Author Topic: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?  (Read 65608 times)

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Midnight_v

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2008, 04:37:04 PM »
Quote
M_v, I'll give you Favored Classes could be handled in other ways. I like Reward over Penalize, and it's simple. Maybe I am saying that "any fix is a good fix", but it's better than default 3.5, and I don't mind that it's not the best it could possibly be.
... and really I'm fine with that. . . However it is not a set of fixes worth the price of 3 books.

Quote
Similarily, Any nerf is a good nerf is a class is freakin' totally OVERPOWERED. If you don't like Pathfinder's nerf --- er, fix, use your own. I've been playing a Pathfinder cleric for a few levels now and it's so much more in line with other classes it's annoying. Also, outside nerf, the fact it effectively has out-of-combat healing is a very very nice thing. The Turn mechanism is much more sensible now, and actually somewhat useful at any level
What? To the bold part.
The rest of it is this any nerf is not a good nerf. The problem is ... people get so tired of CoDzilla owning its just like *YES FINALLY!* but thats not a good rubric for design. Its the same thing that got us Clericzilla in the first place. Overcompensation. You should be annoyed that the cleric is in line with the other classes, if its annoying then something's wrong. Turning is simplified not more sensible, the thing is to figure out exactly what one wants turning to do and fix it. Making it damage doesn't fix it.
As far as fix/use my own. . . I"m saying that's really the best thing period. You did not need paizo to tell you how to fix cleric. Seriously. . . sigh... okay I'm done.
.....
wait.
I wanted to add this. Paizo has some excellent fluff. The Monsters revisited short had the best rendition of the "Bugbear" I've ever seen.
Its awesome.
I point that out because I give credit where credits due. Their hobogoblins are still a bit too generic and close to orc and the base "goblins" are more like gremlins now but thats lateral. Bugbear is upward. Bravo.
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Kaelik

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2008, 05:01:02 PM »
30-40% fail chance is better than a 45+% fail chance.

It kills a CR 1 creature every time at level 3-5. Unfortunately, you are actually facing a Greater Barghest/Ogre/Huge Animated Object. All of which killz you dead after you do a piddly 14 damage to them. But when they are blind, the continue to stay blind and do nothing while the camp follower/real characters beat on them.

Quote
Also, do note that a well-equipped, well-built fighter is ALSO capable of killing the listed opponents. Not sure how he'd do vs. flying at that level, but prepared actions might help.
A Fighter's HP should be 42+ at that point, AC above 20. Should be able to withstand 6 rounds against most of those.
This is keeping in mind, a Fighter the class is one of the weakest melee classes.

You are completely missing the point. Warrior NPCs can do a just fine job of mopping up the blind/nauseated enemies. Seriously, they can.

A party of Cleric/Druid/Wizard doesn't need a fighter. Because what makes you a real character is not being able to autoattack a cripple to death. It's having real abilities that let you do something meaningful.

Fighters need to actually have something else to do that is meaningful against real opposition. Not do +5 damage over a Cleric of the same level. (unbuffed, since buffed, well we all know.)

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2008, 05:08:09 PM »
30-40% fail chance is higher than a 10-45% fail chance. After all, you can just hit the divine casters (the 45% fail chance) with something else which means it works better in every situation. Also going by averages 35% is definitely higher than 27.5%. And again, if the enemy has 15 or more HP the Scorching Ray does not impede its ability to fight. If you roll below average, there's another chance it will still be able to fight.

Fighter 5 = 42 HP, AC 20 (since we're assuming a viable Fighter, no shield is allowed, so just dex and +1 full plate). Two ogres attack, one at +8 and one at +10 (flank). 16 damage (average) per hit with a chance to hit between them of 100%. 16 damage right off. Every round after the first? 17.6 damage because now both benefit from flank. Nope, not winning. In fact after the first two rounds he's lost 80% of his HP. Third, he's dead. And this is a low end pair of CR 3s simply auto attacking. If instead say... the BSF went in the wrong cave and pissed off a pair of dire wolves, even better.

14.5 average per hit. Any hit carries with it an 83.5% (+11 vs +3) chance you will be tripped. Just auto attacking you take 130% of that, or 18.85, right off. Then you take 20.3 every round after. Of course they aren't just auto attacking, so what happens is if you go down, add 20% for each attack made while you're down, along with another 140% from AoOs when you get up. 130% of 83.5% means after the initial round of attacks you go down. You either get up and take another 26.1 thereby dropping dead immediately, or you attack once at -4, then take 26.1 and die. Oops.

Senervi, the rest of your post is just a whole lot of made up crap. Strawmans, falsehoods, whatever. Kaelik has it right - there is no reason to pay full price for what is in the best case scenario a minor convenience at a huge cost.

Also Kaelik I must ask again. Do you accept positive or negative fu?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 05:10:24 PM by Sunic_Flames »
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Prime32

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #83 on: December 14, 2008, 05:24:54 PM »
All this flaming has made me curious - where is this PDF you can look at?
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Tshern

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #84 on: December 14, 2008, 05:59:43 PM »
All this flaming has made me curious - where is this PDF you can look at?
Can be downloaded for free from failville.com.

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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #85 on: December 14, 2008, 06:05:07 PM »
That's the actual site?
Wow...
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bkdubs123

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #86 on: December 14, 2008, 06:45:54 PM »
I really liked The Warrior's Way, actually. but that's a different topic.

Random, but thank you. Good to know people actually read my stuff.  ;)

juton

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #87 on: December 14, 2008, 07:11:30 PM »
@Sunic_Flames

I'm curious how a proper wizard would handle a Greater Barghest, I've never played with a wizard who wouldn't chuck around fireballs as their choice of offence. Since they have high saves most Save-or-sucks would be dicey at least, they have high int so you can't Ray-of-Stupidy them down to 0 int. My best idea would be ray of dizzyness, tumble away and keep casting.

The only character in my current lvl5 group I know who could solo one (easiliy if at all) gets 1d10+cl in temp hitpoints per round.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #88 on: December 14, 2008, 07:26:23 PM »
No ranged attacks, no flight, only levitate. Auto negated. They have 0 effect on you, you have a non 0 effect on them.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

Senevri

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #89 on: December 14, 2008, 07:34:54 PM »
Quote from: Kaelik
You are completely missing the point. Warrior NPCs can do a just fine job of mopping up the blind/nauseated enemies. Seriously, they can.
Yes, they can. And then you're playing... how many characters, now? There is no difference except power level and utility between a Fighter doing the killing, or a Druid or Cleric or Pun-pun in the same party role. MY point is that a wizard cannot do it alone, especially at lower levels. Action economy simply prevents it.

Okay, I wrote quite a bit as a reply for Sunic, then realized it has nothing to do with the thread topic.

Quote from: Sunic_Flames
Strawmans, falsehoods, whatever
I take offense at that. Albeit I did ramble a bit.

Quote
No ranged attacks, no flight, only levitate. Auto negated. They have 0 effect on you, you have a non 0 effect on them.
No XP for you. Not able to handle equal-CR encounters, are you? :P
Dragons are probably worse, all around.

But, no more OT from me in this thread.

juton

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #90 on: December 14, 2008, 07:35:51 PM »
@Sunic

So you'd fly and unload on it with your crossbow? If you're in confined space would you suggest a strategic withdrawl?

Kaelik

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #91 on: December 14, 2008, 07:56:40 PM »
Quote from: Kaelik
You are completely missing the point. Warrior NPCs can do a just fine job of mopping up the blind/nauseated enemies. Seriously, they can.
Yes, they can. And then you're playing... how many characters, now? There is no difference except power level and utility between a Fighter doing the killing, or a Druid or Cleric or Pun-pun in the same party role. MY point is that a wizard cannot do it alone, especially at lower levels. Action economy simply prevents it.

Actually, there is a difference. The difference is that the Druid and Cleric provide actual utility to the party, whereas the fighter saps XP and loot. Fighters are not worth including in any way that saps XP and loot.

2) Wizards can easily do it alone, especially at levels past 7, but even at low levels, if they are going to be alone, they will be prepared for that instead of using tactics that allow for piddly shit.

Here are some ways that Wizard solo character can use his class features to completely replace the "hit crippled shit" role.

Low levels 1-3:

1) Enemies are helpless after failing saving throw: Bring a Scythe.
2) Switch Familiar for 1/2 level animal companion.
3) spend hundred of GP in bolts shooting at stuff with your to hit only -3 of an actual fighter. (Easily made up for by them being blind.)
4) Hire a level 1 Warrior for 10gp a day. Maybe 2-3.

Still low levels 4-6:
1) Familiar for AC.
2) Hire NPCs.
3) Spend gp shooting at -5 to normal characters.

Level 7:

1) Congratulations, you now have 3-4 Ogre Skeletons. You don't care about the stupid beatstick.

Level 9: You can now Astral Project yourself, and get tons of useful outsiders to do some "kill that crippled bitch" work for you.

Level 11: No one cares, you are God.

So yes, Wizards can do it on their own. However, as fun a diversion as that is, it's not the point.

The point is that in an actual world dictated by the rules as presented in the Core D&D books, a Wizard and a Cleric, when presented with a "Fighter" asking to join their team, should laugh, call him a damn fool, and go looking for someone who actually matters, like another Cleric, a Druid, A rogue, hell, even a Bard if they are really desperate for that +4, but certainly not a Fighter.

Also Kaelik I must ask again. Do you accept positive or negative fu?

I'll accept anything, mostly because I don't think there is a way to not accept fu, but I'm not terribly concerned about my Fu.

Soda

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #92 on: December 14, 2008, 08:11:02 PM »
The wizard talk reminds me of playing Munchkin yesterday. (hilarious card game)

If anyone knows the game and knows the wizard card, they know it's broked. It lets you discard you hand to charm a monster instead of fighting it. You don't go up a level, but you get it's treasure. So after doing that a few times you so many bonuses from items, you can fight anything (or charm it and get tons of treasure, worst case).

We were playing up to level 20 because he got to 10 so fast. And he was outperforming so much, he was level 15+ when I was 7. He had so much treasure, he had more items he couldn't use than I had items.

It's just life. The wizard does it better.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #93 on: December 14, 2008, 08:18:35 PM »
@Sunic

So you'd fly and unload on it with your crossbow? If you're in confined space would you suggest a strategic withdrawl?

That was my zero creativity solution to a creature that is fairly credible but still cannot counter basic caster tricks. It wasn't meant to be the best solution, just a middle finger solution. Casters specialize in middle finger solutions. Kaelik did it better though because he didn't automatically dismiss the question as a joke. Having given it another full second's reflection (2 total) Shivering Touch will take it out with no save if you Sudden Maximize it. Otherwise you'll need a Lesser Shivering Touch or two as well. 1 3rd level spell and 1 feat or 1 3rd level spell and 1-2 1st level spells to negate what is supposed to be an incredibly difficult encounter. Hmmm...

Senervi, you are guilty of those things because you're honestly trying to claim camp follower is an equal party member even after it's proven that even if you care you get the same thing far cheaper and lose nothing. Also you apparently have forgotten my examples are you + 2 others + beatstick vs you + 2 others + anyone or just you + 2 others. Say the party is Wizard, Druid, Rogue. Objectively superior to a four man including the Fighter. And that's just four box shit, it's not even optimal.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 08:21:08 PM by Sunic_Flames »
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

juton

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #94 on: December 14, 2008, 08:38:05 PM »
Thanks Sunic

Treantmonklvl20

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #95 on: December 14, 2008, 09:01:53 PM »

They aren't at all saying the same thing. One says, "hey, buff the Fighter every now and then. It'll make him feel better about himself and maybe your party won't hate you." The other says, "You are Wizard. You buff Fighter. That's what you were born to do."

As I said, I never read the original guide, but also I've demonstrated that the two aren't even saying the same thing. If I had ever seen anyone say, "The Wizard's role is to buff the Fighter" anywhere before I can swear to you on anything you want that I'd have bashed the hell out of it. I consider my response to it in this thread to be quite tame. That is literally the stupidest thing I've read in days.

They actually do say the same thing - and neither say what you've suggested they've said.

The idea behind the "Being a God" wizard handbook is for 3 roles in the party to work as a single unit.  The Wizard controls the battlefield (he occassionally buffs and debuffs - and maybe even blasts once in a blue moon - but BC is his main focus).  This is done through tactical teleportation spells - walls - movement hindrance etc.  This allows the "Rogue" (or anyone who does lots of damage and can't take it in return) and the "Fighter" character (anyone who can dish out and take damage) tactical advantage over their enemies (like - the enemies are seperated so Fighter/rogue can do search and destroy divide and conquer style).

The fighter role is absolutely necessary to the type of wizard that I've recommended playing.  Now, certainly it doesn't NEED to be the fighter class - a Druid tends to work just as well - but it needs to be someone who gets into melee - and can take the hits as well as recieve them.  The fighter is a reasonably effective choice for this role - especially in games that allow a more comprehensive feat selection.  Some of the fighter charge builds are crazy damage-wise - and have lots of HP to take the hit.

A wizard certainly can go solo - but I've never recommended this kind of wizard.  Soon as you find out that the monster you've levatated out of reach of has a potion of fly - it's panic time.  Also - number of castings per day can become a problem as well.  Generally - you are just better off if someone in your party is a front liner.

Quote
A party of Cleric/Druid/Wizard doesn't need a fighter.


This is true - as the Druid or Cleric can fufill a similar role - especially if specifically built to do so.

However - a Cleric (Travel domain)/Druid/Fighter party doesn't need a wizard either - also, a Cleric/Fighter/Wizard party doesn't need a Druid.  Yet Druids and Wizards are on the top 5 list - yet either is expendable.

Not to say I don't think Wizards and Druids are better than fighters.  However, I think Wizards and Druids are better than 90% of the classes out there (and that's a conservative estimate).  I certainly don't think fighters are the weakest or most useless class.  *COUGHMONKCOUGH*  Even tactical advantage is so-so if you are throwing a flurry of misses.

Wow - I've had lots to say about fighters.  Apparently that makes me a fighter-fanboy mindslave.  Damn you mechanics to create imaginary characters!

That said - I am a fan of many of Paizo's products - so perhaps that makes me a fanboy.

Their magnetic initiative tracker is something I've loved for well over a year now for my 3.5 games.  It tracks initiative, rounds, as well as the end of spell effects etc.

Their wire spell templates can be placed on the map right over your miniatures - very handy for spell effect tracking.

They also publish aventure paths consistantly.  I don't have time to make my own adventures - and having a company that consistantly provides adventure paths that can take your characters from level 1 through high level with a central storyline is very good.  So far, the adventure paths I've ran or played have been pretty solid.  I don't know how many RPG's have ultimately failed because the company doesn't publish adventures for their product - but I expect it is many.

Never have I suggested that the crowd on the boards at Paizo are awesomesauce - and I don't remember ever defending them.  These are words that have been put in my mouth - and then I've been attacked over them.

I did say I've seen the designers take feedback from the boards - so I guess I defended them - however, I believe I did say that they have to wade through a pile of crap to find the gems.  Maybe they find crap that they think is gems...guess that's opinion.

However - Paizo has done some good stuff.  If thinking that makes me a fanboy - I guess I am.
Quote
  All this flaming has made me curious - where is this PDF you can look at?

The free download is available here:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG

« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 10:38:22 PM by Treantmonklvl20 »
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CoarsestGrate

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #96 on: December 14, 2008, 09:23:18 PM »
Sorry, just got back from seeing a disappointment of a film.  Anyways...

I got a question for you,CoarsestGrate.
What do you think about pathfinder? Is it a boon or a bane.
Overall to our 3.5 gaming community.
Ah 2 questions.
The second one is why do you feel that way?

Me personally?  I think Pathfinder sucks and shouldn't be used as a replacement for 3.5.  I feel that way because I think the Pathfinder rules as they are right now don't help improve the game, and in some cases even hinders its improvement.  From all the horror stories I've been reading, and the stuff I've seen for myself, I think the feedback that might truly help Pathfinder to be better than 3.5 is being ignored and will continue to be ignored.

But see, here's the thing.  This is just my opinion on the state of Pathfinder.  Others share my opinion, and others still think my opinion is wrong.  I respect TreantMonk for daring to voice his opinion to a group of people that would tear him to shreds for it.  I still think his opinion is wrong, and I wish he'd change his mind, but I don't think TM is stupid at all just because he happens to believe Pathfinder isn't in fact a giant wad of suck.

And that's all I have to say about that.

:thumb

Treantmonklvl20

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #97 on: December 14, 2008, 10:18:28 PM »
Sorry, just got back from seeing a disappointment of a film.  Anyways...

I got a question for you,CoarsestGrate.
What do you think about pathfinder? Is it a boon or a bane.
Overall to our 3.5 gaming community.
Ah 2 questions.
The second one is why do you feel that way?

Me personally?  I think Pathfinder sucks and shouldn't be used as a replacement for 3.5.  I feel that way because I think the Pathfinder rules as they are right now don't help improve the game, and in some cases even hinders its improvement.  From all the horror stories I've been reading, and the stuff I've seen for myself, I think the feedback that might truly help Pathfinder to be better than 3.5 is being ignored and will continue to be ignored.

But see, here's the thing.  This is just my opinion on the state of Pathfinder.  Others share my opinion, and others still think my opinion is wrong.  I respect TreantMonk for daring to voice his opinion to a group of people that would tear him to shreds for it.  I still think his opinion is wrong, and I wish he'd change his mind, but I don't think TM is stupid at all just because he happens to believe Pathfinder isn't in fact a giant wad of suck.

And that's all I have to say about that.

:thumb

Nicely said.  Thanks!  :)
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Straw_Man

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #98 on: December 14, 2008, 11:17:45 PM »


  Throwing in my opinion into this mudslinging fest. Paizo fails badly - their best designers are volunteers who are hampered by the people being paid to actually do the job.

   That said, they ARE making money off it. Amazing that all these 'brilliant' fixes suggested come from people who have as much or more ego than Jason, yet have yet to reach that level of success,

  TML20, your opinions do seem to be backpedalling from your previous statements of BigDumbFighter but I am very impressed by you remaining civil in the face of very fallacious ad hominems and boosterism, fu for you sir. I'm curious if you were over exaggerating the BDF role for humour or if you've come to a different paradigm?

  I've always thought that a melee type as optimised as a God Wizard would do so much damage that a real Wizard would realise the smartest thing to do would be to get WalkingDeath in place to take out the enemy.  God could do it itself in more rounds, but God gets others to do God's work, no?

  Do we really want to play games where everyone's a spellcaster racing initiative to be the first to solo encounters? And thats something Paizo didn't fix.
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Treantmonklvl20

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2008, 11:36:11 PM »
TML20, your opinions do seem to be backpedalling from your previous statements of BigDumbFighter but I am very impressed by you remaining civil in the face of very fallacious ad hominems and boosterism, fu for you sir. I'm curious if you were over exaggerating the BDF role for humour or if you've come to a different paradigm?

The God thread was written to be humorous and edgy - and was intended to be from the wizard's point of view.  A very, very narcassistic wizard.  The thread was really about how a wizard can use battlefield control to make the rest of his party much more effective instead of being a one man show.  I found from personal experience a god wizard in the party reduces casualties and makes challenges easier.

Playing a wizard I always think of the Fighter as the nuke and the wizard as the delivery system.  Yeah - I've seen lots of wizard "save or die" or "enervation maximized" or "metamagic + blasting" builds - but often I find a simple snake's swiftness on the fighter shows he can do more damage than you most of the time.

The fighter owns damage - the wizard owns the battlefield.  Frankly, I do think that gives wizard's an edge in power - and I think it makes them more challenging to play - but my wizard NEEDS a fighter type to do the damage.
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