Author Topic: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh  (Read 15924 times)

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Peaboo

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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2009, 03:39:15 AM »
I'm at work, so I can't listen- but tell me...

Did the intervention work? I Josh a super nice guy now?  :D

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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2009, 05:47:09 AM »
I will point out that "Bad Boys" is used ironically

The entire episode is intended as humor, so I don't get the masturbatory angle.  It might not be funny enough, but that is a failure of content and execution rather than intent.

Given the complexity of the project it came out pretty good. 

It has its moments and ultimately it is one of the funniest bits in gaming podcasting simply because there is so little actual humor in gaming podcasting.

And the only way we'll get better is to work at it.
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Talen Lee

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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2009, 06:10:17 AM »
You of course, being a perfectly unbiased source to evaluate such things.

The project being complex excuses it from not being funny?

It smacks of people who know one another relating anecdotes, badly, and pausing for applause from the audience. It is you and your mates talking to one another about how cool you all are, verbally wanking one another off and then posting it for the world to see, then saying it's the funniest things in gaming podcasting. It is vainglorious wank at its most distilled, and that it's entirely about a self-professed egomaniac who then goes on to laud the piece for its brilliance should say everything a curious reviewer should need to know.

Still, here's to better stuff.

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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2009, 10:55:57 AM »
Well, since dissent is the purpose of boards, I dissent with Zeke.  Talen- that was of no use whatsoever.  Yes, I would've preferred if you had not posted at all.  Talk about masturbatory- your insults were not criticism, they were not feedback, they served only to stroke your own ego and set yourself on a multi-syllabic, sanctimonious pedestal. 

There is nothing constructive in it.  You don't like our bonus content.  Got it.  Heard you loud and clear the first time.  No matter what we put out that is bonus you will rip it apart.  I know this.  It still doesn't help in the least.

This is harsh because I'm treating your post like a blog post, not a response in an interactive forum.  I see it analogous to a movie critique absolutely slamming a low budget indie flick for not having amazing Hollywood special effects. 

Dishing it out because I know you can take it. 
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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2009, 11:12:52 AM »
One thing I do think is worth underlining, which I did in my criticism, is this my buddies effect you have going on with the people you podcast with and the people you meet at cons. I ain't going to GenCon. Don't think I ever can. Live in a different country. You guys consistantly lean on the stick of 'You had to be there' buddy-ness. When you extract from the situation that you guys all know each other and listen to the jokes, it's... the same thing, over and over again, because you all seemed to derive the jokes from the same basic source. I'm going to assume it was Josh, or that you guys just cross-pollinate to the point of becoming generic.

And you could put out bonus content that I enjoy. You just haven't. I don't dislike it 'because it's bonus', I dislike it because it's badly done. This whole bonus piece was a joke, something designed to be funny, right? I didn't find it funny. I myself said I could have served to phrase it better, or, better yet not bother, because you have cemented in my mind the idea that there are some topics on which this podcast will not budge, most of which being the humour you guys choose to use. Meg, the real irony is that you're agreeing with me. I shouldn't have posted that that way.

I could go on - about whether or not it was a great subject to tackle - but I'm not sure what the point would be at this point.

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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2009, 11:42:17 AM »
Meg, the real irony is that you're agreeing with me. I shouldn't have posted that that way.
I don't think that is irony at all- I said that I agreed you shouldn't have posted and said I was dissenting with Zeke. 

And I disagree with the "same joke" thing.  This was something completely different.  You didn't like it- got it.  We've had an insane amount of feedback that was positive.  One person insulting it doesn't help improve at all- doesn't give any other ideas as to other things to do, no feedback as to specifics, gives nothing constructive at all. 

The irony is that you've said in the last couple of bonus content threads* "you shouldn't have put that out, you should've just said "and we're out!" and cut the show off"--- well, you should've just posted "didn't like it" and cut the rant off. 
* Meg volleys ball back to Talen

*Edited because I want to make it clear that I love having you here and you have offered amazing feedback in the past and I usually look to your posts with anticipation of the forthcoming edification.  I'm just talking about the last couple with this.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 11:44:34 AM by Meg »
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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2009, 12:41:49 PM »
*shakes head* I think the joke crossed the international punchline with that one, Meg.

"This is the thirty-second show of Brilliant Gameologists..."

"This is the thirty second show of Brilliant Gameologists..."

Just put a pause, the dead air, then come back. I thought that it was clever. Of course, that's not all that meaningful, and the opportunity for the joke has passed, though I suppose you could do it on the forty-second episode which would probably only be funny to ... well, nobody now that I've so thoroughly dissected the frog.

(Final dissection. The joke would be an audio pun between the numeric '42nd' and the literal 'forty seconds long'.)

Now, on to the rest of the comment: Are you suggesting that because I don't enjoy what you did, I should just keep my opinion to myself because there's Lots Of Positive Feedback? C'mon. I don't know what other people think of it and I don't think that I should really be phased on that. I think that the podcast, in general, was repeating the same joke over and over with the same generic turns of phrase. As far as your specific praise goes, how useful was it? 'More of this' doesn't suggest anything new, either, it's in fact, the exact opposite of suggesting something new. It's not even constructive, it's just confirmation. It's encouraging, sure, it's sure as hell nice, and I might be a bit less of a bitter shell if I got more pats on the back and fewer kicks in the ass, but I didn't have that luxury and now I'm inflicting myself on the world around me.

I reject your premise that I should not have posted at all. I made an attempt to listen, posted my feedback, got something about the timing out there. Then I listened to the whole thing as an exercise in doing so for the sake of the podcast (because I want to contribute to the show in however minor a way I can, and I want to get back to the point where I looked forward to new shows), and shot from the lip. I then noted that I shouldn't have said it in that way, then went on to say I stand by my criticisms, which are: You repeat the same joke too many times and not in enough interesting ways, the comic timing was off, and this entire piece feels so personality-driven that it failed to connect to me, leaving me the impression that I'd only get the jokes if I'd been around at Gen-con.

Furthermore, constructive criticism is not constructive because it builds for you, it's constructive because it indicates to you - when taken as a whole - what you did well and what you did not. If you have a billion people saying it's great and one person saying it's shit, you can probably take that metric and consider how far that one person's opinion reaches. Of course, that's the exact same metric you could use for World of Darkness, which you might note, Josh hates with a passion despite its commercial success reaching thousands and thousands of gamers. You are the Brilliant Gameologists, I am a forum dickhead with an opinion. It is not up to me to write for you, and if it was, I doubt it would satisfy any of you. I have suggested new things for the show in the past and I wait eagerly to see if you ever decide to touch on them, and instead see the show mostly focusing on things I don't feel to be that enjoyable to listen to or that useful to share with my friends or gaming group. Such is life. Constructive criticism can come in two basic flavours, the technical (where you have listened to things I say and I thank you for them, as does my download limit) and the content-driven (where we seem to differ pretty wildly). I can't tell you how to make a thirty-minute asshole joke funnier without killing the joke. That's about your choice of executing the content. And quite frankly, since you guys spent thirty minutes saying 'Here are podcasts we like and Josh is an unrepentent jerk,' I don't think you can really take issue with me wasting a scant paragraph of board space being just about as wasteful with the couching of my opinion.

The irony is, I have to present my opinion to you well, otherwise you won't respect it. The same is not true in reverse, because your podcast reaches thousands of people and I'm only talking to one. And even then I don't think I should have phrased it that way.

Finally, the real reason I think this whole piece flew foul for me is best explained thus: The day my grandmother dies, I'm not going to my dad to make a joke about moms dying. This is roughly how I feel about making a thirty-minute joke about Josh being a jerk. Especially when you then wave it under the banner of 'Oh, it's all okay, srs bzns.'

So hey, here, hit me, make me put my money where my mouth is. Make me burn some of this creativity I've got resting under my fingernails. What do you, Zeke, or Josh want from me?

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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2009, 01:32:05 PM »
Are you suggesting that because I don't enjoy what you did, I should just keep my opinion to myself because there's Lots Of Positive Feedback? C'mon.
 

Absolutely not and I never implied that to be the case.  My point is that I love feedback- I welcome constructive criticism.  I adore suggestions.  Pointless insults does nothing to help.  There was nothing constructive in any of your post.  I didn't get a single useful tidbit from it.  All I see is "hated it.  (insults my mother) Hated it.  (Why are you guys even podcasting?) HATED it. (You smell funny) Ha-ah-ted it.  Ha... wait for it...ted it." 

Empty insults is just as useless as empty praise.  It gives us a basic measure of how well it went over, so yes, right now you are measured the same as "good job!" whereas constructive feedback is worth the same as dozens and dozens of "atta boy!"s. 

I reject your premise that I should not have posted at all. I made an attempt to listen, posted my feedback, got something about the timing out there. Then I listened to the whole thing as an exercise in doing so for the sake of the podcast (because I want to contribute to the show in however minor a way I can, and I want to get back to the point where I looked forward to new shows), and shot from the lip.

I said that you should've just said "Hated it" and left it at that.  The not posting at all was just referring back to what you said. 

And I'm responding in this way because I believe you want to contribute.  I want you to contribute.  My feedback to you is that this wasn't contributing.  It's doing much more damage than good. 

You repeat the same joke too many times and not in enough interesting ways, the comic timing was off, and this entire piece feels so personality-driven that it failed to connect to me, leaving me the impression that I'd only get the jokes if I'd been around at Gen-con.

I don't agree with this.  Whereas I do feel there have been times we've repeated the same joke too many times, I don't believe this was the case here.  I don't know how it could've been.  This wasn't an episode.  This wasn't our episode.  This wasn't even our idea, though we jumped all over it when it was suggested.  Except for the "letters" which were recorded completely in isolation with zero knowledge as to what anyone else was doing and an outline, there was no script.  These are people we only really interact with in public arenas.  I don't know how the same jokes could've been coming from so many (essentially) strangers. 

I also think your perception of this being an "in joke from GenCon" is misguided and held because you've just decided that what it should be.  None of us have ever met Rob from the Bear Swarm.  Adam from the Podgecast wasn't at GenCon last year.  I met him at DragonCon in September but Josh and Zeke still haven't (been in the same room as him but never really met him).  We did meet Rob from Accidental Survivors at GenCon though didn't spend a ton of time with him (wait- no- Zeke did). 

This entire project was entirely based on public personas, nothing personal at all.  It is based on each respective podcast, our admiration for each other's professional work, and twitter.  My favorite podcast ever, and what I believe to be the funniest podcast ever created, was formed based on 3 strangers interacting on twitter and someone saying "you 3 are pretty funny.  You should podcast or something".  So it is a valid, real means to exploring personalities and humor. 

Finally, the real reason I think this whole piece flew foul for me is best explained thus: The day my grandmother dies, I'm not going to my dad to make a joke about moms dying. This is roughly how I feel about making a thirty-minute joke about Josh being a jerk. Especially when you then wave it under the banner of 'Oh, it's all okay, srs bzns.'
This is good feedback- I'm sorry the point was missed and we should clarify in a future episode.  This was a way of exploring an actual problem. 

One of my favorite Scrubs moments is when Elliot tells a patient her most embarrassing moment as a preteen was going to the bathroom at a local roller-rink but got her pants stuck around her ankles and rolled, squatting, bare assed out into the public area and then started screaming so the music cut off and everyone saw her.  Her response was to show up to school the next day in roller skates. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again- Josh is an asshole and we are actually trying to help curb that to some degree and funnel it into more constructive purposes.  He's also brilliant and funny as hell and I want that side of his personality to shine a bit brighter.  So that is our roller skating issue.  Should we just quit and mope?  Hells no.  We're laughing at ourselves, embracing it, and working on getting better.  I hope this continues- it's so much healthier to go to another podcast and say, "Dude!  That doesn't work!  Let's draw attention to it and then begin to heal it."

So hey, here, hit me, make me put my money where my mouth is. Make me burn some of this creativity I've got resting under my fingernails. What do you, Zeke, or Josh want from me?
I don't have an answer to that yet, but I will.  There are simply too many possibilities.  You have too much to offer to not take you up on that. 
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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2009, 03:58:42 PM »
Hopefully my input will be helpful, and not just negative, but I didn't really like it either.  I tried to, I really wanted to, but I didn't find it funny.

There were really two reasons why.  First off, the faux-serious tone of voice that everyone was using really put me off.  Had it been played straight, it would probably have been funnier for me.  You guys aren't actors, so I think it works better for you to keep things in normal tones - when you veer off into TRYING as opposed to being natural in front of the mic it just feels uncomfortable.

My second problem, and this really echoes Talen's criticism, was the attempt to joke about Josh being an asshole.  A lot of people think it's funny to be a dick, and when I'm with my good friends who know that I'm kidding, it's hilarious to be a jerk.  Unfortunately, actually being a dick to strangers ISN'T funny to me, although for a lot of people it is.

I get the metaphor about the Scrubs episode, but I think in this case it's a bit off.  The difference is that Elliot was horribly embarrassed about what happened, so to deal with it she made a point to show everyone that she got the joke, and wasn't going to be embarrassed about it.

That's very different from being a jerk.  If Elliot had called a bunch of people faggots at the skating rink, and then worn a gay pride t-shirt to school the next day to "get it out in the open", that wouldn't be funny, that'd be compounding the asshole.  And that's what I thought this episode really did.  No one was intervening here.  Everyone was saying, in essence, "Boy that Josh is an asshole.  Isn't it funny!  Let's go kill a hooker!"

In fact, no, it's not funny.  Not with strangers.
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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2009, 04:39:59 PM »
*goes back to add something constructive since her first post was pretty much "hated it"*

So, this wasn't my cup of tea humor-wise, but really no biggie since most of the stuff you guys put out makes my cup runneth over in the humor department.

Aside from the humor which is simply personal preference, what I disliked is what I dislike about the vast majority of SNL skits...the length. It just seemed to go on longer than necessary to make the point/joke.

I do want to say that considering you guys were using Skype to record with I was pretty impressed with the sound quality. Our gaming group games over Skype and its not always cooperative and takes some getting used to.
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Shoggoth

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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2009, 04:54:32 PM »
I agree with Kai about the quality.  For being over Skype, it sounded REALLY good.  I've heard podcasts recorded in a quiet room that sounded much less intelligible than that.
Still came that eldritch, mocking cry - "Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!" and at last we remembered that the demoniac Shoggoths...had no voice save the imitated accents of their bygone masters.

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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2009, 04:57:23 PM »
Adam recorded it and I did all of the editing and production work.  I spent about twice as long editing this as I do any of our normal episodes to get the quality decent.  And then threw the whole thing away and started over.  It took so long. 

To get this constructive again- we do want to continue to do projects-- not neccessarily interventions, but something.  What cross podcast things that are personality/ humor based would you guys see working? 
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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2009, 05:09:42 PM »
I do need to pull aside the curtain for a second and point out that me being a jerk is affected.  I do it on purpose to be funny. You guys get that, right? 

The show was far from perfect.  I have a giant list of things to improve. But I never could have made the list without doing the show. 

Again this is wild country here.  Genuinely funny scripted gaming humor is mostly non existent.
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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2009, 05:21:28 PM »
Adam recorded it and I did all of the editing and production work.  I spent about twice as long editing this as I do any of our normal episodes to get the quality decent.  And then threw the whole thing away and started over.  It took so long. 

Well, you did a great job.  I do audio editing and recording for the machinima projects that we work on, and getting vocal levels even and clean can be a nightmare.  I can only imagine doing it over a medium like Skype.

Quote
To get this constructive again- we do want to continue to do projects-- not neccessarily interventions, but something.  What cross podcast things that are personality/ humor based would you guys see working? 

That's a really good question.  The humor on the podcast is mostly you guys riffing, which works well most of the time because you know each other well and are clever people.  Scripted humor is a lot harder.  It requires a good script, a willingness to deviate from the script when necessary, the ability to read naturally, and usually multiple takes when you aren't a professional.  It's doable, and it's funnier than riffing when it's done right, but it's much harder.

Maybe you could do a multi-podcast round table, where each podcast takes an opposing ridiculous position and debate wildly about it?  I don't know.  If I can think of any other ideas I'll post them.
Still came that eldritch, mocking cry - "Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!" and at last we remembered that the demoniac Shoggoths...had no voice save the imitated accents of their bygone masters.

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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2009, 05:39:11 PM »
To get this constructive again- we do want to continue to do projects-- not neccessarily interventions, but something.  What cross podcast things that are personality/ humor based would you guys see working? 

Well obviously this worked for a lot of people, so I think you guys just have to go where inspiration strikes you and be prepared for some people to love it and some people not to.
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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2009, 05:41:49 PM »
I do need to pull aside the curtain for a second and point out that me being a jerk is affected.  I do it on purpose to be funny. You guys get that, right?

I do get that on the podcast.  I don't get that on the boards.  I'd probably have found this very special episode a lot funnier if I had never come to the message boards and tried to debate you.

Quote
The show was far from perfect.  I have a giant list of things to improve. But I never could have made the list without doing the show. 

Well, sure.  In a lot of ways, it was a good show.  Technically and personality wise, it has everything going for it.  Everything is a learning curve.  I look at the first couple of machinimas that we produced and I just CRINGE.  We've learned so much in the last couple of years.  It's the same for everybody.

Quote
Again this is wild country here.  Genuinely funny scripted gaming humor is mostly non existent.

There's good scripted gaming humor out there, but it mostly only comes in two varieties:  being funny while talking about games (a la the BG podcast, TrapCast, etc.) and lampooning gaming stereotypes (The Gamers, KotDT, "I attack the Darkness").  I'm leaving out stuff like the Dragonlance animated film and the D&D movie because they aren't actually TRYING to be funny, they're just so terrible that you have to laugh at them.
Still came that eldritch, mocking cry - "Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!" and at last we remembered that the demoniac Shoggoths...had no voice save the imitated accents of their bygone masters.

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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2009, 05:43:13 PM »
To get this constructive again- we do want to continue to do projects-- not neccessarily interventions, but something.  What cross podcast things that are personality/ humor based would you guys see working? 

Well obviously this worked for a lot of people, so I think you guys just have to go where inspiration strikes you and be prepared for some people to love it and some people not to.

+1.  If most of the feedback has been positive, then feel free to ignore us, really.   ;)
Still came that eldritch, mocking cry - "Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!" and at last we remembered that the demoniac Shoggoths...had no voice save the imitated accents of their bygone masters.

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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2009, 07:43:54 PM »
Ah, mornings, what would I do without you. Probably enjoy life more.

*reads back* Meg, whether or not you agree what I brought up is a problem does not change the fact that the criticism was constructive. Whether or not you choose to act on what I offered is equally meaningless to the quality of the criticism. I didn't just say 'hated it.' I said 'Hated it, because.' If you didn't get that out of my posts, I don't really think I can do much for the discussion at this point.

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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2009, 11:40:41 PM »
And my point is that it is not constructive in the least.  It was one insult after another.  There was nothing to learn from, no suggestions for anything to do better, no tact, and nothing helpful about which is how I define constructive (I'm talking about your full post).  I can't know the full intention but it reads as if it is meant to hurt, not help, again making it deconstructive. 

I do not view insults as constructive.  Which is also where I feel Josh falls short on the boards.  He has a lot to offer, but start throwing insults in and any help goes out the window. 

If we were doing a Roast, Talen, you may be one of the first I ask to participate. 
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Re: A Very Special Episode: The Intervention of Josh
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2009, 11:42:31 PM »
I've boiled down what I said in that post three times now, and said that I shouldn't have said it in that way twice.