Author Topic: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp  (Read 5297 times)

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xeno121

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optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« on: January 18, 2009, 08:01:23 AM »
I'm trying to optimize a sorcerer gish.  I read the handbook over at the 339 and wanted the expert advice of the bg.
10th level.

Thinking sorc6/sb4

I figure I start as 6 srocerer using the stalwart sorcerer variant (compete mage).  I thought about battle sorcerer too but losing a spell slot for +1 bab doesn't seem like a good trade.

Stat roll is 18, 16, 16, 14, 14, 10

I don't know if I'll need the boots of battledancing(think those are the ones) that replace str with cha after 10' of movement.

The DM lets us buy stat tomes individually and they stack and cost less.  2 points is 5k or around there.

Victory point bonus feats, I currently have 2 to spend. 

TWF or a 2H weapon?  I'll mainly be spring attacking but iirc there is a feta that stacks with bounding assault that lets you hit with an offhand weapon.  And I can eventually move and full attack or full attack then move. 

I should have around 60k for gear and stat bumps. 

Any help would be appreciated.  Also abjchamp vs swiftblade for lower level.
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

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ninjarabbit

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2009, 10:32:40 AM »
The thing with the abjurant champion is that it requires a BAB of 5 so a sorcerer would have to wait until level 10 without multiclassing or being a battlesorcerer.

I say go 2H weapon, twf is feat intensive and needs additional sources of damage like sneak attack and elemental weapons to be effective while a 2h weapon only really needs power attack.

An interesting idea is to see if your DM will allow the battlesorcerer and stalwart sorcerer variants to stack, you wouldn't lose anything that a normal battlesorcerer doesn't lose until CL 20 and you'd gain an extra MWP and 2 hps/sorcerer level. be a dragonborn gold dwarf or gnome and you'll put a barbarian to shame with your hps and dwarves have a sorcerer racial subsitution that gives you bonus spells slots based on your con modifier in Races of Stone.

xeno121

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2009, 10:39:51 AM »
Swiftblade is full BAB, So with 6 levels to qualify I'd have 3BAB(4 with battle sorcerer) then I'd only need 1 swiftblade level to qualify.

Now which is better, wizard or sorcerer.  I'm mainly going to be melee, spring attacking wraith strike arcane striking with power attack.  Sorcerer gets more spells but if I use battle sorcerer I lose 1 spell slot a level which seems like a bad tradeoff.

Also which PrC should I prioritize, Abjurant Champion or the Swiftblade?
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

RobbyPants

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2009, 11:11:11 AM »
TWF or a 2H weapon?  I'll mainly be spring attacking but iirc there is a feta that stacks with bounding assault that lets you hit with an offhand weapon.  And I can eventually move and full attack or full attack then move. 
Another reason to pick 2H weapon: somatic components.

Unless you blow a feat or come up with something else, you won't be able to cast a spell with a somatic component (most of them) with a weapon in each hand.  Using a single two-hander, however, you can simply hold it in one hand (free action), cast your spell, and then grab it with your second hand again (free action).

That, and I agree that you'll get a lot more damage with a two-hander than TWF.  You don't have the bonus damage needed to make TWF worth while.  I suppose if you took Arcane Strike, you might be able to build a case...
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2009, 11:13:07 AM »
Go with a Loredrake Dragonwrought Desert Kobold, White Dragonspawn wit LA buyback as well if you can get it past your DM ;)

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xeno121

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2009, 11:22:02 AM »
Not gonna happen on that last one.  Gonna have to be human or maybe Elf.  TWF was for Arcane Strike which I plan on taking but I don't know where to put stat points and I have 4 +2 stat bumps I can put on any of my stats in addition to racial mods, etc. but they count toward the +5 max on inherent from item boosts. 

I'm trying to figure out which is better between wizard and sorcerer.  And where to put stats. 

Here's a build I jacked from the Handbook which I think might work but would a sorcerers ability to cast haste more often work better?

Gray Elf

28 Point Buy
Str: 14 (12 GE) (12th = 13)
Dex: 14 (16 GE)
Con: 14 (12 GE)
Int: 16 (18 GE) (4th, 8th, 16th, 20th = 22)
Wis: 8
Chr: 8

1: Wizard 1: Summon Familiar, Generalist Wizardry (ESL 1), Scribe Scroll, Dodge
2. Wizard 2:
3: Wizard 3: Natural Link (ESL 3), Mobility
4: Wizard 4:
5: Wizard 5: MM: Empower Spell or Extend Spell
6: Wizard 6: Practiced Spellcaster
7: Swiftblade 1: Spring Attack, Swift Surge +1/0ft.
8: Swiftblade 2: Blurred Alacrity
9: Swiftblade 3: Sudden Casting, Arcane Strike
10: Swiftblade 4: Arcane Reflexes, Swift Surge +1/10ft.
11: Swiftblade 5: Evasive Celerity
12: Swiftblade 6: Fortified Hustle, Power Attack
13: Swiftblade 7: Bounding Assault
14: Swiftblade 8: Diligent Rapidity
15: Swiftblade 9: Perpetual options, Combat Casting
16: Abjurant Champion 1: Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration
17: Abjurant Champion 2: Swift Abjuration
18: Abjurant Champion 3: MM: Quicken or Twin Spell
19: Abjurant Champion 4: Arcane Boost
20: Abjurant Champion 5: Martial Arcanist

Initiative: +17 (Dex +3, +6 Arcane Reflexes, Hummingbird Familiar +4 (+8 Natural Link))

BAB: +17/+12/+7

Average Hit Points: 96
(4, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 6, 5, 6, 5, 6 + 20 Con) You will definitely need a CON boosting magic item here.

Base Saves:
Fort: 8 (7 Base (2W, 3S, AC1), +1 Con)
Reflex: 12 (9 Base (2W, 6S, AC1), +3 Dex)
Will: 14 (15 Base (5W, 6S, AC4), -1 Wis)

ACL: As 17th level wizard: 9th Level Spells (-3 CL from Swiftblade)

CL: 20 (Practiced Spellcaster)

Spells/Day:
4///6, 6, 5, 5, 5, 5, 3, 2, 1

Base Movement: 40ft.

Skill Points: 170
(W1=24, W2-6=30, S1=8, S2-9=72, AC1-4=28, AC5=8)

Ranks
1: Wizard 1: Concentration 4, Craft (X) 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Spellcraft 4, Spot 2 (4), Tumble 2 (4)
2: Wizard 2: Concentration 5, Craft (X) 5, Knowledge (Arcana) 5, Spellcraft 5, Spot 2.5 (5), Tumble 2.5 (5)
3: Wizard 3: Concentration 6, Craft (X) 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 6, Spellcraft 6, Spot 3 (6), Tumble 3 (6),
4: Wizard 4: Concentration 7, Craft (X) 7, Knowledge (Arcana) 7, Spellcraft 7, Spot 3.5 (7), Tumble 3.5 (7)
5: Wizard 5: Concentration 8, Craft (X) 8, Knowledge (Arcana) 8, Spellcraft 8, Spot 4 (8), Tumble 4 (8)
6: Wizard 6: Concentration 9, Craft (X) 9, Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Spellcraft 9, Spot 4.5 (9), Tumble 4.5 (9)
7: Swiftblade 1: Concentration 10, Craft (X) 10, Jump 1, Knowledge (Arcana) 10, Listen 1, Spot 5.5 (10), Spellcraft 10, Tumble 5.5 (10)
8: Swiftblade 2: Balance 1, Concentration 11, Craft (X) 11, Jump 2, Knowledge (Arcana) 11, Listen 2, Spot 6.5 (11), Spellcraft 11, Tumble 6.5 (11)
9: Swiftblade 3: Balance 2, Concentration 12, Craft (X) 12, Jump 3, Knowledge (Arcana) 12, Listen 3, Spot 7.5 (12), Spellcraft 12, Tumble 7.5 (12)
10: Swiftblade 4: Balance 3, Concentration 13, Craft (X) 13, Jump 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 13, Listen 4, Spot 8.5 (13), Spellcraft 13, Tumble 8.5 (13)
11: Swiftblade 5: Balance 4, Concentration 14, Craft (X) 14, Jump 5, Knowledge (Arcana) 14, Listen 5, Spot 9.5 (14), Spellcraft 14, Tumble 9.5 (14)
12: Swiftblade 6: Balance 5, Concentration 15, Craft (X) 15, Jump 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 15, Listen 6, Spot 10.5 (15), Spellcraft 15, Tumble 10.5 (15)
13: Swiftblade 7: Balance 6, Concentration 16, Craft (X) 16, Jump 7, Knowledge (Arcana) 16, Listen 7, Spot 11.5 (16), Spellcraft 16, Tumble 11.5 (16)
14: Swiftblade 8: Balance 7, Concentration 17, Craft (X) 17, Jump 8, Knowledge (Arcana) 17, Listen 8, Spot 12.5 (17), Spellcraft 17, Tumble 12.5 (17)
15: Swiftblade 9: Balance 8, Concentration 18, Craft (X) 18, Jump 9, Knowledge (Arcana) 18, Listen 9, Spot 13.5 (18), Spellcraft 18, Tumble 13.5 (18)
16: Abjurant Champion 1: Concentration 19, Craft (X) 19, Jump 10, Knowledge (Arcana) 19, Spellcraft 19, Spot 14 (19) Tumble 14 (19)
17: Abjurant Champion 2: Concentration 20, Craft (X) 20, Jump 11, Knowledge (Arcana) 20, Spellcraft 20, Spot 14.5 (20) Tumble 14.5 (20)
18: Abjurant Champion 3: Concentration 21, Craft (X) 21, Jump 12, Knowledge (Arcana) 21, Spellcraft 21, Spot 15 (21) Tumble 15 (21)
19: Abjurant Champion 4: Concentration 22, Craft (X) 22, Jump 13, Knowledge (Arcana) 22, Spellcraft 22, Spot 15.5 (22) Tumble 15.5 (22)
20: Abjurant Champion 5: Concentration 23, Craft (X) 23, Jump 14, Knowledge (Arcana) 23, Spellcraft 23, Spot 16 (23) Swim 1, Tumble 16 (23)

Summary of Ranks

Balance 8
Concentration 23
Craft (X) 23
Jump 14
Knowledge (Arcana) 23
Listen 9
Spellcraft 23
Spot 16
Swim 1
Tumble 16

Racial Abilities:
Gray Elf
+2 Intelligence, -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution
Medium Size
30ft base speed
Immunity to magic sleep effects, +2 racial saves to enchantment spells and effects
Low-Light Vision: Twice as far as human
Weapon Proficiency: Longsword, rapier, longbow, and shortbow
+2 Listen, Search, and Spot checks
Search for secret or concealed doors within passing of 5ft
Languages: Common and Elven
Favored Class: Wizard
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

ninjarabbit

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2009, 11:32:29 AM »
I'd probably go focused specialist: transmuter instead of elven generalist. You'll get 17 extra spell slots over the course of your career and honestly how many enchantments and evocations do you really plan on casting.

I'd also take the otherworldly feat from PGtF if your DM will allow you to abuse alter self and polymorph.

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2009, 11:42:46 AM »
Conjurer might be nice as well for Abrupt Jaunt :)
Would cost you your familiar ofcourse...

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GawainBS

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2009, 11:57:56 AM »
+1 on ninjarabbit's comment, except go for a regular Specialist (Transmuter).
Wraithstrike and (Draconic) Polymorph are your best friends. Also, don't forgot the "Heart of xyz" spells from Complete Mage.
I posted a thread about (nearly) the exact same build. Maybe that has some useful things as well?

woodenbandman

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2009, 12:05:55 PM »
The Bite spells are my personal favorite. It's a level higher for a sorcerer than it is for a druid, but it's really awesome.

I actually prefer sorceror for gishes, because you usually need a fairly decent range of buffs but you don't know which you'll actually need. I'd go for a sorceror or bard/sublime chord(though SC blooms a little late), with versatile spellcaster, so you can have access to almost all of your spells on a regular basis.

A wizard is the most powerful, of course, but it's not the most immediately adaptable, and being able to immediately adapt is crucial for a gish build.

xeno121

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2009, 12:16:43 PM »
which book is versatile spellcaster in and what does it do?
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

GawainBS

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2009, 01:17:18 PM »

I actually prefer sorceror for gishes, because you usually need a fairly decent range of buffs but you don't know which you'll actually need. I'd go for a sorceror or bard/sublime chord(though SC blooms a little late), with versatile spellcaster, so you can have access to almost all of your spells on a regular basis.
 

That's a load of crap. Well, not that you prefer them. That can be true. ;) A decent gish knows what he'll need and prepare that. You need too many different spells to warrant spending a "Spell known" slot on each, since you'll probably only cast them once a day, or even less with the higher caster levels.

Versatile spellcaster is from Races of the Dragon.

xeno121

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2009, 01:33:52 PM »
I've decided to go human sorcerer, my only concern left is whether or not taking battle and stalwart sorcerer is worth it, losing 1 spell per day every level, 2 for the highest level, and 1 spell known per level worth it? 

Lose: above

Gain:
D8 HD vs d4 HD
+1/2 sorc level
+1 BAB
2 Martial prof.

Doesn't seem worth it to me though the HP is attractive as a tradeoff does +4 possible HP for 5 levels (1st is max) make a huge impact on my survival?

I may not be able to go Grey elf so I'm going to make a human sorc base. (Reasoning)

[And if there's a lot of typos I'm typing on my phone because the internet is having issues staying online :(  ]
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

GawainBS

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2009, 01:37:59 PM »
Well, going Sorcerer is bad enough, I really wouldn't make it any worse with going Battle Sorcerer. Stallwart Sorcerer is decent.

Vynar

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2009, 02:23:08 AM »
Don't Slippers of Battledancing not work with a 2hander? Just wondering since you mentioned them and I don't have my DMGII on me.

GawainBS

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2009, 08:26:26 AM »
Don't Slippers of Battledancing not work with a 2hander? Just wondering since you mentioned them and I don't have my DMGII on me.

IIRC, they're only for one-handed or light weapons. RAW, I think a onehander in two hands is doable.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2009, 02:31:30 PM »
I've decided to go human sorcerer, my only concern left is whether or not taking battle and stalwart sorcerer is worth it, losing 1 spell per day every level, 2 for the highest level, and 1 spell known per level worth it? 
It's not worth it. Just go with a regular sorcerer. Versatile Spellcasting is from Races of the Dragon, and is great. It lets you use two lower level spell slots to cast a spell of one level higher. It's only for spontaneous casters, though. Also, if you can use Dragon Magazine, there are items priced like Pearls of Power that can add a spell known to your list. I think they are called Knowstones.
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2009, 02:57:54 PM »
Memento Magica as well, in Complete Arcane IIRC...
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ChristopherGroves

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2009, 05:38:54 PM »
If you plan on arcane-striking then you want more attacks ... in general

PhaedrusXY

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Re: optimizing a sorcerer/swiftblade/abjchamp
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2009, 05:41:50 PM »
If you plan on arcane-striking then you want more attacks ... in general
It's pretty good for getting an attack bonus to Power Attack more with a 2-hander, also.
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