Author Topic: [3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.  (Read 11541 times)

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woodenbandman

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[3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.
« on: January 14, 2009, 12:04:21 AM »
And swordsage is decent :D

But as we all know, the Arcane swordsage is broken to fuck. So what if we combined the two classes: Arcane Swordsage and Shadowcaster? It would be the Mysterious Swordsage, and it could learn almost all shadow mysteries, except for perhaps the summoning ones, and the Shadow Conjuration ones. This would eliminate the problem of the shadowcaster's abilities becoming redundant quickly because they either have to focus on one thing to be competent or they've run out of spells on encounter 1.


A mysterious swordsage, protected by his Steel Shadows mystery, looks out from darkness into the world of the light.

Mysterious Swordsage

Hit Die: d6.
Skill Points: 4 per level.
Class skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(The Planes), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble

Level    BAB      Fort      Ref       Will      Mys.
Known
Mys.
Readied
Stances
Known
     Special
1+0+2+2+2641Fundamentals of Shadow, Shadow Focus(Weapon Focus), You Can't Outrun Your Shadow
2+1+3+3+3742Shadow Dodge
3+2+3+3+3852Umbral Sight 30ft
4+3+4+4+4952Shadow Focus(Shadow Boost)
5+3+4+4+41063You Can't Outrun Your Shadow + 2
6+4+5+5+51163
7+5+5+5+41263Umbral Sight 60 ft
8+6/+1+6+6+61373Shadow Jump
9+6/+1+6+6+61474Evasion
10+7/+2+7+7+71584You Can't Outrun Your Shadow + 3
11+8/+3+7+7+71684Umbral Sight 90 feet
12+8/+3+8+8+81784Shadow Focus(Shadow Boost)
13+9/+4+8+8+81894
14+10/+5+9+9+91995
15+11/+6/+1+9+9+920105You Can't Outrun Your Shadow + 4, Umbral Sight Unlimited
16+12/+7/+2+10+10+1021105Improved Shadow Jump
17+12/+7/+2+10+10+1022105Improved Evasion
18+13/+8/+3+11+11+1123115
19+14/+9/+4+11+11+1124115
20+15/+10/+5+12+12+1225126Shadow Empower 3/Day, You Can't Outrun Your Shadow+5

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Mysterious Swordsage is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the Shadow Hand school's favored weapons: the dagger, short sword, sai, siangham, unarmed strike, and spiked chain. This means that the Mysterious Swordsage gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat as a bonus feat.

Mysteries(Su): Mysterious Swordsages have access to special powers called Mysteries. These powers are considered to be Supernatural Abilities. They have no somatic component, do not function in an antimagic field, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

A Mysterious Swordsage learns new mysteries as shown on the table 1-1, the Mysterious Swordsage. These mysteries are learned exactly as if they were martial maneuvers of appropriate level, including requiring a minimum initiator level as detailed on page 39 of the Tome of Battle. Mysteries can be found in the section of Tome of Magic focusing on the Shadowcaster. Mysteries are considered readied until used. Once a Mystery is used, it is expended and is refreshed at the end of an encounter. A Mysterious Swordsage may take a full-round action to recover a single expended Mystery, which he can then use at the next available opportunity.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even numbered level, a mysterious Swordsage may exchange one mystery he knows for another mystery of any level he could learn. This makes it possible for the swordsage to exchange his Supernatural Ability or Spell-like Ability Mysteries for new mysteries that are cast as arcane spells. Note that after one of the mystery transformation points is reached, all mysteries gained thereafter are learned as Arcane Spells, until another such transformation point is reached.

The Swordsage needs a minimum of (Mystery level +10) charisma in order to use a mystery. The DCs of mysteries are charisma based and equal to (Mystery level + Charisma bonus).

In addition to mysteries, a Mysterious Swordsage may choose to learn Shadow Hand strikes, except that they are automatically considered Supernatural Abilities.

Stances(Ex): A Mysterious Swordsage may learn any stance he qualifies for from the Shadow Hand Discipline.

Fundamentals of Shadow(Su): A Mysterious Swordsage knows all fundamental mysteries and may use them at will.

Shadow Focus(Ex): A Mysterious Swordsage is considered to have the weapon focus feats for all of the Shadow Hand's favored weapons.

Umbral Sight(Su): A Mysterious Swordsage gains the ability to see in darkness out to 30 feet at third level. This ability improves as shown on the table. This ability functions in magical darkness. 

Shadow Boost:At 4th level, a Swordsage may add his Charisma modifier on damage rolls when determining the damage dealt by a Mystery or a Shadow Hand Maneuver. This adjustment applies only to HP damage. At 12th level, a Mysterious Swordsage may choose to heal hit points equal to his charisma modifier in any round during which he successfully attacks an enemy with an offensive Mystery or a Maneuver. 

Shadow Jump(Su):At 8th level, the Mysterious Swordage may, once per hour, use Dimension Door, as the spell at a caster level equal to his class level. At 16th level, he may use this ability once every 5 rounds.

You Can't Outrun Your Shadow(Ex): A Mysterious Swordage gains a +1 bonus on initiative checks. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels.

Bonus Metashadow Feats: At first level, and again at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, the Mysterious Swordsage gains a bonus Metashadow feat. The mysterious swordsage may not choose to apply these feats to Maneuvers.

Shadow Dodge(Ex): A Mysterious Swordsage of second level or higher his Charisma bonus to his AC while wearing light armor or no armor and carrying no more than a light load. Any condition that would render the Mysterious Swordsage helpless, such as being asleep or the paralyzed condition, causes him to lose this bonus, though being flat-footed or simply immobile does not.

Shadow Empower: At 20th level, when you initiate a Shadow Hand Boost or a Mystery with a range of Personal or You, you can make your shadow move on its own, and activate another Mystery or Boost with a casting time no longer than the action that you took, as a free action. For instance, if you use the Dark Soul mystery, you could instruct your shadow to initiate the Cloak of Deception boost, but you could not initiate the Cloak of Deception boost and cause your shadow to use the Dark Soul mystery, unless you quickened it with a metashadow feat.

Changes to Mysteries: The shadow Conjuration mysteries no longer exist, nor do the ones that summon shadow elementals. I'm considering Shadow Empower to allow you to use it after you use a mystery with a range of touch on yourself, and also considering how to handle metashadow feats. Should this guy get bonus Metashadow Feats, or should we do away with Paths altogether and give a set number, or just none at all.

EDIT: And shadow time cannot be used. Good catch.

EDIT2: Shadow Time... I dunno. It's really strong. There needs to be some downside to it, I think. Brainstorm.

Bauglir

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Re: Shadowcaster sucks.
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2009, 08:37:40 PM »
Your ideas intrigue me, and I wish to hear more.

I tried playing a Shadowcaster once, and yes, they suck. I'd be interested in seeing what hybridizing the mechanics with maneuvers would do. It would be nice to be able to contribute to combat more than twice a day. Having so few mysteries per day is crap, especially at low levels.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Shadowcaster sucks.
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2009, 03:50:55 PM »
I'm actually working on a Shadowcaster fix myself. If you'd like to, we could compare the two when they are finished.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Shadowcaster sucks.
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2009, 08:44:08 PM »
This does sound intriguing...

Snizor

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Re: Shadowcaster sucks.
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2009, 05:14:34 PM »
This does sound intriguing...
+1

OP:
Shadow Time (3 round time stop) would probably need to go as well.
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woodenbandman

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Re: Shadowcaster sucks.
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2009, 12:17:28 PM »
Very well, I hear all this interest, and I will set to work. SiFir, I would like to see your shadowcaster fix, it's probably going to be good as usual.

Midnight_v

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Re: Shadowcaster sucks.
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2009, 06:34:51 PM »
This does sound intriguing...
+1

OP:
Shadow Time (3 round time stop) would probably need to go as well.
I disagree.
Its not that far out of line with the rest of what the tob is doing. Taking extra turns is something the Dimond mind school does on a microcosm and what the eternal blade does.
The only thing with that is you have to find a way to keep it from becoming "infinite timestop"
and you're good. . . so maybe, maybe removing it could save a little work.
Though there are a couple of options with that.
Make it a class ability usable once per encounter (ala eternal blade)
Make sure it manuevers/mysteries can't be recovered during the time stop. Etc....
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woodenbandman

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Re: [3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2009, 11:50:51 PM »
Hmm... Maybe you're right. I just realized I gave him a poor reflex save. Need to fix that, and give him all good saves.

This is looking a lot like the Ninja base class.

woodenbandman

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Re: [3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2009, 06:56:36 PM »
mkay, I fixed his saves. He now has all good saves, making him a bit more durable than a spellcaster, while still less powerful. Any things that I should change, such as access to different stances and such? His school access is staying at Shadow Hand and mysteries only.

Bauglir

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Re: [3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2009, 10:46:23 PM »
I assume that Mysteries Readied functions in the same way as Maneuvers readied? Also, I assume that one uses one's initiator level to determine which levels of Mysteries one has access to, and that the restrictions on learning them in a given order are gone?
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

woodenbandman

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Re: [3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2009, 12:20:47 AM »
That is correct. They've now been seperated into levels, and they are learned exactly as maneuvers are, and cast as maneuvers, with the stipulation that they do not ignore spell failure unless they are supernatural or spell-like abilities:

oh shit I was gonna quote here but I didn't actually put it in the OP. Edit time.

bkdubs123

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Re: [3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2009, 04:36:16 PM »
This has potential for great success... I like what I'm seeing.

Nanshork

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Re: [3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2009, 04:58:31 PM »
Two abilities named Shadow Dodge is somewhat confusing, I suggest changing one of them.  Other than that, looks nice so far.
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woodenbandman

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Re: [3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2009, 05:45:03 PM »
Hadn't noticed that, I guess it could be something else.

woodenbandman

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Re: [3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2009, 03:08:27 PM »
Bump because I'm hopefully going to begin testing this in some fights, and then graduate it to a party situation, so that I can see its power level.

EDIT: Also, a few questions before I actually bring this to bear in a playtest: Should I include bonus metashadow feats, or are they just generally crap?

Should Shadow Boost be allowed to work with mysteries that have a range of touch, provided that they target the caster?

Should I give this guy light armor?

And are there any skills you'd add or subtract?

woodenbandman

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Re: [3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2009, 11:31:50 AM »
Okay, changes made.

I gave bonus feats ala wizard, and I gave the Mysterious Swordsage light armor. I thought about changing its name to the Mysterious Swordmage, but I decided I was too lazy.

bogsnes

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Re: [3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2009, 12:30:26 PM »
I think you should add Concentration as a class skill...

woodenbandman

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Re: [3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2009, 02:07:26 PM »
Oh yeah good point, I left that out because I was thinking "hey, they're maneuvers," but then I was like, wait...

woodenbandman

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Re: [3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2009, 06:41:11 PM »
GIANT OVERSIGHT:

I forgot to give the class any form of darkvision. They now receive darkvision as per the Shadowcaster, except that they get it starting at level 1 rather than level 3, and at the time a Binder is able to bind Tenebrous (so as to see perfectly in darkness of all kinds), they get the see in darkness ability as a supernatural ability.

EDIT: Actually, darkvision as a dip isn't what I want. They get darkvision from level 3 and perfect darkvision from level 7, too far in to be a dip.

Ivory Knight

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Re: [3.5]Shadowcaster Sucks.
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2009, 07:54:18 AM »
Has anybody played a Mysterious Swordsage and would like to tell me how it compares to other baseclasses?
(especially Shadowcaster and Arcane Swordsage)

@ woodenbandman:
Any updates on this?

The picture totally looks like your description of the class :thumb
It also looks familiar, where did you find it?