Author Topic: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game  (Read 43526 times)

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emissary666

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #100 on: March 19, 2009, 11:10:33 PM »
I used to give the benefit of the doubt. I found that giving respect rarely got me any respect back. So, since I found it flawed, I stopped giving the benefit of the doubt and instead assume that the person is going to be an asshole, so I show no respect but no disrespect.
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Robert Bohl

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #101 on: March 19, 2009, 11:13:07 PM »
I used to give the benefit of the doubt. I found that giving respect rarely got me any respect back. So, since I found it flawed, I stopped giving the benefit of the doubt and instead assume that the person is going to be an asshole, so I show no respect but no disrespect.
But what does "showing respect" even mean?

Judd

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #102 on: March 19, 2009, 11:52:08 PM »
There are times when I have had to walk away from people I gamed with and write them out of my life and as a result of that, not game with them anymore.

It has happened twice, both were people I never saw anymore away from the table and our friendships had atrophied.  Things happened at the gaming table that displayed that atrophy or maybe the reason for it...chicken and egg.

The best thing I could do is walk away from them as people and as gamers.

Sometimes people are jerks because they aren't getting something out of the game.  Sometimes they are jerks for far deeper and more nefarious reasons.  Sometimes they are jerks because of a flaw in your friendship that allows them to think that they can be jerks, that it is okay.

It ain't.

Eff them, in the aye, with a big fat cee.

I have listened to the first half of the show and look forward to listening to the rest.
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Josh

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #103 on: March 20, 2009, 09:20:42 AM »
An example of saluting a uniform is respecting the GM and or the venue owner.  If you do not respect the guy who put together the adventure you are on, or the person who lets you use their house, you are a horrible human being and need to grow up. 

And you don't get respect because you show it.

You get respect when you act like you deserve it.  And you should show people the respect they in turn deserve.

 A GM, for example, who is fair, even tempered, fun and creative deserves your respect. 

Quote
There are times when I have had to walk away from people I gamed with and write them out of my life and as a result of that, not game with them anymore.
If have had similar events, not with gamer friends, but it could have been.  The guy you thought was a friend and then x happens.  You shake your head and get away from them.  Been there. 
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Judd

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #104 on: March 20, 2009, 03:33:04 PM »
A GM, for example, who is fair, even tempered, fun and creative deserves your respect. 

Can we run, not walk but run away from this?

I'd love to take ten giant steps away from the GM as Patriarchal stern daddy figure who deserves respect and instead walk towards, the people you game with are cool people and deserve your respect until they squander it by asshattery.

The person who owns the venue definitely deserves everyone's thanks for allowing us all into their home to play pretend.  I love to show this by offering to clean up before we leave.
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Robert Bohl

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #105 on: March 20, 2009, 03:34:58 PM »
Well, the GM is just one person who deserves respect. Just one player that deserves respect. I don't think Josh's calling out the GM in this case necessarily means he's limiting such treatment to the GM.

Judd

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #106 on: March 20, 2009, 03:50:56 PM »
Well, the GM is just one person who deserves respect. Just one player that deserves respect. I don't think Josh's calling out the GM in this case necessarily means he's limiting such treatment to the GM.

Yup, yup, my apologies.  I didn't read charitably and jumped in the middle without reading prior posts.
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Josh

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #107 on: March 20, 2009, 04:00:53 PM »
Well, the GM is just one person who deserves respect. Just one player that deserves respect. I don't think Josh's calling out the GM in this case necessarily means he's limiting such treatment to the GM.

Yup, yup, my apologies.  I didn't read charitably and jumped in the middle without reading prior posts.

The GM or Venue Owner are just the clearest examples. 

Everyone "on board" with the fun deserves respect.  Even people not in the game.  In an earlier episode we talk about "parent time" if you are gaming at someones parents house you should set aside time in the beginning of the night to talk to the parent.  Just to say hi and connect and so forth.  That is respect.

Respect is when you make another person feel glad that they know you.
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Lakira

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #108 on: March 21, 2009, 02:29:34 AM »
In this episode, Josh did most of the editing so I'm curious about a couple of things:
Did you notice the music is screwed up?  Is it only me and my nitpicky perfectionism that noticed?
He put in quite a few of our "funny cut material", not just one.  Thoughts?

1. The music did seem to be off. The offness of it wasn't a thing which jumped out at me; it sort of crept up after multiple listens. (I listen to the shows while doing work, so I'm usually distracted and have it looped. Eventually the stuff of the show sinks in....)

2. I like the funny cut material, though I suspect that my sense of humour may be closer to Meg's than Josh's. Given that this is only one point of datum on what funny cut material to stick in, it's a little hard to say.

Re: The respect thing. I think Meg pinned it in the episode when she said that it's important to be civil. Saying you need to show respect to someone gets tied up with the idea that you feel respect for someone. Saying that you should be courteous or civil to someone is tied to the idea that you should be a decent human being.

Plus when it gets to the point where you need to bitch slap someone, it has that much more weight to it.

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #109 on: March 21, 2009, 12:49:31 PM »
I get kicked out on a regular basis.  :bigeye

Then I'm told, "Just kidding.".  :twitch :)

Then I'm told, "No, seriously, get out."  :lmao

It's played so straight, it's hard to tell if he's kidding or not. Even though I know he's kidding.

Or not.

Maybe.

I think.

I always wondered what would happen if I took it seriously and just left. (I wouldn't take it personally as I'm unsure if it was a serious kick out or not.)

If I were every really kicked out, I doubt I'd return.

Josh

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #110 on: March 22, 2009, 04:54:06 AM »
I get kicked out on a regular basis.  :bigeye

Then I'm told, "Just kidding.".  :twitch :)

Then I'm told, "No, seriously, get out."  :lmao

It's played so straight, it's hard to tell if he's kidding or not. Even though I know he's kidding.

Or not.

Maybe.

I think.

I always wondered what would happen if I took it seriously and just left. (I wouldn't take it personally as I'm unsure if it was a serious kick out or not.)

If I were every really kicked out, I doubt I'd return.

Liking country music gets you hanged in some parts of the country.
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Halloween

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #111 on: March 22, 2009, 06:51:07 PM »
Not liking country music can get you hanged in DIFFERENT parts of the country.

I just re-listened to your episode.

I have also been kicked out of a group, on the interwebs no less, and I will wager the opinion that being kicked out online can be more annoying then being booted in real life.

Unless they're ninja, people can't completely avoid explaining themselves in real life. You can expect a conversation about it, which will likely be unpleasant and one-sided, but you can expect to have your opinions heard, by at least some of the people involved.

When you go to check the game website and your login has been deleted after submitting your character concept, and you have a single e-mail saying in brief "I don't like your character concept, and because you attempted to argue why you wanted to play that character, I have kicked you out and removed your login." you have no recourse at all. You can no longer communicate with anyone involved.

It was a surprisingly unpleasant experience.

It hugely affected my stance on gaming, especially on gaming through forums. I now believe that games of a quality and consistency that I desire cannot be played through PbP, the medium is insufficient. Observe Josh's burning wheel game on this very forum. He started prep for that game in January, and it hasn't gotten through character creation yet.

It also solidified the idea that there are no "problem players."

The concept of the "problem player" a dangerous idea, and one that allows the objectification of an other person that justifies unpleasant actions towards them. A gaming group can have a problem, and that problem can be caused by the actions of a specific member, but the player is not the problem. The problem is the action. More specifically, the problem is the negative responses that the action provokes the in the rest of the group.

Is this semantic bullshit? Yes, to a degree, but it represents a more helpful way to look at these problems then labeling them "problem players". In general, "problem players" are merely acting in a way that a majority of the group dislikes. If this is pointed out in a non-confrontational way, behavior can be changed. Simply by bringing it up, the rest of the group may find ways to channel those actions towards more productive ends. The now cliche "power gamer" is the most obvious example of this. Their payouts are causing friction, but they are not themselves a problem.

Now inevitably this leads to the response of "what if they're crazy and stab people?" It's a ridiculous question that's completely outside of the area of argument. Of COURSE someone who stabs other people is a "problem player" they're a "problem person" and probably a "complete lunatic" as well. It's a niche situation that does not in any way relate to the actual discussion, and I can well understand why you spent almost half and hour debunking this form of argument. It drives me nuts.

I enjoyed this episode, and as someone who has also been kicked out of a group I appreciated it. Unfortunately, the people who are going to casually kick people out of a group are unlikely to be the kind of people who take advice.

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #112 on: March 22, 2009, 11:05:41 PM »
I'm listening to the episode, and I heard your ethics comparison. While Ethics of Engineering might say that "killing someone is wrong" is a universal fact, actual ethics classes have a lot more room for arguments. Whether something that is normally wrong but circumstantially justified, it isn't clear that it's still wrong. That's probably why you get a huge backlash from people who almost entirely agree with you on this issue. It's the same reason the debates on right-to-life and right-to-die arguments are so intractable, but with less serious consequences; it's a debate on the meaning of "good" and "right".

Hope this helps, because I loved the episode :)
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Josh

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #113 on: March 23, 2009, 02:50:49 AM »
I'm listening to the episode, and I heard your ethics comparison. While Ethics of Engineering might say that "killing someone is wrong" is a universal fact, actual ethics classes have a lot more room for arguments. Whether something that is normally wrong but circumstantially justified, it isn't clear that it's still wrong. That's probably why you get a huge backlash from people who almost entirely agree with you on this issue. It's the same reason the debates on right-to-life and right-to-die arguments are so intractable, but with less serious consequences; it's a debate on the meaning of "good" and "right".

Hope this helps, because I loved the episode :)

Ethics of engineering is an an actual ethics class. 

Part of the problem with people, and this issue, is that people just want to argue. 

You can punch your grandma if you are in fight club together and it's your first night. 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 04:11:26 AM by Josh »
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emissary666

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #114 on: March 23, 2009, 03:00:25 AM »
I'd punch my grandma if she gave me enough reason. Some people are not going to listen to ethics and shit. If you don't want people kicking others out of their games, you need to distinguish between who's getting kicked out unfairly and who is just an asshole.
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otherdoc

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #115 on: March 23, 2009, 10:00:25 AM »
Just got to hear the episode.  Very good stuff.

I try my best not to label people as "good" or "bad" players -- or, indeed, as anything at all, if I can help it.  But then again, I'm one of those annoying bastards who tend to be appallingly neutral when it comes to conflicts between people.   ;)  (Yes, this would include the apparently widespread and deeply raging conflict between people and their grandmothers in their local fight clubs...)

After reading this over, I see that this will indeed be covered in a later episode, but I'll go ahead and add my support to the idea of heading things off at the pass when you're setting up your gaming group in the first place.  I am hoping that what I'm doing is not "velvet-roping," though, as Zeke puts it, because since he mentioned that I begin to wonder if that might be the case.

Well, here's an example.  I recently had a friend text me asking if I'm looking for more people for my tabletop game.  I told him yes, but wanted to know who it was he was thinking of inviting along.  When he told me who the two people he'd been talking to were I let him know that I don't think I have the necessary patience to deal with those particular guys as players in a tabletop game.  He responded by telling me he understood and would tell them that the game is full.  I did not stop him from doing this.

Now, these are a couple of guys whom I consider friends but whom I'd prefer not to have as players in one of my tabletop games because they have personality quirks that I get frustrated with very quickly and I know that it would cause the game to suffer -- particularly since I know some of the other players get frustrated with those guys pretty quickly as well.  Now, I'm not saying that I don't want to interact with those guys or anything or that there's anything inherently WRONG with them, just that I don't want to deal with the problems that I know would come up if I tried to run a tabletop game with them in it.  I'm trying to help prevent them, myself and my players from having a bad gaming experience by recognizing my own limitation in this respect (namely, my lack of patience for those particular personality quirks) and keeping it from coming into play.

And that said, by the way, I am working on trying to become more patient with those individuals when I see them socially so that I can ultimately come up with better ways to handle it.  And heck, this isn't even a case in which I've invited someone into my game or even been talking to them about it -- this is just something that happened to arise from a private conversation between them and one of my players.  Is this velvet-roping?  Or is it genuinely heading issues off at the pass?

Ah, and as for the respect thing, I have to agree with Lakira.  Without getting into the semantics of it (since I know that different people and indeed different dictionaries will disagree about the meanings of words -- and heck, without differing definitions of things language would never evolve and we'd probably still be speaking Latin or pseudo-Germanic or something), I try to be courteous to people regardless of what degree of the emotional response associated with respect I may or may not be feeling, simply because it's part of treating someone like a person instead of a thing.  Treating a person like crap just because they haven't yet "done something to earn your respect" seems to me more just an excuse to treat them like crap than anything else.  It kind of makes it sound like earning respect is a specific item on a list that can be checked off as soon as X value is reached, when really I think it's more to do with the randomness of emotional response.  I can't decide to feel respect for someone any more than I can decide to fall in love with them.  Although I suppose it's possible to decide to have sex with them without either of those two things having happened, but that's another topic entirely...    :D

Oh, and about the editing!  I noticed the difference with the song playing longer behind the intro and then under some of the outtakes.  I kind of liked it.  I'd probably fade it out earlier at the start of the show (like it was before), but having it run under the outtakes seems like more of a natural extension of the kind of thing you were doing before when Josh and Zeke would make funny comments in between Meg reading the ending notes.  It kind of works.  For me, at least.   :)

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #116 on: March 23, 2009, 02:02:08 PM »
First of all, it is a true joy to actually have an episode that was actually interesting after the horrors of the min-maxing episode. The utter lack of self-righteousness in the min-maxing episodes was starting to grate on me, and those episodes were quickly relegated to my doing dishes and writing research papers background listening pile.

This episode was pure brilliance, if only for the fact that it was actually needed. It is a sad comment on the gaming community that this is a controversial topic, even more worrying that the incredibly commonsensical approach taken by the podcasters seems to actually cause some ire.

Anyway, the episode was highly listenable and I look forward to the next instalments.


Josh

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #117 on: March 23, 2009, 04:39:17 PM »

Well, here's an example.  I recently had a friend text me asking if I'm looking for more people for my tabletop game.  I told him yes, but wanted to know who it was he was thinking of inviting along.  When he told me who the two people he'd been talking to were I let him know that I don't think I have the necessary patience to deal with those particular guys as players in a tabletop game.  He responded by telling me he understood and would tell them that the game is full.  I did not stop him from doing this.

The "mistake" is possibly not talking with the offending party about it.  And obfuscating the truth.  Even the response of "I don't think you are a good fit for this group" would be better.  That creates a situation where they might take some self awareness about their issues.  Now some people might lie to save their feelings, I am against this only because lies tend to require bigger lies and if they can be salvaged as players, I would like that.

I generally find that people who I know the problem with, can be managed.  But this is coming up in further episodes.
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otherdoc

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #118 on: March 23, 2009, 09:30:24 PM »
Now some people might lie to save their feelings, I am against this only because lies tend to require bigger lies and if they can be salvaged as players, I would like that.
Yeah, that's kind of one of the things bothering me about it -- I don't want to end up sliding into that particular gravity well.  :rollseyes  I think the particular situation I described in the example I used might end up all right because it struck me as a somewhat casual question in the first place and I don't see it necessarily coming up again since I don't usually talk a lot about my own tabletop RPGs when I see these guys.  However, I can see that there may be a point down the road if maybe someone ELSE joins the group and talks to them about the game where it WOULD come up again.  If that does happen then I won't lie to them -- I'll try to clarify the situation for them as best I can (which at least should be easier in this particular case since I never spoke to them about it in the first place).

I generally find that people who I know the problem with, can be managed.  But this is coming up in further episodes.
I look forward to seeing what's on tap.   :)

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Re: Episode 36: Don't Kick People out of your game
« Reply #119 on: April 06, 2009, 05:09:53 AM »
So...we're woefully behind in listening, but we finally got the chance to listen to this one.

I liked your discussion on the semantics of the friend/acquaintance/etc. Actually I liked your discussion on the whole. Interesting listening. Bravo.  :clap
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