Author Topic: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game  (Read 44809 times)

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Zeke

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Re: Episode 34: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2009, 06:31:47 PM »
Talen, your job here is to disagree with everything I say, jesus man, know your role.

but seriously, yeah the intolerance bothers me. It's not that I don't think you shouldn't socialise with the people you like, I just think gamers don't always try hard enough.

Straw_Man

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Re: Episode 34: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2009, 08:47:39 PM »
Talen, your job here is to disagree with everything I say, jesus man, know your role.

but seriously, yeah the intolerance bothers me. It's not that I don't think you shouldn't socialise with the people you like, I just think gamers don't always try hard enough.

  We're a mixed bag. Up here in Canada it feels like they try to hard and let jerks ruin their game Zeke.
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Zeke

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Re: Episode 34: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2009, 10:16:45 PM »
Actually, whether or not people "ruin" games will be discussed in the epi. Canaidians are known for being rather tolerant.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 05:56:30 PM by Zeke »

Talen Lee

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Re: Episode 34: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2009, 01:31:43 AM »
Talen, your job here is to disagree with everything I say, jesus man, know your role.
This is where you kick me out of the game for not being a team player, isn't it? ;_;

woodenbandman

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Re: Episode 34: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2009, 04:21:24 AM »
More the last two reasons than the first. If you're asking why we are so concerned about it I can provide an answer for my personal reasons. There is a trend among gamers where people who do not fit the "group mind" are kicked out of groups. People defend it ususally by desparaging the style of play of the banished player. It's symptomatic of a lerger problem with the Gameosphere. That is the idea that some styles of play are "bad" while others are "proper". I can see wanting to play in a specific style and why someone playing in  an oposing style could be troublesome. However, you can aleays talk to the player or (gasp) try to modifiy your style. Gamin is an intensely social personality driven activity. Try as you might to pretend it doesn't matter and you have no connection to the other people around the table, you do. Whether or not you want to.


So if everyone was playing pirates and some guy comes in and wants to play ninjas, they're all supposed to start wearing black and cut their parrots' vocal cords?

The more I think about it and read these responses, I think the better analogy for people you game with is that they are like people you work with.  The big thing I'm going to talk about in the episode (or may do one just on this) is problem solving and setting friendship aside to deal with the problem.  That is much more similar to the way you would problem solve with a co-worker or subordinate.  The whole point is to keep it impersonal and rational and to just have it based on friendship is actually probably poor advice.

This is... a strange way of putting it. I have a very mixed gaming group. Some of these guys are like brothers to me, but this one guy is kind of annoying, like the strange guy nobody likes at the office. I love most of these guys, but I sometimes hate gaming with some of them. It's a strange thing, let me demonstrate in chart:

Person A: Good friend, sometimes gets me mad.
Person B: Like a brother, but gets me mad quite often.
Person C: Friend, but he has a way of making people laugh.
Person D: Good friend, sometimes disappears into the background, but generally a great guy.
Person E: Annoying guy, sucks at game

I have a very mixed group as you can see. You can't treat every player the same way, just like you can't treat every relationship the same way. If you have to go take off at a hangout, your buddies will understand, but you can't just leave your girlfriend in the middle of a date. Sometimes the same problem will require a different solution depending on the player.

And I am totally fine with kicking someone out, but that's usually because I, as a person, want to sever that relationship. I wouldn't want to kick out a friend who just annoyed me while gaming. I'd want to work with them and find out the problem. For instance, I get mad at persons A and B far more often than I get mad at person E, but I'd much sooner kick out person E because he's kind of a jerk.


Chemus

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Re: Episode 34: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2009, 04:47:47 AM »
I'd much rather listen to "This is how to not kick people from your games. A. B. C." than "Don't kick people from your games."

The first offers solutions rather than admonishments. Giving me advice on how to work through difficulties that I perceive would be a real help. Blandly stating that I'm wrong to kick players is useless. As are anecdotes that don't give any specifics.

So, if you're going to be more verbose than Josh has been on these boards about this subject, then I'm interested. Otherwise, I'll give it a pass.
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Dionysus

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Re: Episode 34: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2009, 09:16:46 PM »
I am looking for ward to hearing this episode.

I game with the people I work with - Since pretty much all my company are people who love games (and our QA department has monthly "gaming night") we've got a wide selection of people to choose from.

In my current game we've had 3 people who had to be removed.
1) just didn't fit the game at all and refused to change character. ("fight-or the barbarian" in a game of social characters and deception) He agreed that we were not a good match for his gaming style and he moved on.

2) bad scheduling. - He was an awesome player and we all want him back - but his scedule just doesn't match (night shifts, and now no car to get to us... we're still bugging him to return).

3) The i'm a mosnster player. This guy was hard. He was actually interesting and a nice guy we like, but he was.. disturbing... in character. He kept pushing the character in directions where he was not involving the other players and after eventually he stopped coming as he moved to night shifts, but we all breathed a sigh of relief.

But yes, dealing with players who dont fit well with the group is very bloody difficult. Hints on how to do this tactfully are very appreciated! (especially when you work with the people and have to see them every day, you really cant just "kick" them out)

emissary666

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2009, 09:48:25 PM »
I have been kicked out of a game for arguing with the GM about a game I was currently running. That did not affect my position on the kicking of players. Before I was kicked out, all but 1 player kicked out the primary problem player, most by giving the DM a him or me and me giving him a him or you (the DM was in my game). It worked, however bad it may seem, and proves that players can in fact kick other players out. It just requires amazing cooperation or, in my case, a lot of singular people making the same threat with no knowledge of the others.
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Josh

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2009, 12:08:42 AM »
We never made the claim that it is impossible to kick people out.  We make the claim that it is not your best option.
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emissary666

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2009, 07:23:27 PM »
The best option is not always the option that keeps players.
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Josh

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2009, 07:34:59 PM »
The best option is not always the option that keeps players.

Do you have an example?
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emissary666

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2009, 07:43:36 PM »
A game I was in had a severe problem player, he was actually physically abusing other players. Finally, Every player left the game until the problem player was kicked. If you are going to lose one player or another no matter what, kicking the problem player looks best.
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Josh

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2009, 08:34:16 AM »
A game I was in had a severe problem player, he was actually physically abusing other players. Finally, Every player left the game until the problem player was kicked. If you are going to lose one player or another no matter what, kicking the problem player looks best.
How was that an "in game" issue?  Didn't you kick him out like you would from any event?
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Cam_Banks

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2009, 08:39:06 AM »
How was that an "in game" issue?  Didn't you kick him out like you would from any event?

Isn't player behavior the reason they're asked to leave or kicked out anyway? In this case, games are like any other event, yes. It just so happens that in some cases it's because the person is being a dick within the context of the game and nobody else is getting along with them, hence being booted.

Cheers,
Cam
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Josh

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2009, 10:24:39 AM »
How was that an "in game" issue?  Didn't you kick him out like you would from any event?

Isn't player behavior the reason they're asked to leave or kicked out anyway? In this case, games are like any other event, yes. It just so happens that in some cases it's because the person is being a dick within the context of the game and nobody else is getting along with them, hence being booted.

Cheers,
Cam

Do you have an example?
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Chemus

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2009, 10:32:43 AM »
Actually, Cam, this has kinda been gone over, and what I understand is that if the player is not doing things In Real Life that are kickable offenses (eating your pets, drinking the last beer, etc.), Josh contends that they should not be kicked. That is, in-game stuff should always be taken care of, rather than getting rid of the player. emissary666's example is showing physical abuses.

Example: If players are leaving solely because one player is playing a different game, perhaps he's consistently bringing up uncomfortable subject matter like torture, the group/GM are supposed to be able to satisfy that player's needs for play while keeping everyone having fun.

I'm interested in specific anecdotes or techniques that the Gameologists might have that produce this effect.

Do you have an example?
Do you?
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Josh

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2009, 10:47:32 AM »
Actually, Cam, this has kinda been gone over, and what I understand is that if the player is not doing things In Real Life that are kickable offenses (eating your pets, drinking the last beer, etc.), Josh contends that they should not be kicked. That is, in-game stuff should always be taken care of, rather than getting rid of the player. emissary666's example is showing physical abuses.

Example: If players are leaving solely because one player is playing a different game, perhaps he's consistently bringing up uncomfortable subject matter like torture, the group/GM are supposed to be able to satisfy that player's needs for play while keeping everyone having fun.

I'm interested in specific anecdotes or techniques that the Gameologists might have that produce this effect.

Do you have an example?
Do you?

The episode is recorded.  It will be released as soon as possible.
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Josh

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2009, 08:53:30 AM »
And the Episode is up!
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Robert Bohl

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2009, 04:51:28 PM »
Just started listening. Extremely good, so far. Consider this your head-pat.

Robert Bohl

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2009, 06:02:15 PM »
Ok, just finished listening. Great stuff. Seriously. I think this is your best episode ever. It's certainly the best episode I've ever listened to, and that's including the ones where I got metaphorically blown.

What's especially interesting to me about my reaction to this show is that I'm a firm believer in choosing not to play with people you're not compatible with. My preferred analogy is not a bowling team or dinner party but is instead fucking. You shouldn't keep fucking someone if you don't click and when you realize this is the case it's incumbent upon you to be honest with yourself and your play partner and anyone else you've chosen to involve.

So why do I love this episode so much? Because you guys know what you're talking about and are passionate and focused. My only disappointment is you guys didn't include the brilliant thing that Josh, I think, said at the Arisia panel: people aren't being assholes because they like to hurt people. Their asshole behavior is scratching some kind of itch. Figure out what that is and try to figure out a way to scratch it functionally.