Author Topic: Gameology-Fu  (Read 69393 times)

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Elennsar

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #460 on: November 06, 2008, 04:39:51 PM »
Reading comprehension as in a skill? Probably not. As in "actually using it"? Give me a moment to show how well you're using it.

Its not even a bad roll, its a refusal to roll.

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If so, that still doesn't mean that they view complaining as bad.

No, but they're not acting like they're okay with the idea of complaining, either. Am I missing something? That's been known to happen. Not my impression, however.

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Erm... biased towards what exactly? No-one here knows your age, religion or skin colour.

Biased towards (or more precisely, against) me, personally.

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"Misinterpreting" is not something a person sets out to do.

"Refusing to try and sort out what someone actually means" instead of "say something based on what you think the person probably means before reading what they actually wrote" is, at times. This strongly seems to be one of those.

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Would you call yourself stauch then? Resolute?

"Persistent". Quotes intentional. I'm certainly being stubborn. I'm simply being stubborn for a reason instead of merely to be stubborn.

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IIRC, you said that it is hard to roleplay a highly optimised character (If this is not what you said, I accept my error). Suggesting any correlation between roleplaying and optimisation is committing the Stormwind Fallacy. You seem to have misinterpreted the Stormwind Fallacy.

Not quite. I can dig up my exact words if you want them, but the gist:

Me: It is perfectly possible to roleplay a highly optimized character. It is perfectly possible to suck at roleplaying and make a highly antioptimized character (as in, one that mechanically sucks...a Wizard with Int 8, say).

It is difficult at best to make a highly optimized and believable character.

And making a believable character...not necessarily realistic, but in a character that conforms to the laws of an Earth where Superman is real, or another world where dragons are real, or whatever...is part of "being interested in roleplaying" (as opposed to just cranking out the best numbers you can as an intellectual exercise.)

Now, one can be good at both "acting" and "number crunching", that is not the problem.

There. Any further issues with my statement, PM me.



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EjoThims

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #461 on: November 06, 2008, 04:59:17 PM »
You seem to think you can do no wrong. Even PI can fuck shit up.
Random nitpick: If anyone deserves this accusation it would be me.

I hold PI in a far higher regard than you, and I cannot recall him ever needlessly running his mouth or clogging up multiple threads with irrelevant flaming.

So using him as the example sets a far, far stronger precedent that even the best of us do fuck up, but unless we act like Elennsar about it, we don't become hated for it.

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"non-combatively correct myself" when other people are refusing to accept that their intereptation was wrong.

There interpretation was not wrong. The words you chose to attempt to get them to interpret it the way you wanted were.

You need to correct yourself. Your own words. Not attempt to change how people read the words you already said.

Prime32

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #462 on: November 06, 2008, 05:00:42 PM »
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Erm... biased towards what exactly? No-one here knows your age, religion or skin colour.

Biased towards (or more precisely, against) me, personally.
But what about you? You really need to give more detail here. They aren't biased against people with Templar avs, or people with usernames starting with "E"...

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"Misinterpreting" is not something a person sets out to do.

"Refusing to try and sort out what someone actually means" instead of "say something based on what you think the person probably means before reading what they actually wrote" is, at times. This strongly seems to be one of those.
That isn't misinterpreting - that's twisting your words.

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IIRC, you said that it is hard to roleplay a highly optimised character (If this is not what you said, I accept my error). Suggesting any correlation between roleplaying and optimisation is committing the Stormwind Fallacy. You seem to have misinterpreted the Stormwind Fallacy.

It is difficult at best to make a highly optimized and believable character.

And making a believable character...not necessarily realistic, but in a character that conforms to the laws of an Earth where Superman is real, or another world where dragons are real, or whatever...is part of "being interested in roleplaying" (as opposed to just cranking out the best numbers you can as an intellectual exercise.)
See, you can make unbelievable characters through roleplaying too (like that guy with the +1 throwing vorpal penis, or worse). I don't really see having a Strength score that is 2 points higher than someone else's as being unbelievable in a world where superstrength is common.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #463 on: November 06, 2008, 05:01:29 PM »
I think Uber was saying that if anyone deserves to be accused of thinking he can do no wrong, it is him.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #464 on: November 06, 2008, 05:05:17 PM »
"Bizzare black and white world view" (quoting an actual reason).
Drop it. Fucking drop it. Do you have another example? Because if not, what you've told us is that "Oh no, I want to argue for 15 pages because of 1 fu point"

Which, btw, is exactly what Meg has said NOT to do. Odds are (looking at what everyone has said) most of those points are valid.
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EjoThims

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #465 on: November 06, 2008, 05:08:53 PM »
I think Uber was saying that if anyone deserves to be accused of thinking he can do no wrong, it is him.

Ah. I see now. I thought he was attempting to say that he would have been the better example in the discussion.

Elennsar

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #466 on: November 06, 2008, 05:09:21 PM »
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But what about you? You really need to give more detail here. They aren't biased against people with Templar avs, or people with usernames starting with "E"...

Presumably not the former, at least.

Since I'm the only one with one, I don't think we can tell.

More seriously: "We think this is true of Elennsar. We're not going to acknowledge anything contradicting what we think is true." kind of bias.

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That isn't misinterpreting - that's twisting your words.
Misinterpeting = interpeting falsely. Am I missing a technically-that-isn't-what-the-word-means point?

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See, you can make unbelievable characters through roleplaying too (like that guy with the +1 throwing vorpal penis, or worse). I don't really see having a Strength score that is 2 points higher than someone else's as being unbelievable in a world where superstrength is common.

Right, but a person with every trait of theirs perfectly set up for maximum advantage and minimum penalty is.

Even in say, the SEALS, it would probably be better for a SEAL with Charisma 13 and Dexterity 16 (at level 1, assuming point buy) to go for Dex 17 and Charisma 10...but most SEALS don't have that.

Of course, 17/10 isn't unbelievable, but I could go on from there to get to my point. I think we need to divert to a new thread for a detailed discussion, however, so where to put it?
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ZeroSum

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #467 on: November 06, 2008, 05:55:55 PM »
Elennsar, consider this: Instead of the player being a god crafting his character, instead he is selecting one character from a pool of possible characters. So it may be unlikely he selects a future SEAL with a 17 Dex and 10 Cha but there's no reason to restrict character creation to the likely, merely the possible.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 06:00:49 PM by ZeroSum »

Dan2

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #468 on: November 06, 2008, 05:59:10 PM »
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But what about you? You really need to give more detail here. They aren't biased against people with Templar avs, or people with usernames starting with "E"...

Presumably not the former, at least.

Since I'm the only one with one, I don't think we can tell.

More seriously: "We think this is true of Elennsar. We're not going to acknowledge anything contradicting what we think is true." kind of bias.

Before someone will acknowledge anything contradicting "what we think is true" about a person, there has to be something that contradicts "what we think is true".

When you came to this thread, you had points you wanted to make about the gameology-fu system.
They included, but were not necessarily limited to:
1) Gameology-fu should represent gameology contributions.
2) If it cannot, there needs to be a set definition that can demonstrate exactly what gameology-fu represents.
3) I have had my gameology-fu lowered, and I feel that it is unjust.

People on the boards read, responded, commented, and criticized your points.
An in-depth discussion about the merits of your points and the idea behind gameology-fu developed.
It was eventually decided that your recommendations for the gameology-fu system were either unnecessary or not possible.
Meg took extensive time to look understand your posts thoroughly and completely, and she came to the same conclusion.

Throughout this, you repeated the fact that you had lost gameology-fu as proof that the system needed changing.
Meg and several others contradicted you, and provided more information regarding why they thought that your points were earned.

You continued to repeat yourself.  People awarded negative G-fu.  Others explained to you what you were doing to earn the negative points.
You continued to repeat yourself, playing the victim of unfair -fu attacks.  People awarded negative G-fu. Others explained to you what you were doing to earn the negative points.
Repeat the cycle to the present moment...

You may have lost a few G-fu points unfairly.  Meg addressed the issue and clearly explained that she neither has the time, nor the desire to check each G-fu modification.
It was when you continued to "persist" and started playing the victim that more and more people awarded you negative points.

To tie it back in to the point that I quoted, you claim that people are unwilling to acknowledge contradictory evidence to their "personal" view of you.  You have not given them any.

You may have added to the site in other threads and forums, but here, you have certainly done nothing productive.

In closing, I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Straw_Man

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #469 on: November 06, 2008, 06:01:05 PM »
Guys, I'm curious, how many of you feel logic is going to penetrate that odd reasoning state he occupies? I'm impressed that people keep going, but really, can we open another thread for this? I'm counting way to many pages devoted to one persons disagreement with fu and the subsequent attempts to reach understanding.
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Elennsar

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #470 on: November 06, 2008, 06:05:48 PM »
A perfectly reasonable perspective, though not my own. (I look at it as something of a mix. Some elements ought to be beyond your control, but none of the things used in D&D chargen come to mind. Being left handed, if that mattered, might be worth saying is a 01-11 on percentile dice, though.)

Right. But after a certain level of unlikely, we get into the unbelievable.

"No, really, I honestly rolled six 18s using 3d6!"

' course, that's not min-maxing. But it is unlikely to the point of unbelievable (more about the player than the character, usually. If you beleive someone honestly did that without seeing their rolls, I have a bridge to sell you. Very cheap. : ) )

Dan:

So basically, people proved my point that it is awarded unfairly because people had a problem with me complaining that it is? That would be funny if it wasn't a serious complaint to begin with.

And if Meg is refusing to look at it point by point, then I hardly think it is reasonable to rely on any statement of hers (and this is not meant to attack Meg, this is an observation on anyone doing so that) "it is pretty much reasonable". Whether or not it is understandable and acceptable that she lacks the time (something I do not dispute), saying "I lack the time to actually give a fair judgment on this but I'm going to judge the situation anyway and expect my judgment to be treated as final" is grossly unreasonable.

People have not acknowledged any evidence I have presented and by their awarding of negative fu because they don't agree have provided additional evidence.

Straw: I'm curious how many people are actually interested in using the "What if WE are wrong?" perspective, instead of insisting that I use it but neglecting doing so to THEIR arguements.
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Dan2

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #471 on: November 06, 2008, 06:09:07 PM »
Guys, I'm curious, how many of you feel logic is going to penetrate that odd reasoning state he occupies? I'm impressed that people keep going, but really, can we open another thread for this? I'm counting way to many pages devoted to one persons disagreement with fu and the subsequent attempts to reach understanding.
I believe at one point, we might have been able to reach him, but at this point, too many people are speaking in contradiction to what he is saying for anyone to be able to logically wrestle him into realization.

He has holed up in a defensive "I'm being attacked" position, and has stopped really listening other than to refute contradictory statements through repetition.

Elennsar:

They didn't prove your point.
They awarded neg G-fu points because you were detracting from the site.

What will Meg refuse to look at point-by-point?

Negative G-fu is not evidence of G-fu being awarded unfairly.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 06:13:01 PM by Dan2 »

Elennsar

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #472 on: November 06, 2008, 06:11:38 PM »
You have stopped making any statements but attacks. Why is it "my fault" that you have nothing constructive to note as "good point, will keep in mind" but lots of "you suck and its all your fault and we did nothing"?

I can't blame you for my dislike of tofu, but you calling me dislikable because I've stated I dislike it is almost as absurd as what this has boiled down to.

You want communication, then stop with the attacks. Its really, really simple.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #473 on: November 06, 2008, 06:12:56 PM »
In a continuation of the collage...

Elenn: :notlistening

Sunic: :rolleyes

Boards: :wall
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

EjoThims

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #474 on: November 06, 2008, 06:13:34 PM »
You want communication, then stop with the attacks. Its really, really simple.

You're not being attacked Elennsar.

Your ideas are.

Your views are.

Even your actions are.

But you are not.

Once you come to terms with that simple fact you will be able to actually understand what we are all saying to you.

Straw_Man

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #475 on: November 06, 2008, 06:17:28 PM »

  Could we move this discussion here please: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2555.0

  Unless Meg or another mod would prefer a different venue. This thread is becoming a movie stuck on a loop and frankly it sucks to read.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

Dan2

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #476 on: November 06, 2008, 06:17:56 PM »
The fact that we have to refer to you ideas, views, actions by referencing your name, does not mean that you are being attacked.

Elennsar

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #477 on: November 06, 2008, 06:21:36 PM »
Once you stop pretending that you're not attacking me when you say that I'm being a whiny cunt and such, we can get back to criticism of my ideas.

You=plural you.

Sunic: Not at all, no.

Dan: No, the fact that you are saying "You are an idiot. You are a whiny cunt. You are ____." and saying that "what you are doing" with that being me protesting what you are doing to me is the above is attacking.

Straw: Fine by me if the thread will be used as intended, instead of used as "Someone complains, if we don't like them we bash them mercilessly and nothing gets solved".
But as a seperate "complain about fu there, instead of here"...good idea. Very good idea.
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EjoThims

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #478 on: November 06, 2008, 06:27:08 PM »
Once you stop pretending that you're not attacking me when you say that I'm being a whiny cunt and such, we can get back to criticism of my ideas.

Calling you a whiny cunt isn't attacking you. It's attacking your actions (namely those of behaving like a whiny cunt).

Elennsar

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Re: Gameology-Fu
« Reply #479 on: November 06, 2008, 06:29:02 PM »
No, it is quite directly attacking me.

Unless you've some definition of "attacking the individual" that is different than "calling the person something insulting and/or accusing them of doing bad things".
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.