Author Topic: A Triple Threat Build  (Read 4504 times)

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Sinfire Titan

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A Triple Threat Build
« on: May 22, 2008, 10:56:36 PM »
So, I'll give the basics for it. It is a Triple Threat, a Psionic Meldshaping Gish. Its attached to the post, so give it a good once-over and tell me what you think.


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Shigunaru

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2008, 11:01:35 PM »
mmm... Could you please hand us poor guys who use Openoffice an .xls version?
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AfterCrescent

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2008, 11:56:47 PM »
I second the whole "save it in non-vista format and upload" thing :D
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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2008, 11:57:14 PM »
Or even those people who don't use Office 2007.
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DaveTheMagicWeasel

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2008, 05:07:49 AM »
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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2008, 05:56:09 AM »
HarHarHar, real smart people have Office 2007  :eh I'll have a look at the build...

edit1: Legacy Champion PrC can be found in the Weapons of Legacy book, dont own it myself though....
edit2: you might want to use fractional BAB and saves
edit3: I don't know anything on the classes of the build and thus nothing on its effectiveness
edit4: I added an Office 2003 version of the build
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 06:02:02 AM by Ieniemienie »
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DavidWL

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2008, 06:47:31 AM »
So, I'll give the basics for it. It is a Triple Threat, a Psionic Meldshaping Gish. Its attached to the post, so give it a good once-over and tell me what you think.

I can't appear to open your file.

Could you save it as a .csv file?
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
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Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

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Ieniemienie

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2008, 07:21:36 AM »
So, I'll give the basics for it. It is a Triple Threat, a Psionic Meldshaping Gish. Its attached to the post, so give it a good once-over and tell me what you think.

I can't appear to open your file.

Could you save it as a .csv file?
Here you go
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Shadeseraph

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2008, 09:16:40 AM »
Looks nice, but you should give input in which soulmelds are you taking. You are going the natural attack route, right?

BTW, why warblade before totemist? If you pick the warblade levels after the totemist ones, you would get access to higher level maneouvers. That said, It's not a big deal, because there are a lot of great low level maneouvers (DM counters, for example), but still... higher level stances is never a bad thing.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2008, 04:42:41 PM »
To everyone who can't view the original file: Microsoft has a file viewer for dowload that can let you open it.

Looks nice, but you should give input in which soulmelds are you taking. You are going the natural attack route, right?

BTW, why warblade before totemist? If you pick the warblade levels after the totemist ones, you would get access to higher level maneouvers. That said, It's not a big deal, because there are a lot of great low level maneouvers (DM counters, for example), but still... higher level stances is never a bad thing.

Yes. Namely Slam, Bite, and Claws via Landshark Boots/Girallon Arms. Mostly, I took Warblade for the Higher HP, and the fact that it works better at level 1. Totemist 1 is incredibly vulnerable due to lack of the Totem Bind, a fact that my CO Diary made me aware of. I am aware that I could get better maneuvers and stances if I took Totemist first, but I choose Warblade in preferance. That being said, it is a good idea to mix it up a bit.

Quote
edit1: Legacy Champion PrC can be found in the Weapons of Legacy book, dont own it myself though....
edit2: you might want to use fractional BAB and saves
edit3: I don't know anything on the classes of the build and thus nothing on its effectiveness

1: That's my problem. I know the entry requirements and the fact that it advances class features, but I have no clue what the saves are.

2: Fractional would really mess with this build, and gives me a headache, which is why I don't use it. Also, the low Will save is a virtual non-issue due to Diamond Mind.

3: I know Totemist and Warblade are great, people like the War Mind, and Soul Manifester is somewhat crappy. The problem I have with this build is the low Manifester level and Melshaper level. Very vulnerable to dispeling and I can't augment my powers as high as I want. I may be able to offset this with the Legacy Item(s), as this wasn't designed for a specfici campaign (it was just a practice).


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AfterCrescent

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2008, 09:33:16 PM »
1: That's my problem. I know the entry requirements and the fact that it advances class features, but I have no clue what the saves are.
Rogue BAB, Good will, poor everything else.
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DavidWL

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2008, 10:30:41 PM »
I've had a chance to look at the build now.  Some thoughts:

1)  Moderate level ability in a number of ways (psionics, maneuvers, meld shaping).  Moderate level in multiple things usually isn't nearly as good as being excellent at one.  It can work quite well, but only if you have a clear idea of how the abilities are going to synergize in useful ways.

This is my biggest point, and unfortunately, I don't know these systems well enough to help you here.

2)  It is worth it to start totemist 2 instead of warblade.  You'll have 1 level of suckiness, but after that, you'll be golden (with the totem chakra bind), and you'll benefit forever onward from being able to space out the levels of warblade.

3)  Personally, I think BAB is overrated.  In a number of instances it looks like you timed the number of levels you decided to take because of BAB rather than class abilities.

While it still isn't optimal, I'd lean towards something like:
Totemist 2/Incarnate 2/Psion 3/Soulbinder 4/Legacy Champion 8/Warblade 1/

The trade of totemist levels for incarnate levels costs you one BAB, but is almost pure gain and lets you have both more HP and more meld and chakra bind options.  (The soulbinder's extra chakra binds should apply to both Totemist and Incarnate).

Psion instead of warmind gets you a *lot* of extra powers known and power points.
Taking warblade and crusader later on let you get most of the good stuff you would have gotten in your build.

It could be that it would be worth it to take legacy champion to advance soulbinder.  I'm not sure.

Taking double chakra bind (totem chakra) seems to me to be a wonderful and obvious pick.  Extra Essentia (or whatever it is called) might also be worth it.

Mine gives up a significant amount of BAB - fractional bab would help that.

Best,
David

P.S.  Frankly, I still don't like my build that much, but don't know what else to do.
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

Sinfire Titan

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2008, 06:22:39 PM »
I've had a chance to look at the build now.  Some thoughts:

1)  Moderate level ability in a number of ways (psionics, maneuvers, meld shaping).  Moderate level in multiple things usually isn't nearly as good as being excellent at one.  It can work quite well, but only if you have a clear idea of how the abilities are going to synergize in useful ways.

With both the Totemist and War Mind providing long-term buffs for Combat, the Warblade and Gish portions will be able to make the build an effective combatant. While it is not the King of Smack, it is a versatile combatant that will prove very durable. The idea was to have a build that most DMs would allow off the bat without having it suck.

Quote
This is my biggest point, and unfortunately, I don't know these systems well enough to help you here.

2)  It is worth it to start totemist 2 instead of warblade.  You'll have 1 level of suckiness, but after that, you'll be golden (with the totem chakra bind), and you'll benefit forever onward from being able to space out the levels of warblade.

True. Also staggering the Warblade and Totemist levels would do wonders for it. I may limit it to 2 Totemist levels to squeeze in two more levels of Warblade at the peak-end of the build.

Quote
3)  Personally, I think BAB is overrated.  In a number of instances it looks like you timed the number of levels you decided to take because of BAB rather than class abilities.

Yes. Yes I did. Dropping a few levels of Totemist wouldn't hurt (aside from leaving it vulnerable to being Dispeled) and would probably allow for an increase in the class features it has. That said, I do like having 4 attacks with a 4-handed Greatsword (courtesy of the Girallon Arms) and 6 attacks at 20th.

Quote
While it still isn't optimal, I'd lean towards something like:
Totemist 2/Incarnate 2/Psion 3/Soulbinder 4/Legacy Champion 8/Warblade 1/

The trade of totemist levels for incarnate levels costs you one BAB, but is almost pure gain and lets you have both more HP and more meld and chakra bind options.  (The soulbinder's extra chakra binds should apply to both Totemist and Incarnate).

I've never seen the Soulbinder, do you mean the Soul Manifester? If the Soulbinder is a Dual-Incarnum class, I'd take that over Psion levels personally. Dual-Incarnum builds are impossible due to the fact that they never made a class like the MT or UM. The other problem with going Totemist/Incarnate is the fact that you can't use Chakra binds or Soulmelds granted by the other class for Soulmelds not from that class' list. But the extra Essentia it would grant may be worth something in the long-run.

Quote
Psion instead of warmind gets you a *lot* of extra powers known and power points.
Taking warblade and crusader later on let you get most of the good stuff you would have gotten in your build.

Taking it too late however, leaves a large number of options off-limit. And only a single level means I can only get a single 1st level stance unless I spend feats.

Quote
It could be that it would be worth it to take legacy champion to advance soulbinder.  I'm not sure.

Taking double chakra bind (totem chakra) seems to me to be a wonderful and obvious pick.  Extra Essentia (or whatever it is called) might also be worth it.

Yes, it does. And if my build could afford it, I would have done so in a heartbeat. Alas, my version can't get it until 21st unless I drop more levels of Totemist for Soul Manifester.

Quote
Mine gives up a significant amount of BAB - fractional bab would help that.

Best,
David

P.S.  Frankly, I still don't like my build that much, but don't know what else to do.

As I've said above, I dislike the Fractional variant due to the confusion it gives me (I suck at any kind of math involving fractions). This is what deters me from that option.

Quote
Rogue BAB, Good will, poor everything else.

Perfect. It fortifies a weak-point in my build, and allows me to free up maneuvers late-game.


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Blade2718

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2008, 01:34:00 AM »
I'm not sure where your triple-threat is.  All I see is Tanking, Tanking, and Manifesting (which has the potential to be a cross between arcane and divine, but not with just War Mind manifesting).

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2008, 04:23:55 PM »
I'm not sure where your triple-threat is.  All I see is Tanking, Tanking, and Manifesting (which has the potential to be a cross between arcane and divine, but not with just War Mind manifesting).

What? Being two tanks at once doesn't count as a double-threat? Last I checked, 60mm of tungsten was scary on its own. Staring down the barrel of two tanks is practically asking for some one to put you out of your misery first.


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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2008, 11:02:15 PM »
Hmm, I'm just stabbing into the dark here but wouldn't bloodlines be vastly benificial to this build, I always thought legacy champ only increased the amount of class abilities for one class, not all of them (may be wrong here) and the blood lines placed at maybe 3 and 6th level may help the build out, and then keeping two levels of legacy champion.  That may accomplish the same goal with less HP though, depends on how leg champ works.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2008, 11:40:19 PM »
Hmm, I'm just stabbing into the dark here but wouldn't bloodlines be vastly benificial to this build, I always thought legacy champ only increased the amount of class abilities for one class, not all of them (may be wrong here) and the blood lines placed at maybe 3 and 6th level may help the build out, and then keeping two levels of legacy champion.  That may accomplish the same goal with less HP though, depends on how leg champ works.

I'm using the Legacy Champion to advance the Soul Manifester class, rather than having 6/8d4 HD.


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Blade2718

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2008, 12:12:14 AM »
I'm not sure where your triple-threat is.  All I see is Tanking, Tanking, and Manifesting (which has the potential to be a cross between arcane and divine, but not with just War Mind manifesting).

What? Being two tanks at once doesn't count as a double-threat? Last I checked, 60mm of tungsten was scary on its own. Staring down the barrel of two tanks is practically asking for some one to put you out of your misery first.
As I understand the term "threat", you need to fill multiple party roles.  If I just wanted to kill things quick, then I'd go with a Will-friendly Frenzied Berserker.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: A Triple Threat Build
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2008, 04:04:31 PM »
I'm not sure where your triple-threat is.  All I see is Tanking, Tanking, and Manifesting (which has the potential to be a cross between arcane and divine, but not with just War Mind manifesting).

What? Being two tanks at once doesn't count as a double-threat? Last I checked, 60mm of tungsten was scary on its own. Staring down the barrel of two tanks is practically asking for some one to put you out of your misery first.
As I understand the term "threat", you need to fill multiple party roles.  If I just wanted to kill things quick, then I'd go with a Will-friendly Frenzied Berserker.

Well, I do have a nice amount of Skills to pick from, and my Soulmelds can easily make me into a Skill Monkey/Scout.


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