Author Topic: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?  (Read 4829 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« on: January 20, 2009, 12:00:38 PM »
As we all know, that line of spells becomes incredibly good with even a little CL advancement, essentially auto killing everything not of that alignment in range, or at least taking it out long enough to allow you to finish the job as your leisure.

So I was thinking about how to make this sort of thing more usable without being horrifically broken, and then I remembered another spell that is semi related. Specifically I'm thinking of Dismissal mechanics.

Quote

If the Blasphemy line allowed a save modified by the difference between the user's CL and the target's HD like Dismissal does against whatever effect it would have it wouldn't be an auto kill anymore. Massive disparities still come pretty close to that, which is why this would probably have to be paired with a CL cap on staves similar to what casters normally get. 'You cannot emulate a CL higher than you could actually cast regardless of the check.' would fix the CL 9,001 issue, while still allowing for emulation of the auto scale staff mechanic.

Quote

It's still not perfect but is a significant improvement. The main issue left is that something with HD 10 higher (say, any half fiend monster really) is still forcing an AoE save or die with a jacked up save DC. Maybe the HD based lines should be changed to degrees of failure?

Quote
Equal to caster level     Dazed
Up to caster level -1    Weakened, dazed
Up to caster level -5    Paralyzed, weakened, dazed
Up to caster level -10    Killed, paralyzed, weakened, dazed

Except instead of being based on the targets HD relative to your CL (which would give double resistance basically) it's based on how much you failed the save?

So this hypothetical half fiend whatever with 10 HD on you is forcing you to save at a DC 10 higher than normal, with the effect dependent on how bad you fail the save. So if you fail by 10 or more, you still die. Only issue is this results in an odd mechanic as written where passing the save still renders you dazed 1 round, unless you actually exceed the DC.

This however is easy to fix, and gives us the final version.

Quote

The reason why the +1 on the DC is there is because it's easier to remember than passing the save exactly, and still being dazed for one round. The other degrees of failure account for this +1, so it's not actually working any better, just smoother.

Feedback, anyone?
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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RobbyPants

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2009, 12:46:08 PM »
Well, it certainly takes out the auto-kill part.

If CL were controlled better, this might not be that necessary.  I think the intent of the spell is good.  It's just that the execution is so poor because you can pimp your CL so high.

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Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
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I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
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Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2009, 01:16:07 PM »
Well, it certainly takes out the auto-kill part.

If CL were controlled better, this might not be that necessary.  I think the intent of the spell is good.  It's just that the execution is so poor because you can pimp your CL so high.



When I wrote this, I was primarily thinking of stuff like Half Fiends, with their CL = HD and high HD, unlike normal outsiders. For that matter, about the only reason outsiders have so few HD is because it would break spells like this. PC usage is certainly broken as well, but 'random half fiend whatever' is a bit more practical than 'PC with multiple CL boosts'. Also, since monsters tend to do better than 1:1 CR:HD ratios spells like this work better against the party than for it.

Aside from not being an auto kill anymore obviously, anything else?
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2009, 01:19:16 PM »
A yes, the lovely Half-Fiend Tarrasque :P

But seriously, doesn't look half bad at all, Sunic, nice work :)

 
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Midnight_v

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2009, 09:06:56 PM »
My oh my what will the Balors do now?  :(
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veekie

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2009, 09:22:41 PM »
Looks like it works as advertised, and I personally like the 'degrees of failing a save' thing myself.

Save result    Effect
Failed save    Dazed
Failed save by >2    Weakened
Failed save by >5    Paralyzed
Failed save by >11    Killed

Would have been how I'd have phrased it myself though. But thats just me.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2009, 09:35:36 PM »
I would like to see Somthing done to them on a failed save.

I mean thats the allure of many spells.
You save and bad shit happens to you anyway.
...Not that this isn't good...
I'm just saying.
Lets say blasphemy was a 10 on a power scale of 1-10.
I'm thinking this is an 8?
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2009, 11:16:04 AM »
You mean passed save. So... what then? If you still get dazed for a round you still get daze juggled. If you still get weakened you still either have your melee gimped, or get weighed down by your own gear. Possibly both. I don't think I even need to go into paralysis and death to make my point.

Most of the good Will spells are Will negates, and this would qualify as such. Sure, I could make up some bullshit trivial effect, but why bother?
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2009, 11:38:43 AM »
The nice thing is that several skills already use this mechanic to a lesser degree.  Think about all the times where something worse happens if you fail a skill by five or more.

Sunic, I do have to agree that this is a fairly good fix.  It should hopefully lessen the disparity of hit dice/caster level vs the target's hit dice.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2009, 04:40:53 PM »
Quote
Sure, I could make up some bullshit trivial effect, but why bother?
  :D
Something about this makes me smile. You're right of course I did expect a bullshit trivial effect.
*Shrug*
"We have so many bullshit trivial effects. Why not use them!"
How bout. . .  uhm...

Deafened. Even on a successful save. 3 rounds.
Now you can be blasphemy juggled... to deaf. :lmao

(and if you get pissed because of that suggestion... you're missing the levity. . . Perhaps i'm not giving this enough gravity)

Seriously though all fuckery aside the fix is pretty much spot on, bro. Still usable, still spamable, not an instawin anymore. Success.

I like it because... if you really want to focus you're life around it. You can still fucking kill people with it consistently, but its a Spell now unbroken. Which is good.
Maybe we should add it to the Rebalance Compendium. With your permission Sunic. Robby?
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2009, 07:34:11 PM »
Haven't seen this compendium. Mostly because I stopped following it due to ElennFAIL.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Runestar

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 10:26:20 AM »
My oh my what will the Balors do now?  :(
Pray for natural 20s from their vorpal longswords?  :smirk
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Midnight_v

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2009, 10:39:18 AM »
My oh my what will the Balors do now?  :(
Pray for natural 20s from their vorpal longswords?  :smirk
:lmao
Balors pray?
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2009, 11:32:23 AM »
My oh my what will the Balors do now?  :(
Pray for natural 20s from their vorpal longswords?  :smirk
:lmao
Balors pray?

To themselves. Or maybe their Demon Lords. Still, given that the dazelock while minions attack strategy takes two rounds to begin, I can't see them using it that often.
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 11:40:58 AM »
Maybe we should add it to the Rebalance Compendium. With your permission Sunic. Robby?
Yeah, I think it'd be a good thing to include.

You cool with that Sunic?

Haven't seen this compendium. Mostly because I stopped following it due to ElennFAIL.
If you're interested, there's a link in my sig.  It's not complete yet, but it has the "up to date" information from the other seven threads, as well as links to all of them.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2009, 04:00:56 PM »
A very quick glance at that revealed Knock is apparently being nerfed? What kinda dumbass wizard casts Knock, with or without a nerf? (not to mention dumbass wizard = oxymoron)

Adamantine bolt = bypass any lock at will, 60.1 gold.

Seriously, knock off the knock nerf.

As for adding this, that's fine as long as you give credit and fu. :P
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2009, 06:42:41 PM »
They nerfed knock? ... W...T...F...?
Robby some of those guys you listened to have been morons.  :nonono
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RobbyPants

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2009, 09:46:25 AM »
Okay Sunic, I'll copy it and give you credit. + fu for the good idea.

____

I don't want to derail this thread too badly, so I'll be brief.

The reasoning started with spells like True Seeing and Freedom of Movement, which are basically auto-wins for their situations.  Spells like this end up making skills useless.  The thought was to make them into skill boosters.  Knock was one of the other spells brought up later.  The idea is it could be a buff for the rogue (or anyone else in a rogue's absense), but at least it wouldn't replace the rogue.

The adamantine bolt makes sense in many cases, although not all.  Obviously, a trapped lock would still be dangerous.  Also, if you destroy the locking mechanism, you might render the actual bolt locking the door permanently stuck shut.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2009, 11:32:20 AM »
Okay Sunic, I'll copy it and give you credit. + fu for the good idea.

____

I don't want to derail this thread too badly, so I'll be brief.

The reasoning started with spells like True Seeing and Freedom of Movement, which are basically auto-wins for their situations.  Spells like this end up making skills useless.  The thought was to make them into skill boosters.  Knock was one of the other spells brought up later.  The idea is it could be a buff for the rogue (or anyone else in a rogue's absense), but at least it wouldn't replace the rogue.

The adamantine bolt makes sense in many cases, although not all.  Obviously, a trapped lock would still be dangerous.  Also, if you destroy the locking mechanism, you might render the actual bolt locking the door permanently stuck shut.
Thats terrible. That means were saying essentially "You *MUST* Have a rogue then.
I believe the we need spell alternatives to spells.
Freedom of movement... just gernerally usefull but to keep certain critters  from grapple killing you instantly the need obtion should be there
Trueseeing doesn't obviate skills. It counters SPELLS, true seeing has what to do with hide.
There is the Trapbreaker variant barbarian, but I'm sure people weren't thinking of that when they decided to get rid of "utility"
...
Here's the deal. It is a piss poor design considering the sheer bulk of classes we have to get rid of things like KNOCK
People who suggest things like that are attempting to bring the old rubric:
Warrior, Healer,Mage, thief.
Which is bullshit.
Because there are parties that DON"T have a rouge they have a ... scout or a druid, or a swordsage, or binder. . . so basically that idea dictates "We want you to have a rogue in your party". Which... I mean what if you don't?
Booo!
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

RobbyPants

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Re: Potential fix for Blasphemy and company?
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2009, 11:45:09 AM »
I'll respond in my Spells thread so I don't derail this one.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]