Rules Question for the Fate of the Internets

[Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf]

Alright, I am having a discussion with Tshern in this thread http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1008615&page=41 and could use you all's feedback. 

The subject is what this text from Miracle implies

    * Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.

We'll refer to the hypothetical person trying to use Miracle as Bob from now on who is trying to transport in the square next to Jimmy.

Bill Bisco believes that you can use Miracle to transport directly next to Jimmy with no problems

Tshern thinks that Bill Bisco's idea is impossible because Bob has no idea where the square next to Jimmy is.  Therefore Bob cannot transport to that specific locale.

Bill Bisco believes that Miracle unlike Teleport does not care whether Bob has a clear idea of the destination or not as Miracle lacks this text from Teleport

You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination.

  Bill Bisco believes that Bob does not need to know where the specific locale Jimmy is at.

Tshern thinks that Bob still does not know what the specific locale is.  Bob wants to appear in the vicinity of Jimmy, but has no idea (infinite area) where he is.  For all Bob knows, Jimmy might be scuba diving.  To use an analogy, Bob has a moving target and want to shoot it and has no idea where the target is moving.


So who is right?  If I'm wrong, please tell me I'm wrong and why.  This is not an attempt to subvert Tshern's rulings as I will abide by them regardless, but I want you all's thoughts as I feel that we're speaking two different languages.

[PhaedrusXY]

I have been following the Iron Throne thread since Witch was running it, and Tshern asked me to be somewhat of a moderator for it some time ago, as an objective 3rd party that keeps him honest. I think he's probably right here. You're not specifying a location at all when you say "next to Jimmy", you're basically trying to use a creature as a destination.

[Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf]

Thanks for replying PhaedrusXY.  I don't see how I'm not specifying a location.  I'm saying one square to the right of Jimmy.  If I need to be more specific I can say one square to the right of Jimmy's right arm from his perspective.

If that's a problem, what about asking to transport to the same square as Jimmy? 

Similarly, if Bob was wanting to transport next to a specific house, would I be having the same resistance?  I don't see the difference between transporting next to a house or transporting next to a person.

edit: Perhaps I should say it this way.  How is Jimmy's square not a specific locale?

[PhaedrusXY]

Thanks for replying PhaedrusXY.  I don't see how I'm not specifying a location.  I'm saying one square to the right of Jimmy.  If I need to be more specific I can say one square to the right of Jimmy's right arm from his perspective.

If that's a problem, what about asking to transport to the same square as Jimmy? 

Similarly, if Bob was wanting to transport next to a specific house, would I be having the same resistance?  I don't see the difference between transporting next to a house or transporting next to a person.

A house basically is a location. A person is not. This is one of those semantic arguments where I think the limitations of language rear their head. The rules have to rely on the generally used definitions of terms, since they of course can't be bothered to give a rigorous definition for every term used in them. And of course nothing in the rules says you can't use a person to define a location, nor even defines what a location is. So we don't really have much to go on, except "common sense", definitions, and general usage. So we're going to have to consider what a "location" is.

In the real world, the only way to really identify a location is to do so as its position relates to objects; hence the GPS system, star charts, maps, compasses, and everything else related to finding your position all work like this. Position is usually resolved relative to mostly stationary objects, or objects whose position can be predicted using mathematics and physics. A person/creature would not qualify as an object that is generally stationary enough to use to identify a location, I'd think.

Of course, this brings up all kinds of other questions like "What about the inside of a moving ship, or a Bag of Holding?" These questions aren't new to the CO boards, and have generally been unresolved from what I've seen, as they are all basically different versions of the same question you're asking.

[Surreal]

I'll side with Bill on this one. I'm going to leave the RAW debate to someone else, but from a fluff perspective I see this as basically using the spell like a homing beacon. You don't care where Jimmy is, but as soon as the spell locates him, everyone is immediately transported there.

[PhaedrusXY]

I'll side with Bill on this one. I'm going to leave the RAW debate to someone else, but from a fluff perspective I see this as basically using the spell like a homing beacon. You don't care where Jimmy is, but as soon as the spell locates him, everyone is immediately transported there.

The spell doesn't do that, though. It transports you to a location. This would require it to basically combine the effects of Discern Location and Gate. to first find the location you want to go to, and then transport you there.

[Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf]

I don't see the spell as even needing to locate anything.  I see it as just taking you there, period.

Now, under your definition of locale PhaedrusXY, would Bob be able to use Miracle to go directly to Jimmy's dresser?

[Prime32]

Except that Miracle is asking a god to take you there, and he is damn well going to know where Jimmy is.

[Surreal]

What kind of a hide check would you need to play peek a boo with a god?

[PhaedrusXY]

What kind of a hide check would you need to play peek a boo with a god?

In this case, "Jimmy" has a virutal Divine Rank of 18. Would that help? 

Except that Miracle is asking a god to take you there, and he is damn well going to know where Jimmy is.

The caster in this case is a DR 18 god trying to use it to travel to another DR 18 god, so it isn't actually that simple.

I don't see the spell as even needing to locate anything.  I see it as just taking you there, period.

You're not defining "there". You're trying to obfuscate the fact that you're actually saying "take me to Dispater", which is not the same as "take me to location X". Saying "take me 5 feet to the left of Dispater" is still basically the same thing as "take me to Dispater". This is a problem with the inadequacy of language itself, as opposed to say something like symbolic logic.

Now, under your definition of locale PhaedrusXY, would Bob be able to use Miracle to go directly to Jimmy's dresser?

Sure, as long as he isn't carrying it around in his backpack or something.

[Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf]

I think this is where I'm getting at PhaedrusXY, 5 feet in front of Dispater is a specific location, I'm just using relative coordinates rather than absolute coordinates to define the location.

[Alastar]

If i may enter this oh so touchy discussion, althought english is my second language.

I believe that a specific location has to be related to by specific, stable points.  I agree with tshern and phaedrus basically.

What I will add is this: In your particular connundrum, i would suggest using a miracle to first see the location you are trying to teleport to, seeing as how scrying is an effect a level lower then teleport, i don't see how this is stretching the rulings of miracle.  Then you could use miracle to teleport next to this ''jimmy'' fella, whom I hear is rather groovy.

Or, I dunno, change gods and worship a DR 19 one. 

[Treantmonklvl20]

I will wade in as well.

* Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.

This indicates to me you need a locale, not a proximity.

One square next to Jimmy is a proximity - not a location (IMO).  If you say you want to move one square next to Jimmy - I think it is perfectly acceptable for the DM to say, "Sure - and what location is that?"

For example, If you ask me where I am, and I say that I am sitting beside my cat, I've given my proximity to the cat - but not my location.

[Pauper]

I don't see the spell as even needing to locate anything.  I see it as just taking you there, period.

Now, under your definition of locale PhaedrusXY, would Bob be able to use Miracle to go directly to Jimmy's dresser?

This is a good question, actually.

Consider each of the following potential results to the following request: "I use miracle to teleport into Dispater's throne room, precisely 10 feet in front of the throne and facing it."

Result #1: "The spell fails."

Result #2: "You successfully teleport into the throne room, but there is no throne."

Result #3: "You are 10 feet in front of the throne, facing it, but your surroundings are dingy and squalid; nothing like the throne room of an arch-devil."

It should be clear that in all cases, it turns out that there is no throne currently in Dispater's throne room for some odd reason. (Let's say it's been sent out for cleaning and minor repairs.)

Without getting too heavily into the philosophical concepts of necessary and sufficient conditions, result #1 would be valid for a DM who interpreted your location as requiring you to be both within the throne room and a certain distance from the throne. Result #2 would be valid if the definition of 'location' for the spell's purpose required only the statement of 'throne room'; the clarification of the position could be used if it specified a more precise location, but since the specification is not valid for this use of the spell, the spell ignores it to simply get you into the throne room. (Conversely, you could argue that you're teleporting to the point where you thought you'd be 10 feet in front of the throne and facing it; the fact that the throne isn't there doesn't invalidate the specific location you specified.) Result #3 would be valid only if your reference to the throne was seen as superceding your stated target of the throne room; many players I know would argue that this would be a bogus call.

If, on the other hand, you simply specify that you want to teleport 10 feet in front of the throne, facing it, it's in my opinion a valid question to ask if you know where the throne is, for exactly the reason Phaedrus points out -- a location in D&D terms is generally an absolute position in space, not a position relative to an object or person.

For an example of this distinction between location and person in practice in the D&D spell rules, compare clairvoyance http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clairaudienceClairvoyance.htm) and scryinghttp://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm scrying. If location could be defined as proximity to a person, then the latter spell would be unnecessary, as '10 feet behind Dispater' would seem to be a fairly obvious location.

--
Pauper

[JaronK]

For all purposes that I've seen in D&D, "location" refers to a stable place.  Magical locations, for example are not "the area behind that airship" or something like that... they're a physical place in their own right.  In the given example, Bob only knows one very vague description of the place he wants to go, and in fact his description isn't even specific... the space next to Jimmy is at least 9 squares, if we're not including the area above and below Jimmy. 

So, unless Jimmy never moves, I don't think I buy it.  Now, if you use a divination to see where Jimmy is right now and can specify the point, you'd be fine.

JaronK

[woodenbandman]

Does the Bob's patron deity know where Jimmy is? Because by requesting a miracle from your deity, you're asking them to help you, and if they don't know where Jimmy is, they're fucked. We're all fucked.

EDIT: I'm fucked too, by ninjas.

[PhaedrusXY]

Does the Bob's patron deity know where Jimmy is?

No, because Bob is the patron deity. 

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Oh, that thing is still going on.  Since I don't care enough anymore to do anything, behold my not at all fleshed out builds:

Jeffery, the Argentongue
Divine Rank 18 character

Salient divine abilities:

Divine Skill focus
Power of Luck
Divine recall (speech)
Silver Tongue



73 ranks
+3   Skill focus
+1   Illiterate
+2   Deceptive feat
+10   Psionic shard (Competence)
+28   Divine Skill focus
+18   Divine rank skill bonus
+20   50 Charisma
+4   Skill artistry
+30   Glibness, cast on self (unnamed)
+2   Masterwork tool (bluff) (circumstance)
+30   Magic item (enhancement)
+3   Snake familiar (unnamed)
+73   Item familiar (unnamed)
+2   Aid another (item familiar)
+2    Luck from item familiar dedicated power.
+25   Moment of Prescience (insight)
+18   Silver Tongue(sacred)
+18   POWER OF LUCK    Salient Divine ability (luck)
+20 guidance of the avatar (competence)

Total of 382.  Dispater has a +122 to Sense motive.  Even if Dispater gets an additional +200 bonus to his sense motive skill, he STILL believes me.


Ring of mind shielding (8000 gp)
-immune to discern lies, anything that detects alignment magically

Extra cheese:
Level 25 cohort.  He's a human with the nymph's kiss feat.  He has an 18 int at level 1, but is very old (+2 to int)
At first level he takes skill focus(bluff).  Class +7 skill points/level.  He levels up in rogue to level 25.  This gives him 15 skill points per level.  He takes item familiar at third level.  Way to go.

From third level on, all of his skill ranks are invested in his familiar.  That's 22 levels * 15 ranks = 330 skillpoints.

He gives his item voluntarily to his god.  This gives all the invested skill ranks.  All of them.  That's an additional 22 ranks in bluff, and a +110 bonus to bluff.
Net effect ->+59 to bluff if I use this familiar instead.


So:
Preparations (take place immediately before going to Dis):
*optional*
My worthy cohort and stalwart petitioner, I will require the use of your magical tie for a short period of time.  Please yield it to me, as its special purpose is indeed to serve me and my followers.  As I am a good and generous god, I will grant you proxyhood and my personal item familiar for the duration of the period
Cohort: Sure boss. */optional*

Use wish to create a slotless Helm of Opposite Alignment, with the crafting restriction that it only functions on evil creatures.  Nystal it so it doesn't show magic.

Jeffery is, of course, obsessed with language.  It's his schtick.  Years ago he created the common language in an attempt to form a perfect language.  Although it was far superior to alignment languages, and more widely adopted, now he wants to try again, making a truly universal language.  In order to accomplish this so far, he has sought out and spoken with the most linguistically adept elementals (for Ignan, Auran, Aquan, and Terran), the most well-spoken druids (druidic, obviously), and the greatest of dragons.  His travels in developing his new language, esperantwo, are well known.

24 hours before competition:  Cast sending to send a message to Dispater.  He'll know when I'm there anyway, so I might as well be courteous.  "I have heard of your skill with language.  I wish to speak with you about Esperantwo.  Please talk with me at Dis' gate tomorrow." (24 words)  Note: He's completely honest about this. 
competition - 6 rounds: Read some of Dispater's poetry.  Have refined poetic sensibilities offended.  Resolve to kill Dispater.
Round 1: Cast wish to create a Helm of Opposite Alignment (limitation: only effective on evil-aligned creatures). 
Round 2: cast glibness on self.
Round 3: cast moment of prescience, quickened guidance of the avatar, on self
round 4: use psionic shard
Round 5: planeshift to Dis
Round 6: (beginning of competition): Dispater should have sent an emissary.  Let's see how this plays out.

Use sending for the message "Dispater, the item I possess is something of great import.  Please talk with me".  This is a bluff Jeffery is taking 10 on, (but not using any 1-shot bonuses), so Dispater has to make a Sense Motive DC of 244 (not including item familiar) to disbelieve it.  Dispater gets a +50 bonus to sense motive, as I am using the suggestion effect of bluff.

Round 5: Dispater agrees to talk with me.

Round 6: With an amazing bluff check I convince him to use it and voluntarily fail his save.

Round 7: The now Chaotic Good Dispater agrees that it's best if he's dead than if he's returned to Lawful Evilness, as will surely happen once break enchantment is cast upon him.  Dispater commits suicide.

Round 8: I win.


ALTERNATE BUILD:
Tackier Sly, god of popular musicians and really tiny segmented animals.

Alignment: True Neutral
Portfolio: Music, Song, Dreams,Bards, Lulz, Tardigrades
Worshipers: 11-14 year old girls, bards, disaffected college students, tardigrades.
Cleric Alignments: Any
Domains: Water, Trickery, Luck, Knowledge, Charm, Air

Tackier Sly ( Human)
Divine Rank: 18
Medium Humanoid (Bard 50 Sorcerer 20) (Yeah, yeah, suboptimal)

   Salient Divine Abilities:
Divine Bard,
Clearsight,
Automatic Metamagic (Persist),
Divine Celerity,
Divine Creation,

Create Object,
Alter Form,
Shift Form (Tardigrade)
Shapechange (Alter Size is covered by being a greater deity, yes?)
True Shapechange,

Divine Inspiration,
Divine Skill Focus: Perform (Song),
Extra Energy Immunity (Acid),
Free Move,
Power of Luck,

Supreme Initiative,
Divine Water Mastery,
True Knowledge,
Divine Dodge,
Improved Spell Resistance,

Overlord(Tardigrades),
Control Creatures(Tardigrades),
Govern the Children(Tardigrades)


Equipment:
Stat Boosters of +25
Books of +5
Vest of Resistance +10
Force Shield Ring
Microphone of +100 to perform (song) (also an item familiar)
49 lyres of building

Divine realm: It's its own demiplane located in the outer realms.  The temperature is set a moderately chilly five degrees Kelvins (what can I say?  He's a cool guy).  The realm's atmospheric pressure is set at a modest six thousand atmospheres, which makes the acoustics wonderful.  There's a constant sound of background singers, which is normally unnoticeable unless a dance routine starts up.  The whole 1800 mile radius realm has the objective directional gravity trait, and is filled with extremely sharp spinning blades of obdurium and what appears to be slowly moving fine dust.  This dust is, in actuality, billions upon billions of tardigrades in tuns, clinging to minuscule particles of solidified ice.  The planar trait limited magic is in effect for all magic.  In addition, the plane has the minorly positive dominant trait.

   The only connection to the rest of the universe is a portal inside a doorless, windowless, airtight, bladed, ethereally solid, prismatically screened, woodbane, metalbane, leadlined, room, which is indestructible due to an avatar continuously playing a lyre of building in the next room over (which is airtight, comfortable and at normal pressure).  The pressure differential between this portal and the place it opens to means that anyone entering the divine realm is shoved out whenever the portal is open as if by a tornado force wind.

Scattered throughout his realm are 143 illusions of Tackier Sly, created by a variant version of the deck of illusions, where all the illusions are of the card's owner.  (Should be around 35000 gp for the cost).

These measures are the only ones that have been successful to keep his adoring fans and the paparazzi out of his divine realm.


Plan of action: finish millennium-long interplaneary tour in Dis (since I *have* to start in Dis).  Go home, close the sole portal to the outside universe, cast dream and wait until I catch Dispater asleep.  Make a perform check for the best message transmitted by dream ever: the eternal Rickroll.  Dispater will be unable to wake* until I finish my message.  I'm well defended, as I'm a single tardigrade in a dimension full of tardigrades that would utterly destroy anything else that stopped by for a cup of tea.  I also don't have any enemies, and Dispater surely has plenty.  If nobody's going to overthrow him when he's comatose for ten thousand years, I end the message and tell Asmodeus quite honestly that Dispater is completely incompetent at fostering Lawful Evil, and should be fired. 

Oh, and since tardigrades can survive anywhere (and I mean anywhere), I incidentally have a spy network that can't be beat.


*True fact: time experienced in dreams proceeds at exactly the same rate as real time.  Hurrah for science.

[Negative Zero]

You'd better hope nobody gets a Greater Consumptive Field inside of your realm, though, or those waterbears will suddenly become so very many free caster levels.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

You'd better hope nobody gets a Greater Consumptive Field inside of your realm, though, or those waterbears will suddenly become so very many free caster levels.

I'm not sure if anybody can get in at all.

Did I forget to mention which forbidden schools of magic there are?  Thought I did... this is an early draft