Author Topic: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?  (Read 15075 times)

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Josh

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Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« on: December 28, 2008, 10:31:14 PM »
There are two possible states of consideration:

1) Shadowrun is an Action Adventure Game
2) Shadowrun is not an Action Adventure Game

If shadowrun is an AA game.  It is lacking.  The game does not offer meaningful tactical choices as well as similar games (Savage Worlds and d20). 

If shadowrun is not an AA game, well it does not have the mechanics to make it otherwise.

Two interesting ideas taken from the game, in 4th, that I can immediately think of, are defense and tiered character creation.

In 3ed you had to decide how many dice went into defense and how many went into offense.  So in order to hit you made yourself vulnerable.  The start of a good idea, just poorly done.

Tiered character gen was an interesting idea.  Essentially your character picked how they wanted to solve problems.  You want to use money and contacts, have that be the highest.  You want to use magic, have that be the highest.  Again poor implementation, but knocking on the door of greatness.
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Shaun

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2008, 10:51:21 PM »
If shadowrun is an AA game.  It is lacking.  The game does not offer meaningful tactical choices as well as similar games (Savage Worlds and d20). 
Having zero experience playing Savage Worlds, I can't comment on that. However, I don't know that your other claim - that d20 offers more meaningful tactical choices - is true. You say it is, but I'm not sure that's the case. I'm not saying that it isn't true, but you haven't really provided any evidence for your claim.

That being said, I agree with most of the rest of your post. However, I do think that the setting is an important element in the game. Important enough to be a major factor in whether or not the game is, in fact, good. Also, all of these are separate issues from whether or not the game is fun.
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Josh

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2008, 11:08:59 PM »
In d20 (and savage worlds)your characters have a myriad of "abilities" both inherent (attack, aid another, disarm) and based on class/feats (cleave, fireball etc). 

Shadowrun offers choices on par with 2nd ed DnD. 


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Shaun

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2008, 11:49:43 PM »
In Shadowrun, your characters have a myriad of "abilities" based on chosen skills, equipment (including cyber and bioware), and qualities (such as being a Magician or Adept). These abilities - especially those that come from equipment and skills - can very seriously alter the tactics that a character can use. Additionally, you have much better options for pre-planning and adjusting your strategy accordingly, due to mechanisms like hacking and astral travel. These are all meaningful tactical options, and are superior to those found in 2nd ed. D&D.

You have yet to demonstrate that the choices available in d20 (and I'm assuming that you mean the D&D 3/3.5 ruleset), are somehow more meaningful than those in Shadowrun.

Like I said, the game has problems, but I don't think that combat and tactics are the areas you should be looking in for criticism of the game. If you cited the fact that there are a number of rules that require GM interpretation, coupled with the fact that the developers don't often discuss what the intent of those particular rules were, you'd probably have a point. However, those are issues that are easily dealt with before play begins, so, while it's certainly a weakness in the system, it's not a game-breaker by any means.

Also, a point I failed to address previously:
Quote from: Josh
In 3ed you had to decide how many dice went into defense and how many went into offense.  So in order to hit you made yourself vulnerable.  The start of a good idea, just poorly done.
While this statement is true, it has no bearing on 4th edition SR. SR4 puts a higher value on ranged combat from a covered position, which provides protection (in the form of a negative dice-pool modifier applied to the attacker), while hindering the covered character's ability to return fire. In order to have an optimal to-hit chance, an attacker must step out of cover, thus leaving himself in a vulnerable position. I'd argue that SR4 handles this in a much better way than SR3's clumsy Combat Pool did.
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Josh

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2008, 04:16:05 AM »
Quote
However, those are issues that are easily dealt with before play begins, so, while it's certainly a weakness in the system, it's not a game-breaker by any means.

You mean, if you fix the system yourself you can overcome the problems?  I agree.

Personally, I play another game. 
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Shaun

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2008, 05:28:23 AM »
You mean, if you fix the system yourself you can overcome the problems?  I agree.
No. I mean that certain rules were intentionally left up to the GM to interpret. The reason behind them is ostensibly so that the system can suit multiple styles of play and interpretations of the setting. So, by making rulings before those situations come up, you're simply avoiding potential confusion on rules where there are multiple possible rulings. It's not "fixing" the system.

Quote from: Josh
Personally, I play another game.
That's fine, but the argument isn't whether or not you like it. This is pretty much a non sequitur. I don't think it's asking too much for you to address the point's that I've brought up. Unless you'd like to concede the argument? :P

Edited for grammar.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 02:20:29 PM by Shaun »
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Josh

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2008, 06:15:53 AM »
You mean, if you fix the system yourself you can overcome the problems?  I agree.
No. I mean that certain rules that were intentionally left up to the GM to interpret. The reason behind them is ostensibly so that the system can suit multiple styles of play and interpretations of the setting. So, by making rulings before those situations come up, you're simply avoiding potential confusion on rules where there are multiple possible rulings. It's not "fixing" the system.
I've never seen a rule like that.  What do you mean?


Quote
Quote from: Josh
Personally, I play another game.
That's fine, but the argument isn't whether or not you like it. This is pretty much a non sequitur. I don't think it's asking too much for you to address the point's that I've brought up. Unless you'd like to concede the argument? :P
Correct.  My point is how "I" deal with an inferior game.

Is that point actually contested?  That SR is not a good execution of an AA game? 

The world is actually pretty interesting.  (somebody should base a game on it. ha, ha)
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Shaun

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2008, 01:30:05 PM »
I've never seen a rule like that.  What do you mean?
Certain Matrix rules come to mind, particularly dealing with Agents. I don't have my books with me, so I can't cite anything.

Quote from: Josh
Is that point actually contested?  That SR is not a good execution of an AA game? 
Yes, it is. At least for the reasons that you cite. You have yet to provide any evidence of this:

Quote from: Josh
If shadowrun is an AA game.  It is lacking.  The game does not offer meaningful tactical choices as well as similar games (Savage Worlds and d20).
And this:

Quote from: Josh
Shadowrun offers choices on par with 2nd ed DnD.
You've simply asserted that both of these are the case, yet haven't backed anything up. I have, in fact, rebutted both of these points, and you have failed to address my counterpoints.

Now, I'm sure that a case can be made that there are superior games in existence, but that's not what we're arguing here.
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Wordman

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2008, 09:12:12 PM »
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 03:03:35 AM by Wordman »
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Josh

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2008, 10:02:26 PM »
Josh, are you actually interested in the answer to the question asked in the subject of this topic? Or is this just a feeble attempt at the Socratic method, poorly disguising another illustration of how Josh Is Right?
"I" am promoting the point that given the fact that SR4 is not as good as other games, so I don't play it.

The situation is complicated by the fact that the setup is so complicated.  What people don't realize is that there is a huge body of discussion surrounding what seems to be a simple topic.  Then there are exceptions and caveats and nits to pick.  So the trick is to try to answer what people ask and give enough to help them understand without giving too much and confusing them.

Of course I started the topic.  so maybe this will clear things up.


Shadowrun is not a very good tactical combat game, because there are better ones. 

AND I am not particularly interested in AA games anyway.

AND it is worth noting that none of the people I game with want to play in the setting of Shadowrun.  But if they did it would be simpler for me to Mod a good game than play SR anyway.

The argument that has been placed forward is that SR is tactical and that it is good enough.  I have not found it to be so.  And I am further turned off by the fact that all of the mechanically potentially interesting bits or 3ed were removed, rendering the game bland. 

So how to counter my issue? 
start by:
1) Give me something something mechanically unique about the SR4 system, something tactical, strategic or otherwise AA
or
2) Give me something well executed about the SR4 system, something that makes the AA game work well.  (elegance, emergent complexity,  effectiveness or even something Awesome or Cool.

Finish by:
Getting enough of those points.

Hey, I did not comprehensively read the whole book, maybe I missed the awesome part.
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Shaun

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2008, 10:33:03 PM »
Bollocks. You're moving the goalposts. You made claims in the original post, those were rebutted. The burden of proof is on you to show that...
Quote from: Josh
If shadowrun is an AA game.  It is lacking.  The game does not offer meaningful tactical choices as well as similar games (Savage Worlds and d20).

and...
Quote from: Josh
Shadowrun offers choices on par with 2nd ed DnD.

You have not done either of these. As it stands, these are naked assertions.

Also:
Quote from: Josh
Shadowrun is not a very good tactical combat game, because there are better ones.
Just because there are better games doesn't make SR4 not good in its own right, and those other games may not be better at doing the things SR4 does. That would be like saying that Toyotas are bad cars because Ferraris exist.

Beyond that, you're arguing based on opinion. Obviously, you don't like it. But that's not germane to the topic.

Come on, man. You're arguing like a creationist. You can do better than this.
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Wordman

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2008, 10:38:50 PM »
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 03:03:51 AM by Wordman »
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tsuyoshikentsu

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2008, 04:40:56 AM »
There are two possible states of consideration:

1) Shadowrun is an Action Adventure Game
2) Shadowrun is not an Action Adventure Game

If shadowrun is an AA game.  It is lacking.  The game does not offer meaningful tactical choices as well as similar games (Savage Worlds and d20). 

If shadowrun is not an AA game, well it does not have the mechanics to make it otherwise.

Sophistically, Shadowrun is nWoD. ;)

Now, I'm AFB (at least AFSR4B) right now, so I couldn't tell you if this is in the book, but I suspect it is.  Every single Shadowrun game I've ever played has been immensely tactical, but not in combat.  What does that mean?  It means that Shadowrun works a lot like a TV episode: there's a set format that most adventures take.  That format looks like this.

Get lead on job <--------
          |                      |
          V                     |
Negotiate with Johnson--
          |
          V
Legwork (Gathering info on target/setting/employer/whoever)  <----
          |                                                                              |
          V                                                                             |
Develop plan of action-------------------------------------------
          |
          V
Actually go on run------------------------------------------------
          |                                                                              |
          V                                                                              V
Complete run                                                          Get double-crossed
          |                                                                              |
          |                                                                              V
          |                                                                Kill that rat bastard Johnson
          |                                                                              |
          V                                                                              |
Collect money <--------------------------------------------------


The planning stage can (and usually is) immensely tactical, to the point of absolute absurdity.  I am reminded of one time where the DM had surrounded a building with about thirty people, and we were supposed to help those inside the building out.  We were SUPPOSED to cause a distraction or something; I don't know.  We ended up planning an assault for literally an hour, during which time the GM's face kept sinking deeper and deeper into his hands.  When we implemented said assault, the GM just looked at our die rolls and started wiping off about five people at a time.

None of this was done with houserules of any kind.

So I reject your notion that Shadowrun isn't tactical at all; it is most definitely so on a long-term scale.  So let's examine a short-term scale.

First, have you read the expanded combat rules in Arsenal?  I disagree with your assertion about the simplicity of the core rules, which I'll get to later, but leaving that aside have you ever seen them?  They add a lot of complexity to combat, if you want it there.

I can't argue about the exact number of options in combat as I'm AFB, but I will say this: the reason that you see a lot of shooting in SR4 is that shooting is pretty much the optimal thing to do.  And that is not a bad thing.  I can't really argue about the number of tactical options, but I can argue about tactics themselves.  I utterly reject the notion that SR4 has to be tactical to be a good action-adventure game.

SR4 has a lot of sneaking, that's true.  But it's also a very beer-and-pretzels, fast-paced "hack-n-slash."  In fact, I would argue that Shadowrun is the first-person shooter of RPGs: it's fast, furious, has a high body count, and a higher explosion count.  (Also, it's a good setting to have lots of flaming barrels, but the PnP version doesn't have a graphics engine to show off so they're kind of pointless.)  SR missions aren't designed about pulling off the perfectly-planned caper; they're about making absurd plans and then having to blast your way out anyway when shit goes wrong.  And that, to a lot of us, is fun.

I freely admit that it is not the wargame descendant that D&D is.  But if you want to show that an AA game has to be tactical to be good, you have a long way to go.
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juton

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2009, 11:09:58 PM »
I've only had the privelege of playing 1-2 Shadowrun games, I've found them to be as strategically and tactically sophisticated as d20. In both games efforts where made to learn about the target and their location (the equivalent of scry and arcane eye in d20). We planned out how to complete the objectives, most of the time it was only a few minutes but our plans gave us a big advantage.

As for tactics we where never in want of options. Sure, there where a lot less grapple/trip/disarms than in d20, but that's because you use guns. In SR we used smoke to cover our approach (or create a false flank), or used tear gas to flush out the baddies. I particularly enjoyed using a high explosive mine to create a new skylight in the badguy's ceiling.

@ Josh, You've said you don't like SR, that you think it's a bad game. Why post this topic then?

Josh

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2009, 01:34:09 AM »
I don't think SR the idea is bad.  Also my argument is that 4ed killed most of the good ideas from 3ed.

From this and the WoD board I think I have come up with the issue.

If people don't know or understand what tactics in a game are, you can't reach them by saying what a game does not have.  You have to show them something that does have it.

So then the question is, what game is a good example of tactics?
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Shaun

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2009, 04:44:00 PM »
So, the problem is that you're using a very specific definition of tactics that's different from the norm? Couldn't you have saved time by specifying what the definition of tactics is for the purposes of this discussion?

Quote from: Josh
Also my argument is that 4ed killed most of the good ideas from 3ed.
You never actually made or supported this argument.
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tsuyoshikentsu

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2009, 11:00:12 PM »
So then the question is, what game is a good example of tactics?
Why don't you answer that, ? ?????????
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Josh

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2009, 11:18:24 PM »
So then the question is, what game is a good example of tactics?
Why don't you answer that, ? ?????????

because answering the question is important, not the answer itself.  My question is how to get you to figure the answer out yourself.  We have established that if I say something everyone leaps to disprove it, rather than see if it's true.

So I pose the question to you.  What game is a good example?  and let us go backwards.

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tsuyoshikentsu

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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2009, 12:01:31 AM »
So I pose the question to you.  What game is a good example?  and let us go backwards.

SR4, D&D4.  In absence of proof that they're not, I say they are.
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Re: Whats the problem with 4th Edition Shadowrun?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2009, 03:02:32 AM »
So then the question is, what game is a good example of tactics?

I can answer that: Warhammer Quest. The game is so completely random that you have to rely on someone who has a solid tactical mind in order to survive. They need to be able to think on their feet in order to cope with sheer chance.


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