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Caedrus

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Mystic Theurge Handbook
« on: December 28, 2008, 07:47:38 PM »
Welcome to my Mystic Theurge Handbook.

Things I should say up front:


Sometimes I write from Rules as Written (RAW), sometimes Rules as Intended (RAI). If that is a problem for you, please stop reading now. Caelic makes a number of valid points on RAW vs. RAI hereCreditsNew Term

Bounce (v): to use a non-optimised class as a springboard or base into a more optimised class.

Dual Caster Classes
Lyrist Handbook for the discussion on this class. Other options include the Arcane Hierophant Handbook from Pyromantic, and The_Monkey_King has a list of all the dual-casters in his Double Progression Class Optimisation Guide.

What are the advantages of the Mystic Theurge?

1. You can advance both divine and arcane casting.
2. You can decide, each level, which arcane and divine casting class to advance. This skill is little known, but completely legal, Rules as Written.
3. There is no advancement-bias; you can use a Mystic Theurge to advance Sorceror-and-Druid just as easily as Cleric-and-Wizard, or indeed any Arcane or Divine advancement class.
4. Relatively easy entry.
5. The potential for SAD (Single Attribute Dependence) builds, or more likely DAD (Dual Attribute Dependence) builds.

What are the disadvantages of a Mystic Theurge?

1. Awful Hit Dice.
2. Awful Base Attack Progression.
3. Awful Reflex and Fortitude Saves.
4. No Special Abilities for advancing levels.
5. Lack of direction after the minimum + 10 levels of Mystic Theurge point.

Comparatively speaking, the Arcane Hierophant gets better Hit Dice, and more abilities. The same is true of the True Necromancer. The Fochlucan Lyrist gets, well, pretty much everything better. So, why be a Mystic Theurge? Well:

1. To bounce into another dual caster class swiftly, and with minimal prerequisites.
2. To boost your main caster class with secondary casting.
3. You are going to use an early-entry method to maximise the use of Mystic Theurge.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 07:58:09 PM by Caedrus »
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Caedrus

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2008, 07:48:20 PM »
Advancing into another dual class swiftly. Early Entry Methods.WotC have said no to this methodhere, the Anyspell method method uses the spell Anyspell to emulate an Arcane Spell from a Divine spell. Customer Service were asked to validate the legality here, and it was shot down. However, it must be said that Customer Service do not always enjoy a great amount of internal consistency, so discretion allows me to include it here. Back hereat post 12, Bill Bisco presents a pretty valid argument. Take from that what you will.

So is there a better way? There certainly is. Read Post #5 for what I shall egotistically call The Caedrus Method.  :D
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 08:53:30 PM by Caedrus »
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Caedrus

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2008, 07:48:55 PM »
Useful Feats for Aspiring Mystic Theurges - UPDATING SOON!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 08:53:57 PM by Caedrus »
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Caedrus

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2008, 07:49:34 PM »
Suggested Builds - UPDATING SOON!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 08:54:25 PM by Caedrus »
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Caedrus

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2008, 07:50:02 PM »
Is there a holeproof, legal, RAW early entry into Mystic Theurge?

I believe so. This is mine. I am always happy for constructive feedback, but here goes. Do remember that there are a myriad of variations on this theme.

Step 1: At level one, find the ability to cast spells spontaneously, and take the feat Heighten Spell (Player's Handbook, Pg 95)

Method A: Take a level of Sorceror.
Method B: Take a level of Bard.
Method C: Take a Spontaneous Divine Caster (Unearthed Arcana, Pg 64, DM fiat).
Method D: Take the Magical Training feat (Player's Guide to Faerun, Pg 41, Campaign Specific, Elf or Human only); you will need a spare feat spot, either from being human, of by using Flaws.

I recommend taking a level of bard. The reasons being: Skill Points, Bardic Music, entry into other Prestige Classes, and Languages.

Step 2: Take a level of an Arcane Casting Class.

Method A: Take a level of Sorceror.
Method B: Take a level of Wizard.
Method C: Take a level of whatever Arcane Caster class you like.

I recommend taking Wizard; if you had taken Sorceror as your 1st level, you can take whatever class you like.

Step 3: Take a level of a Divine Casting Class, and take the feat Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon, Pg 101), and as described here.

Method A: Take a level of Cleric.
Method B: Take a level of Druid.
Method C: TAke a level of whatever Divine Caster class you like.

I recommend taking Cleric for the awesome abilities that domains grant you. The Planning Domain is always a good choice, as is the Inquisition Domain.

By level 3, you must have 6 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion). This should not be a problem.

So, here goes:

Getting into Mystic Theurge at Level 4.

Skills: You have by now got the necessary skills. Knowledge (Aracana) and Knowledge (Religion) will be class skills for you.

Feats:

You have taken Versatile Spellcaster, which allows you to expend two spell slots to cast a spell one level higher.

You have taken Heighten Spell, which increases the level of the spell to which the feat is applied, unlike every other metamagic feat. This is an important point, and I request that before using this feat, please do read the description of the feat, and of metamagic feats in the PHB.

Now, according to the FAQ on the WotC Website, you can give up (as given in the example) two 1st level spells to cast a metamagic-enhanced spell.

Therefore, if we sacrifice two 1st level spell slots, we can cast one of the 1st level spells as a 2nd level spell, as enhanced by the Heighten Spell feat.

What about the whole plural thing?

Some keen-eyed individuals have pointed out in the past that Mystic Theurge requires you to cast 2nd level arcane, and 2nd level Divine spells. Plural. Two. More than one.

That isn't a problem. You see, even if (for example) a Wizard / Cleric has an Intelligence and Wisdom of 12, they will gain three 1st-level spells per day. You will need four to convert into the two 2nd level spells required to meet this prerequisite, but since you can convert 2x 0th level spells into a 1st level spell (again using Versatile Spellcaster), you get the spell slots you need.

I cannot see any reason why this construction isn't completely legal, Rules as Written. Hell, it is even supported by the WotC website! Of course, I am happy to hear intelligent arguments to the contrary.

Thus, I present to you what I think are the two best build stubs for Mystic Theurges:

Bard 1 / Wizard 1 / Cleric 1 into Mystic Theurge, OR
Any damn class you please / Sorceror 1 / Cleric 1 into Mystic Theurge.

There's more to come...
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 08:50:46 PM by Caedrus »
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Caedrus

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2008, 07:50:30 PM »
[This Place Reserved]
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Caedrus

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2008, 07:51:52 PM »
[Final Place Reserved]

And for those who have stopped to read this guide, please understand that this has been ported straight from the other board, and it WILL be updated. Please give me a day or so to make it pretty before the comments roll in!

Caedrus.
Goodnight, Gentlemen; and Thank You.

ninjarabbit

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2008, 09:06:53 PM »
A few more builds

dwarf cleric3/wizard2/runesmith1/MT10/x4, able to cast arcane spells in full plate via runesmith

duskblade13/ur-priest2/MT5, able to channel spells like harm into a full attack, alternatively you could go duskblade13/divinecrusader2 with the destruction domain/MT5 for a similiar effect


Brainpiercing

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2009, 05:03:32 AM »
Still needs the SAD build for completeness:

Sorc1/Favoured Soul1/CC1/MT10/TN7

9th level everything advancing Sorc and FS, possible DMM cheese, etc. Alternatively:

DN1/Fav.Soul1/CC1/MT10/TN7  MORE DMM cheese due to double turn attempts, but weaker spell selection.

Surreal

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2009, 06:17:10 AM »
I just noticed that the Shadowcaster can qualify for Mystic Theuge (ToM 117). It's not really a powerful option, but it's an option nonetheless. They also botched up the wording, where they intended for the shadowcaster to represent the arcane side in an MT build, but it's not actually specified. This could lead to a complete Shadowcaster 3/Wizard 3/Noctumancer 10/MT 4 build which gets you 9th level spells and mysteries.

Shadowcaster/Ur-priest builds are also an obvious entry for MT. Shadowcasters have the fort save and get bonus feats to qualify for UP, but are missing a couple skills. This is easily remedied by starting as a wizard or sorcerer, then "swapping" the levels for shadowcaster (ToM sidebar p.115) so you can retain your original skills, plus due to another poor editing job it looks like you might keep your familiar (or ACF) even if you've swapped the first level out.
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Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills

Arcane-surge

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2009, 08:58:51 AM »
Still needs the SAD build for completeness:

Sorc1/Favoured Soul1/CC1/MT10/TN7

9th level everything advancing Sorc and FS, possible DMM cheese, etc. Alternatively:

DN1/Fav.Soul1/CC1/MT10/TN7  MORE DMM cheese due to double turn attempts, but weaker spell selection.

Unless I'm looking at the wrong True Necromancer (Libris Mortis, right?), that doesn't actually get 9th level anything. Each spellcasting class winds up three levels behind (one for the other class, one for CC, and one for the level of TN that doesn't advance its casting).
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2009, 12:11:03 PM »
Still needs the SAD build for completeness:

Sorc1/Favoured Soul1/CC1/MT10/TN7

9th level everything advancing Sorc and FS, possible DMM cheese, etc. Alternatively:

DN1/Fav.Soul1/CC1/MT10/TN7  MORE DMM cheese due to double turn attempts, but weaker spell selection.

Unless I'm looking at the wrong True Necromancer (Libris Mortis, right?), that doesn't actually get 9th level anything. Each spellcasting class winds up three levels behind (one for the other class, one for CC, and one for the level of TN that doesn't advance its casting).
Damn, I thought I had checked that. Probably I just overlooked it. I thought TN advances casting all the way. But if you're right, that sucks, and proves once again that WOTC just doesn't like spontaneous casters, even though they are mostly not stronger at all.

Akalsaris

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2009, 07:11:17 PM »
Here's a build with only a little MT, but it definitely helps the build out.

Illumian Druid 3/Duskblade 1/MT 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Druid +4
- uses versatile spellcaster to enter
- Aeshkrau sigil sets strength for bonus spells, gives +2 CL to both classes.  Then WS's into really strong things for lots of bonus spell slots, which are then used to fuel versatile caster.  Pet can deliver touch spells from Duskblade.
- CL 19 (20) Druid and 17th level wildshaping, CL 13 (15) duskblade, for 9th level divine and 4th level arcane spells. 
- Pet has abilities of a 20th level animal companion and 13th level familiar

Feats:
1st char: Heighten Spell
3rd char: Versatile Caster
6th char: Obtain Familiar (Duskblade)
9th char: Natural Spell
12th char: Companion Spellbound
15th char: Natural Bond
18th char: Quicken Spell

ninjarabbit

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2009, 08:11:43 PM »
A so-so build but still interesting

battlesorcerer7/abjurantchampion3/divinecrusader2/MT8

9th level arcane spells and 9th level spells in one domain

Akalsaris

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2009, 01:31:49 AM »
A so-so build but still interesting

battlesorcerer7/abjurantchampion3/divinecrusader2/MT8

9th level arcane spells and 9th level spells in one domain

That is nifty.

Optimator

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2009, 01:29:33 AM »
That is pretty cool. 

Solo

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2009, 06:37:57 AM »
Why no mention of Wizard5/Mindbender1/Ur Priest2/MT10/Whatever Arcane Advancment2?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Omen of Peace

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2009, 10:01:01 AM »
Is there a holeproof, legal, RAW early entry into Mystic Theurge?
Small problem: you're going to need to be Illumian or to take 2 Practiced Spellcaster feats for it to work.

Quote from: Heighten Spell
The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Quote from: PHB 171 - Caster Level
the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and .

You need CL 3 to cast 2nd level spells as a Cleric or a Wizard.

Bring on the rule of Illumian Mystic Theurges !

(And that's why the Miracle at 6th level doesn't quite work - I think (I don't remember the exact build). A Shadowcraft Mage can still pull an early Miracle thanks to the Earth Spell CL increase.)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 10:02:53 AM by Omen of Peace »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2009, 01:29:48 AM »
Once again, the dark powers of taint allow early entry.

Eldritch corruption: among other benefits, 3/day you can deal two con damage to an ally in exchange for heightening a spell by two levels.

Necropolitan Druid1/Wizard1 qualifies, though you'll have to work a little bit for that moderate depravity prereq.

Basically, you can get into mystic theurge by sacrificing your animal companion's health in exchange for badass cantrips.
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Caedrus

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Re: Mystic Theurge Handbook
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2009, 08:33:04 AM »
Omen,

Quote
You need CL 3 to cast 2nd level spells as a Cleric or a Wizard.

I agree with all your statements, but how does then a wizard with Precocious Apprentice cast a 2nd level spell; or, as given here, how then does a 1st level sorceror cast an extended shield? In the example given, a shield spell enhanced with extend spell is memorised using a 2nd level slot, so this is impossible for a wizard, but it is noted as legal.

Certainly, it seems paradoxical based on your valid rules argument, yet it is specifically noted as legal in the example given.

[Y'know, I can't stand Illumians with the neon and the shaved head look - maybe that's the basis of my argument!]

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