Author Topic: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?  (Read 8152 times)

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AndyJames

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2008, 12:18:32 AM »
Oh, at the end of the day, I just had the Monk taken away to follow another destiny on another plane of existence on a very short jaunt to that plane of existence. Made things easier.

Josh

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2008, 01:36:55 AM »
My favorite DM PCs were terrible pains in the ass.  That way the PCs had them when they were needed but did as much as they could without them.

For example "Sir Cumference" was a hard hitting superhero brick with a heart of gold.  He was somewhat modeled after "the Tick" but he used to leap into lectures about the nature of morality with the slightest provocation.  He also insisted on Sundays off so he could go out evangelizing with his church buddies. 

When the PCs needed muscle, he was there.  But got rid of him asap so as to reduce the number of Jesus lectures they had to hear. 
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pfooti

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2008, 01:12:53 PM »
I'm pretty firmly opposed to DMPCs in all but the strangest situations. If you've got only three players, let them gestalt. If nobody in the party wants to play a healer, let someone take Leadership for a cleric. I find that DMPCs create conflicts of interest at best, and at worst, run the game. That's just my personal opinion, though.

In certain situations, though, a DMPC can be a great addition to a game. For example, in the Firefly-esque game that I'm working on for Eberron (I know, everybody and their brother is doing one of those), the captain/owner of the airship is a DMPC. That lets me guide the game in the direction I want, and also lets me make a PC who actually owns one of those insanely expensive airships without having to put it in the hands of a real player.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2008, 02:15:56 PM »
If no one wants to make a healer, direct them to the guide made by OneWinged4ngel. Done.
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Apupunchau

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2008, 10:35:36 PM »
In my current game my I use a DMPC for the game. I didn't want to and I prefer not to but the guy who was going to play our tank dropped out due to moving. So we went through a good portion of the adventure and it began to get tougher, it was a boxed adventure sons of Gruumush (sp?) so I didn't want to tone it down to far. So I asked the party (mainly casters, archers and a monk) if they wanted me to make up a fighter for the party and they said yes so I added him. At first I was uneasy about it but I made sure to make him useful for one thing. Charge in attack take damage, I have no problems with him dying which he almost has twice and I made him the stoic type so he doesn't really do a lot of interacting with regular NPC. I do however really get into roleplaying him when it's just him and the party and they seem to like that as well.

Orion

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2008, 11:43:56 PM »
I just finished Paizo's Shackled City, and one of the things I liked about it is that the DMPCs were continuous throughout the story, but they rotated in and out, so none of them turned into a real member of the party, but they were people we knew. They were just there to lend support as the DM saw fit. Worked great. Also, great DM, but that's something you can't legislate through rules. 

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2008, 10:06:51 AM »
DMPC's are great for DM's - terrible for PCs.

Every experience I've had with DMPC's (they show up in any game system) has the fun sucked right out of the game for the rest of the players.  When you are DM'ing - I can understand the desire to be part of your own game - but it's like dating your best friend's ex - no matter how much you reason how it can work in your head - reality doesn't agree.
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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2008, 11:20:39 AM »
I wouldn't call it a DMPC, but more DMNPC. I like to have a member of the party as a sort of "last chance" to succeed where the PCs fail. Whoops, thief didn't open the lock and now has to wait until the next level to try again? Let's let the DMNPC who's been dabbling in lockpicking to give it a shot. Did everyone in the party miss that critical spot check and if they don't have advance warning, the plot grinds to a halt? The DMNPC can be the one to hear the monsters planning the ambush.


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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2008, 12:10:21 AM »
I wouldn't call it a DMPC, but more DMNPC. I like to have a member of the party as a sort of "last chance" to succeed where the PCs fail. Whoops, thief didn't open the lock and now has to wait until the next level to try again? Let's let the DMNPC who's been dabbling in lockpicking to give it a shot. Did everyone in the party miss that critical spot check and if they don't have advance warning, the plot grinds to a halt? The DMNPC can be the one to hear the monsters planning the ambush.

This to me is one of the biggest reasons I don't like the DMPC.  It's great - as a way for the DM to keep the plot moving without having to wait for the players to catch up.  It's majorly unsatisfying for the players, in my opinion.

Orion

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2008, 12:26:53 PM »
If they're there to shore-up a very mechanical "gap" in the party (e.g., no healer), or they have some kind of story function, and your DM isn't a schmuck, they can be fine. I've had good ones. I've had bad ones. It's not the concept that's at fault, but the execution.

EntropicShadow

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2008, 05:42:44 PM »
If they're there to shore-up a very mechanical "gap" in the party (e.g., no healer), or they have some kind of story function, and your DM isn't a schmuck, they can be fine. I've had good ones. I've had bad ones. It's not the concept that's at fault, but the execution.

I agree with this completely.  I have had two experiences with DMPCs.  One that I ran and one when I was a player. 

The one I ran was in an Eberron campaign.  My players were trying to join the Blademarks, so I sent a captain of the group with them to see what they were like and how they handled themselves.  He never made a decision for the group.  He only made vague suggestions if he was asked anything.  He wasn't even really that optimized.  He was mostly extra HP and a sword, and he almost died.  After that one adventure, he went back to the Blademarks to serve as a contact between the players and the organization.  My players had no complaint with this. 

On the other hand, when I was playing alongside a DMPC, it was much different.  We were breaking out of jail at the start of a campaign with a new DM.  Along the way we picked up the DMPC.  He was some homebrew hybrid-class that was like a gestalt of Dusblade, Psywarrior, and Marshal, with some summoning and large weapons thrown in for good measure.  After fighting along side him for about an hour of playtime, my DM looked down at what he had done.  He apologized to the group, tried to explain how he was showing this guy off because he was the main villain of the campaign, and then quit the game.  He did not try running again for several months. 

So, DMPCs can serve a purpose or they can wreck a campaign.  I got lucky in that the DM learned his lesson.
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Orion

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2008, 10:51:47 PM »
Sounds like that DM gave up a little too quickly, but he also realised his mistake and admitted it, which counts for really a lot. A lot of new DMs (and players) make the mistake of trying to resolve all problems with the game, in the game. That's what we call passive-aggressive: pretend to ignore the problem but try to solve through duplicitous means while never acknowledging that there is a problem. It's not malicious, but it can really screw up a game.

EntropicShadow

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2008, 11:01:44 PM »
He did give up too quickly, though I might just being saying that because I was the groups only DM at the time and I really wanted to play.  But he has since started DMing again and is doing fine.
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skydragonknight

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2008, 02:20:23 PM »
As a DM, my DMPCs have a habit of dying since I roleplay the monsters as (mostly) unbiased at who they attack.

The best one I ran was actually 3 levels lower than the party and he was a Ranger since the party needed someone who could track. He could scout better than the druid, had incredible skill at cooking and basically outskilled the party Druid at most every skill except Knowledge(nature) which the Druid was slightly better at. The Druid hated him, though the rest of the party loved him (won their hearts through good cooking) and the two of them were always competing over trivial things.
He was a very gungho nice guy who admired the Druid and idolized him, which made the Druid hate him even more.
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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2008, 08:40:56 PM »
DMPSs work well, in moderation.
I have a campaign with two players that is mostly roleplaying, with a little combat. The DMPC just kind of sits back in his place of residence until the players need him for a little fightin' time, and he comes without a fuss.
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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2008, 01:06:21 PM »
And hell, if the party absolutely NEEDS a cleric, or a rogue, or the like, they can bloody well hire one ;)

I saw this and I just had to comment.  I don't disagree with the sentiment (at least, I think I don't), but if the party hires, say, a cleric, who's going to run it if not the DM?  Or is there some fundamental difference between a DMPC and an NPC joining the party that I'm missing out on?

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2008, 02:10:17 PM »
And hell, if the party absolutely NEEDS a cleric, or a rogue, or the like, they can bloody well hire one ;)

I saw this and I just had to comment.  I don't disagree with the sentiment (at least, I think I don't), but if the party hires, say, a cleric, who's going to run it if not the DM?  Or is there some fundamental difference between a DMPC and an NPC joining the party that I'm missing out on?

I would say that there is a fundamental difference between DMPC and NPC joining a party.  A DMPC is basically part of the party; a major character.  It is as if the DM is playing a character with the rest of the PCs.

But, most of the stories here blur the distinction, so you can take it however you feel.


The overwhelming feeling I'm getting is that I shouldn't play a DMPC in my sense of the word.  Looks like hired NPC aren't too terribly bad.

Thanks for your suggestions guys, and keep them coming.  I'm not going to use one in my game, but I like to read the stories!  :clap

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2008, 02:55:13 PM »
So it's a question of intent, rather than presence.  Makes enough sense to me.

I suppose it all boils down to, 'if an NPC accompanies the party, don't overshadow the PCs'.

Orion

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2008, 01:32:08 AM »
Yeah, that's pretty much it. Anything that a GM does to displace the players as the protagonists/main characters/heroes of their own story is bad. Everyone else, besides possibly the Big Bad du jour, has to play a supporting role. As long as you can do that, you're okay. The real problem is, as has been said many times, when a GM makes an uber-character (because as a GM you can) and then outclasses all of the players. Some GMs think that's encouraging. I've had one player actually request that they all go on an adventure with a much more powerful hero (?), but I think most people just find it annoying. Like, "If he's so great, why don't we just go home?"

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Re: DMPCs: Do they kill campaigns?
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2008, 01:43:11 AM »
I like GMPCs, personally. If they're support characters who never make any important decisions and don't railroad the PCs, they can be great. Heck, there's been a GMPC in nearly every D&D campaign I've played in.

A lot depends on the players. For instance, the last campiagn I ran, there was no dedicated warrior-type in the group, so I brought in Sir Justin, sword-and-board fighter. He was the flat-out best and straight-up fighting, but the players - squishy casters and rogues, and one cleric - appreciated this immensely. My players tend to be very tactically-minded, and would rather see the GMPC get his "moment of cool" than do without the extra resources. It helps that the monsters are utterly impartial...they'll kill whoever's closest and tastiest.

One oddity [?] about my group is that we often "guest GM." A player will have an idea for a one-session adventure, so he'll GM in the normal GM's campiagn for a session...while the normal GM plays the GMPC. Kind of like the Sanctuary series in gaming form. For this reason, the GMPC is even more useful.
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