makes the defenses and offense suffer.

Touchstone is gained via having a Touchstone Key (item of 250gp).

I haven't gotten into items yet, because I'd rather the build stand mostly on its own.[/spoiler]

The Worst, Summoner Style
[spoiler]The Worst, Summoner Style

Race: Bamboo Spirit Folk
Alignment: NG
Stats: Str 8/Dex 10/Con 14/Int 12/Wis 16/Cha 16 (required: Con 13, Wis 13)

Code: [Select]

Level  Classes              Skills Needed   Skills                          Feats
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1      Healer 1                             4 (Sur 4, Arc 4, Rel 4, Nat 4)  Educated (ECS), Earth Sense (Murky Eyed), Earth Spell (Noncombatant)
2      Warmage 1                            1 (Arc, Rel)
3      Warmage 2            Arc 6, Rel 6    1 (Arc, Rel)                    Heighten Spell
4      Mystic Theurge 1                     2 (Nat)
5      Mystic Theurge 2                     2 (Nat)
6      Sand Shaper 1        Sur 4, Nat 4    4 (Nat)                         Touchstone (City of the Dead) [Sandstorm]
7      Mystic Theurge 3                     2 (Nat 8)
8      Mystic Theurge 4                     2 (Arc)
9      Mystic Theurge 5                     2 (Arc 8)                       Spell Focus: Conjuration       
10     Mystic Theurge 6                     3
11     Arcane Hierophant 1  Arc 8, Nat 8    3
12     Arcane Hierophant 2     3                             Augment Summoning
13     Arcane Hierophant 3                  3           
14     Arcane Hierophant 4                  3
15     Arcane Hierophant 5     3                             Summon Elemental
16     Arcane Hierophant 6                  3         
17     Arcane Hierophant 7                  3
18     Arcane Hierophant 8     3                             Cloudy Conjuration
19     Arcane Hierophant 9                  3         
20     Arcane Hierophant 10                 3
Requirements:

• Mystic Theurge - Arcana 6, Religion 6
• Arcane Heirophant - Arcana 8, Nature 8, BAB 4, non-lawful
• Sand Shaper - Nature 4, Survival 4, any neutral, Touchstone (City of the Dead)

Class Ideas:
I can replace the second Warmage level with any class that requires knowledge skills (I can squeeze in one other skill, provided it's on a class list), and the ability to cast 2nd level or lower spells, but no feats. Arcane or divine does not really matter.

Feat Ideas:
I've been looking at using the Arcane Thesis (Scorching Ray) + assorted metamagic feats as probably the primary option, maxing out the Warmage's trick of lots of damage, but the poor Dex makes me not as fond of that as I might be. Still, something like Arcane Thesis (Enervation) + Split Ray, Twin Spell, Empower Spell, is probably my best bet.

An idea that is certainly piquing my interest is Arcane Thesis combined with Fell Animate, in order to have a Neutral Good healer with a small army of zombies. And yes, this stretches the bounds of anything remotely sane.

I recall there are feats/class abilities that let lower level spells be combined into higher level ones, but I don't believe there are ones that allow powering of arcane spells with divine slots, and so on. If there are, it would help greatly.

Suggestions are welcome.

Pro:

• Warmage Casting - Level 18 spontaneous casting/9th spells, including all Sand Shaper spells.
• Healer Casting - Level 17 casting/9th spells.
• Sanctified Spells - Useable by the Healer
• Focuses around the use of Summon Desert Ally. Suboptimal, I know, but this exercise is more for fun than anything else.
• Uses Cloudy Conjuration and Spell Focus: Conjuration for support and/or damage spells.

Con:

• Warmage Casting - It's a Warmage.
• Healer Casting - It's a Healer.
• Mystic Theurge - It's a Mystic Theurge.
• Skills - Limited skill points, mostly spread out to cover requirements for the first 10 levels.
• Stats - As with almost all dual-class casters, the stat spread suffers from severe MAD.
• Feats - 5 feats are taken with making the trick work at all, limiting feat choice severely.
• AC/Attack - The lack of Dex from MAD makes the defenses and offense suffer.

Touchstone is gained via having a Touchstone Key (item of 250gp).

I haven't gotten into items yet, because I'd rather the build stand mostly on its own.[/spoiler]

And a big thanks to all who have helped so far.

[Cyrocloud]

Healer does get gate at 9th level, so you still could beat most other classes  . 


You can't help but feel bad for melee characters sometimes... 

[Snizor]

Healer is a prepared caster eh?
Use Sanctified Spells on the healer side (yay class-independent spells).

[Stratovarius]

I'd forgotten about using Sanctified or Vile spells (got to be Sanctified for the build, obviously). I'll take a wander through them and see what there is that would be helpful. It certainly gets my spells much more into the useful range, as opposed to where they would be originally.

And I've never been able to explain Healers getting Gate, it's just like they wanted to make the worst spellcaster ever better than almost every beatstick.

[Runestar]

Healer is a prepared caster eh?
Use Sanctified Spells on the healer side (yay class-independent spells).

I thought healer was like the sorc, he could cast any spells he knows spontaneously? Though I always felt they should automatically be able to cast any spell they know from their spell list...

[Stratovarius]

Nope, Healer is a prep caster. Sanctified spells it is.

Updated the builds a few posts up.

[Endarire]

Mystic Theurge requires 6 ranks in 2 skills.  Unless you're using some trickery unknown to me, you can enter MT at level 4 at soonest.

[SorO_Lost]

Code: [Select]

Level  Classes              Skills Needed   Skills                          Feats
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1      Healer 1                             4 (Sur 4, Arc 4, Rel 4, Nat 4)  Educated (ECS), Earth Sense (Murky Eyed), Earth Spell (Noncombatant)
2      Warmage 1                            1 (Arc, Rel)
3      Mystic Theurge 1     Arc 6, Rel 6    1 (Arc, Rel)                    Heighten Spell
Requirements:

• Mystic Theurge - Arcana 6, Religion 6

Am I missing a huge sign here? MT wants 6 ranks in a skill and you are using the first level of MT to pick up the last skill rank needed to qualify to take MT in the first place.[/list]