Can I Make a Class with 9th Level Spells, Full BAB, and Class Features Blow?

[bkdubs123]

The Wunderkind!

So, yeah, I'm definitely just goofing off here, but the idea is a class skeleton does not break a class. There are countless other factors that do that. Full BAB, decent HD, 4 skills per level, class features every level, and 9th level spellcasting with more spells per day than a Wizard?!?! BROKEN! Well... actually, it still sucks... or at least that's the goal. So, if someone can break this class I'd like to hear how, and what I can do to make it so it can't be broken. If anything is unclear let me know.

All class features that are unexplained are exactly as the listed ability was originally printed.

HD: d8

Saves: Good Fort, Poor Others

LV  Base Attack Bonus    Class Features                                         0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1.   +1                  Bonus Feat, Kiai Smite 1/enc, Supernatural Mage         5   3
2.   +2                  Lucky 1/day, Damage Reduction 1/--                      6   3
3.   +3                  Bonus Feat                                              6   4   2
4.   +4                  Trap Sense +1, Slowfall 20ft                            6   4   3
5.   +5                  Damage Reduction 2/--                                   7   4   3   2
6.   +6/+1               Bonus Feat                                              7   5   4   3
7.   +7/+2               Kiai Smite 2/enc, Slowfall 40ft                         7   5   4   3   2
8.   +8/+3               Damage Reduction 3/--                                   7   5   4   4   3
9.   +9/+4               Bonus Feat                                              7   5   5   4   3   2
10.  +10/+5              Trap Sense +2, Slowfall 60ft                            8   6   5   4   4   3
11.  +11/+6/+1           Damage Reduction 4/--                                   8   6   5   5   4   3   2
12.  +12/+7/+2           Bonus Feat                                              8   6   5   5   4   4   3
13.  +13/+8/+3           Kiai Smite 3/enc, Slowfall 80ft                         8   6   6   5   5   4   3   2
14.  +14/+9/+4           Damage Reduction 5/--                                   8   6   6   5   5   4   4   3
15.  +15/+10/5           Bonus Feat                                              8   7   6   6   5   5   4   3   2
16.  +16/+11/+6/+1       Trap Sense +3, Slowfall 100ft                           8   7   6   6   5   5   4   4   3
17.  +17/+12/+7/+2       Damage Reduction 6/--                                   9   7   6   6   6   5   5   4   3   2
18.  +18/+13/+8/+3       Bonus Feat                                              9   7   7   6   6   5   5   4   4   3
19.  +19/+14/+9/+4       Kiai Smite 4/enc, Slowfall (any distance)               9   7   7   6   6   6   5   5   4   3
20.  +20/+15/+10/+5      Damage Reduction 7/--, Frightful Presence, Fearless     9   7   7   7   6   6   5   5   4   4

Class Skills (4+Int per level): Appraise, Balance, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Forgery, Gather Information, Intimidate, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft

Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, no armor or shields.

Bonus Feats (Ex): Fighter feats. Wunderkind levels count as Fighter levels.

Supernatural Mage (Su): A Wunderkind utilizes supernatural abilities drawn from his Mage List. Beginning at first level a Wunderkind has access to all of the 1st level SuAs in his Mage List and must prepare them into Mage slots in the exact same way a Wizard prepares spells into his spell slots. A Wunderkind has a number of open Mage slots of a given level each day as given by the table above. After using a prepared SuA the slot it was prepared in becomes expended preventing the Wunderkind from using that specific SuA until it is prepared again. A Wunderkind may prepare the same SuA into more than one Mage slot in order to gain multiple uses of it. A Wunderkind has an effective caster level equal to his class level when using his SuAs in order to adjudicate their effects.

Unlike normal usage of supernatural abilities, the SuAs prepared into Mage Slots by a Wunderkind do not necessarily require a standard action, and may require components as spells. Any SuA on the Wunderkind's spell list which emulates a spell effect requires the same time to activate as the spell and the same components to activate as if the Wunderkind were casting the spell rather than employing a supernatural ability. SuAs used in this manner may still be activated inside areas of dead magic or antimagic.

A Wunderkind gains access to higher levels of SuAs at the same levels he gains the Mage slots to prepare them in.

The saving throw of a Wunderkind's SuAs is equal to 10 +1/2 Wunderkind level +the Wunderkind's Charisma modifier.

Fearless (Ex): A 20th level Wunderkind knows no fear, and is by now immune to fear effects of all types.

Mage List

[spoiler](All Cantrips)

1st - Alarm, Endure Elements, Shield, Mage Armor, Mount, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Burning Hands, Tenser's Floating Disk, Nystul's Magic Aura, Ventriloquism, Animate Rope, Erase, Jump

2nd - Obscure Object, Protection from Arrows, Summon Swarm, Daze Monster, Continual Flame, Flaming Sphere, Gust of Wind, Leomund's Trap, Magic Mouth, Misdirection, Darkvision, Pyrotechnics, Whispering Wind

3rd - Nondetection, Phantom Steed, Sepia Snake Sigil, Tongues, Heroism, Rage, Daylight, Fireball, Leomund's Tuny Hut, Lightning Bolt, Wind Wall, Illusory Script, Gentle Repose, Flame Arrow, Secret Page, Water Breathing

4th - Fire Trap, Leomund's Secure Shelter, Minor Creation, Arcane Eye, Detect Scrying, Fire Shield, Ice Storm, Shout, Illusory Wall, Contagion

5th - Leomund's Secret Chest, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Cone of Cold, Sending, False Vision, Nightmare, Blight, Overland Flight, Transmute Mud/Rock to Rock/Mud

6th - Guards and Wards, Legend Lore, Greater Heroism, Chain Lightning, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Move Earth

7th - Drawmjj's Instant Summons, Greater Arcane Sight, Power Word Blind, Statue

8th - Moment of Prescience, Power Word Stun, Sunburst, Screen

9th - Foresight, Power Word Kill, Meteor Swarm, Soul Bind[/spoiler]

[TheChrisWaits]

I don't think it's broken or necessarily even too good, but I'd play the shit out of this class.

[bkdubs123]

Well the point is not to make it broken, or even actually good, lol. The point is to demonstrate that a class isn't automatically good or broken or whatever just because of what it looks like on the surface.

You say you'd play the shit out of this class. Why? You did look through that "spell list" right? It has really no good skills, and barely any good class features.

[TheChrisWaits]

I mean yeah, if I had to rate it on JaronK's tier system it's probably 4, but I think it outshines most non-ToB melee characters. It's an unarmed combatant that's actually a viable alternative to the monk or swordsage because of the limited casting. Spells give it something to do other than "I punch it" even if it's just a fireball.

It's like an improvement on both the monk and the warmage at the same time.

[EjoThims]

This is better than the monk or the fighter by far for unarmed combat simply because it gives the damage from the monk and the feats of the fighter. Plus full BAB.

But gish and such abuses depends on how the Su casting works with caster progression PrCs. And that spell list is hideous, by the way.

Overall this is essentially Warmage, Monk, and Fighter rolled into one. Sure it's not great, but it's not the bottom of the barrel by far.

[RobbyPants]

I agree that the class as written is not overpowered in the least. 

My only concern with it would be if you found a way to add spells to your spell list.  I noticed your wording on the "casting" ability, and it looks like its all supernatural, and that there's no mention of "spells" or a "spell list", which might make it impossible to expand it.  If that's the case, then it'd be fairly hard to break the class.

I guess Arcane Strike would be a handy-as-hell feat to have.  Although, given these being "Mage slots", they might not trigger the feat.  I guess this brings me to my last point: is this really full casting?

[bkdubs123]

This is better than the monk or the fighter by far for unarmed combat simply because it gives the damage from the monk and the feats of the fighter. Plus full BAB.

Well, being better than a Monk or Fighter doesn't mean you don't still blow.

But gish and such abuses depends on how the Su casting works with caster progression PrCs. And that spell list is hideous, by the way.

Since this doesn't have a caster level (which... I need to add), and doesn't cast spells it can't even qualify for caster PrCs. And I know the spell list is hideous. That's the point.

Overall this is essentially Warmage, Monk, and Fighter rolled into one. Sure it's not great, but it's not the bottom of the barrel by far.

Actually Warmage, Monk, and Fighter all have their own advantages over this class as sad as that is. Warmage's spell list is actually A LOT better than this one. Monk can take Stunning Fist at first level (second?) - a larger advantage than you'd think, especially with the other feats that work off of it, and Fighters of course have higher HD, a couple more useful skills, and more feats.

[bkdubs123]

My only concern with it would be if you found a way to add spells to your spell list.  I noticed your wording on the "casting" ability, and it looks like its all supernatural, and that there's no mention of "spells" or a "spell list", which might make it impossible to expand it.  If that's the case, then it'd be fairly hard to break the class.

Right. The class doesn't have a "spell list" it has a Mage list. Likewise it doesn't cast spells, it prepares and uses supernatural abilities. I'm not aware of any way to break the "casting" portion of this class, but of course there might be a way...

I guess Arcane Strike would be a handy-as-hell feat to have.  Although, given these being "Mage slots", they might not trigger the feat.  I guess this brings me to my last point: is this really full casting?

Right again. Arcane Strike doesn't even work here. I will concede that it isn't exactly full casting per se, but bumping the abilities to Su is at least a small favor (standard action casting time across the board! casting in AMF!).

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, it's a trade-off.  I can see where it'd be useful, and I can see why you didn't want to use actual spells due to other abuses.

If it were full BAB/full casting, then I'd be really tempted to find a way to pump up my total attacks (TWF, Snap Kick, etc...) and Arcane Strike my ass off.  At that point, you don't really care what your spell list looks like.

[SiggyDevil]

I like these seemingly ridiculous 'thought experiments' because they tell more about a game mechanic or design strategy than most genuine efforts.

The Apocalypse Series over on The Wiz, for instance, was made to be RETARDEDLY POWERFUL UNBEATABLE but most of the warriors ended up being only on par with actual core-only spellcasters.



EDIT: Does anyone else see JoJo's Bizarre Adventure in this class?
The Wonderboy title is just icing on the cake for me.
I can't stop picturing faaaabulous poses and of course the gratuitous ZA WARUDO!

[Chemus]

The 'brokenest' thing about this class is the it completely ignores spell resistance. The rest of it makes it interesting though.

That SuA list is not an unhandy list. But since there's almost nothing that will expand that list and no PrC's will advance the SuA's, you're really stuck staying in the class. No real reason to mulitclass out though, IMO.

[PhaedrusXY]

Right again. Arcane Strike doesn't even work here. I will concede that it isn't exactly full casting per se, but bumping the abilities to Su is at least a small favor (standard action casting time across the board! casting in AMF!).

You can't use supernatural abilities in an AMF. They would not have arcane spell failure, though, and they have no components. So this guy could cast in full plate with a tower shield while holding his breath. It still wouldn't make his spell list suck any less, though. It might be fun to play this as a warforged with adamantine body and some battle fists.

[JaronK]

You know, all in all this is still a pretty strong class.  The spell list sucks, but there are a few gems in there (Phantasmal Steed, Explosive Runes, etc) and because the spells are Su, I think they all cast as standard actions without component costs... so Sepia Snake Sigil becomes more interesting.  Create Undead without component costs is quite strong too, though the class lacks a way to control them (but teamed up with other classes it could work).

It's obviously not Wizard level, but it's still got punch.

And this version still lacks mind bullets!

JaronK

[Midnight_v]

Full BAB, decent HD, 4 skills per level, class features every level, and 9th level spellcasting with more spells per day than a Wizard?!?! BROKEN! Well... actually, it still sucks... or at least that's the goal.

Depends what you mean by broken?

You've made it not have spells but su's. Well spells are not su's. Therefore I'd say this experiment fails.

In truth if you made a class that had ACTUAL spellcasting... and the good bab.... we'd find a way to add spells to our list and then proceed to break. Frankly it can't Prc either, or take metamagic?
Spellcasters do that... thats a big part of how they work.
Hmm... I suppose there is empower spell like ability. . . still drastically different.
I do like the ability to cast antimagic field and then just beat people with the good bab.

So since it isn't actually spellcasting... then its not actually as breakable.
9th level spell casting is stronger. Sadly wonderboy doesn't get extra actions either. Now quickend etc etc..
Doensn't qualify for familiars etc...
All that being said... still stronger than melee classes in general and probably tier 2, upper tier 3...considering all things.
Its has spells enough to be versitile, and the option to just beat people up, in an antimagic field.
(the create undead thing is interesting...)

[RobbyPants]

You know, all in all this is still a pretty strong class.  The spell list sucks, but there are a few gems in there (Phantasmal Steed, Explosive Runes, etc)

I was going to mention Explosive Runes earlier, but I noticed Dispel Magic isn't on the list (unless I missed it).  Is Explosive Runes all that bad without Dispel Magic to detonate your super-grenade?

[JaronK]

It's definitely a good spell either way, but it depends on your reading of "erasure attempt."  Most DMs would say that destroying the rune without using the appropriate methods would count as trying to erase it, causing it to explode, so you can fireball the paper the rune is on to set it off (or use some other appropriate method).  If they don't rule that way, great, now you can take out any rune that way without worrying about procedures.   Though I don't think your runes will go off from Dispel Magic... they're not spells, after all, they're supernatural.

But even in that case, you can still read the runes to set them off at long range with a spyglass or something.  There's still tons of utility.

Really, this class certainly doesn't "blow."  It's a fully functional melee class (full BAB, enough bonus feats to be handy, Alter Self at will, a few nifty movement tricks, Unarmed Strike for Two Handed Weapon + Unarmed TWF if you want, enough DR to at least be somewhat handy, respectable saves, etc) with some very handy spells that ignore components and SR.  Create Undead without components, even if you can't control the resulting creature, has TONS of potential.  It's not a Wizard or anything, but I'd put this thing approaching Warblade power (not quite, but getting there) considering the amazing flexibility those spells will allow.  I mean, it's got enough abilities to be handy in most situations, and it can definitely fight in melee, right?  So it's solid.

JaronK

[SiggyDevil]

Fuck. That's just plain assery with Dispel. I should do an Explosive Runes redo, maybe even variants.

.. or did RobbyPants beat me to it?

[RobbyPants]

Fuck. That's just plain assery with Dispel. I should do an Explosive Runes redo, maybe even variants.

.. or did RobbyPants beat me to it?

Did I fix Explosive Runes in my project?  I don't think I officially posted anything on it yet, but a while back, JaronK suggested having the damage from multiple runes overlap instead of stack.  So detonating ten runes simultaneously would just yield the best of ten separate 6d6 rolls (so never more than 36 points).  It could result in a lot of rolling, but I think that handles the worst abuse of the spell.

[JaronK]

Yeah, that's a pretty important fix.  It would still be a potent spell, but not a good spell for assassinating darn near anything (shoot a bolt wrapped with a piece of paper that has 20 runes on it, dispel/fireball the bolt, now the target takes 120d6 damage with no save if the bolt hits... or shoot the target's square, now they get a save but you only had to hit an AC of 5).

JaronK

[BowenSilverclaw]

The thread title made me think of the Lightning Warrior *shudders*