Author Topic: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?  (Read 65612 times)

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skydragonknight

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #60 on: December 14, 2008, 11:35:15 AM »
To clarify, I distinctly recall Treant being highly intelligent and writing some wizard handbooks, whatever. Then he turns into some rabid fanboy complete with 2d4 Int drain. I told him to come into the Magic Circle against Stupid to suppress the Dominate on him so he can start acting normal again.

So just because he has a different opinion than you means he's someone mindslave? Serious gap in logic here. 0% logic.

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The apparent lack of intelligence stems from being a Paizo fanboy. Note this is not the same as liking it.

Define fanboy then. You are making accusations that he is different from someone who casually likes pathfinder. Making accusations without evidence. 0% logic.

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Fighter Logic

Excellent. At least 80% logic. Where was that logic before? Seriously. Fighting logic with name calling implies either 1)you're less intelligent than TM20, 2)you have less debate skill than TM20 or 3)For whatever reason, you enjoy sporadically acting like an idiot.

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Frank stuff


Eh. Frank stuff. I've looked at their material - I like a lot of it(classes, feats), but not the idea of a Wish economy as a primary rule. Any DM smart enough to see that Frank's material patches up a lot of holes in 3.5 should also be smart enough to ban the things(Candles of Invocation) which make Wish Economies valid for characters playing levels 1-16 the moment someone tries to buy one.
I don't know the guy himself, though from both your argument and those defending him:
1. It seems like he's like you but...
2. He knows how to explain his side of the argument better with logic than what I'm seeing here.

Everything except the Fighter argument is weak. I'm going to have to give you a bad critique on this one. If TM20 is wrong, then there should be more logical holes in his argument than just the Fighter thing.

 
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Treantmonklvl20

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #61 on: December 14, 2008, 12:01:54 PM »
With regards to fighters:

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The reason why Fighters are worthless is lack of options. If stab it in the face works, they might get somewhere. If they can't stab it in the face it doesn't matter if their stab it in the face maneuver does 9 damage or 9,000 damage, they cannot affect it.

If the fighter can't stab the enemy in the face, he should be stabbing the wizard in the face as the wizard is apparently throwing fireballs instead of controlling the battlefield.

There is nothing wrong with the role of a fighter - stab the enemy in the face for lots of damage.  The role of the wizard is to ensure the fighter can reach it.

As for out of combat actions - this came up earlier and I demonstrated how a fighter gets more skill coverage in Pathfinder.  If there was something wrong with that demonstration - let me know.

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Scale of 1 - 10 his work and contributions 3-4 point higher than yours.


Yet I've contributed something.  Dick envy MV?  :P
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Midnight_v

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #62 on: December 14, 2008, 12:13:10 PM »
Hmm.. then here's the deal Skydragonknight. Its a free download go download it and review it yourself.
You've always seemed to me a resonable fellow.
So you'll be able to see for yourself if its as I said earlier "a lateral move" or a better product.
The wizards are still overpowerd, basically play a universilist wizard for Metamagic supremacy.
The cleric is reigned in, it's been stripped of its domains and spells.
I've deleted it off my pc. .. after I decided.
I think the bane in my opinion is just overly succesful marketing. They Palin'd it. Some people bought into it, it was new and fresh asking what we though but *shrug* the changes didn't happen fast enough for me, nor did they address the things that really make the game go pow...
...
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Yet I've contributed something.  Dick envy MV?
TmLv20
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« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 12:21:01 PM by Midnight_v »
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bkdubs123

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #63 on: December 14, 2008, 12:13:37 PM »
Quote from: TreantMonk
The role of the wizard is to ensure the fighter can reach it.

I'm just going to let that sink in.

Midnight_v

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2008, 12:15:24 PM »
Quote from: TreantMonk
The role of the wizard is to ensure the fighter can reach it.

I'm just going to let that sink in.
OOooHHH LOL It hurts when I laugh this hard!
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skydragonknight

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2008, 12:58:37 PM »
Alright, now my opinion. And it's just an opinion: a statement that implicitly neither true or false. Though certainly many will disagree.

I haven't participated in the pathfinder forums, though I am playing in a pathfinder game right now.
There is a mix of good changes and bad changes, which overall gives me really mixed feelings(love the skills, hate the feats, like most of the classes) Overall it averages out as "nothing special" but "just something different."
I think the system is playable, despite it's flaws(3.5 is playable, despite it's flaws), though like 3.5 there's still a lot of room for improvement.
It's certainly nothing I'd throw away normal 3.5 for, but for a game or two it's certainly a nice change of pace.

Probably the one thing I disapprove of most is profiteering. A fan-based 'fix' to a system should be non-profit(covering only expenses for publication and artwork). For that reason I'd rate it as a bane.
When the test release ends and they start asking me to pay for more than the price of publication, then I'll simply stop playing Pathfinder.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

CoarsestGrate

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2008, 01:00:33 PM »
Quote from: TreantMonk
The role of the wizard is to ensure the fighter can reach it.

I'm just going to let that sink in.

Hmm.  I'm pretty sure that's what he said the wizard's role was in his guide too... at least if he's "God".  People didn't seem to mind it then.  Why is it any different now?

Because he phrased it wrong?

To compare, here's the main sentence in each of the descriptions of Battlefield Controller, Buffer, and Debuffer, the "Three Ways to play God" as it were...

Quote from: TreantMonklvl20
This will make the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory.

and TM's most recent description...

Quote from: TreantMonklvl20
There is nothing wrong with the role of a fighter - stab the enemy in the face for lots of damage.  The role of the wizard is to ensure the fighter can reach it.

One description portrays the Fighter as the worthless peon everyone says he is, and the other description doesn't.  Both descriptions say the same thing, and yet one's "stupid" and the other has "style".

???

My only question now is this... if he had used the first description instead of the second one, would you have bashed it the same?

I hope you know the correct answer.

Midnight_v

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2008, 01:05:58 PM »
I got a question for you,CoarsestGrate.
What do you think about pathfinder? Is it a boon or a bane.
Overall to our 3.5 gaming community.
Ah 2 questions.
The second one is why do you feel that way?
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Midnight_v

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2008, 01:06:29 PM »
Alright, now my opinion. And it's just an opinion: a statement that implicitly neither true or false. Though certainly many will disagree.

I haven't participated in the pathfinder forums, though I am playing in a pathfinder game right now.
There is a mix of good changes and bad changes, which overall gives me really mixed feelings(love the skills, hate the feats, like most of the classes) Overall it averages out as "nothing special" but "just something different."
I think the system is playable, despite it's flaws(3.5 is playable, despite it's flaws), though like 3.5 there's still a lot of room for improvement.
It's certainly nothing I'd throw away normal 3.5 for, but for a game or two it's certainly a nice change of pace.

Probably the one thing I disapprove of most is profiteering. A fan-based 'fix' to a system should be non-profit(covering only expenses for publication and artwork). For that reason I'd rate it as a bane.
When the test release ends and they start asking me to pay for more than the price of publication, then I'll simply stop playing Pathfinder.
Ultimately we feel almost exactly the same. I've gotta make sure I don't get caught up in the rant storms and stick to what I'm trying to say.
WHich was what you just said.
It's not an improvement a lateral move at best. Couple that with the profit thing = bane.
*sigh* I gotta watch that. . .
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2008, 01:12:40 PM »
So just because he has a different opinion than you means he's someone mindslave? Serious gap in logic here. 0% logic.

Strawman. He's qualifying as someone else's mindslave due to the exact nature of his posts. His first super long post especially was full of Paizo oral. If you can't see the difference between this and merely disagreeing there is no point in this discussion.

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Define fanboy then. You are making accusations that he is different from someone who casually likes pathfinder. Making accusations without evidence. 0% logic.

He's put far too much effort into his first post alone to qualify as someone who 'casually likes Pathfinder'. A fanboy is someone who cannot accept their favored product is flawed and views any illustration of those flaws as a personal attack. Compare to someone who merely likes a product where you get more moderate replies such as I dunno... nearly everyone that took Paizo's side here starting with the original poster? So far your constant claims of 0% logic are serving only to describe your own claims.

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Excellent. At least 80% logic. Where was that logic before? Seriously. Fighting logic with name calling implies either 1)you're less intelligent than TM20, 2)you have less debate skill than TM20 or 3)For whatever reason, you enjoy sporadically acting like an idiot.

Spelling out the painfully obvious would be an insult to my audience. As I do not actively disrespect my audience I allow blatantly obvious points to be self evident. Since apparently it is necessary to spell out the very obvious I did so.

Quote
Eh. Frank stuff. I've looked at their material - I like a lot of it(classes, feats), but not the idea of a Wish economy as a primary rule. Any DM smart enough to see that Frank's material patches up a lot of holes in 3.5 should also be smart enough to ban the things(Candles of Invocation) which make Wish Economies valid for characters playing levels 1-16 the moment someone tries to buy one.
I don't know the guy himself, though from both your argument and those defending him:
1. It seems like he's like you but...
2. He knows how to explain his side of the argument better with logic than what I'm seeing here.

Everything except the Fighter argument is weak. I'm going to have to give you a bad critique on this one. If TM20 is wrong, then there should be more logical holes in his argument than just the Fighter thing.

 

See above, and try actually reading the thread if you honestly believe that is the only flaw. As for Frank's work, I don't agree with it either. But in stark opposition to the false claims being made against me the fact I do not agree with something does not mean that I will condemn it as invalid. The man knows his shit even if I don't see eye to eye on his style, which is why it is so amusing to stab holes in the BAW BAW BUTTHURT arguments regarding him.

Edit: Treant, the obvious contradictions that have already been pointed out aside you do realize you just argued that because he can finish off opponents that are crippled to the point of already being effectively dead that he's worth burning an equal share of resources on via XP, loot, spells... Know what else can do that? A camp follower (I think that's the name). You are honestly arguing that the guy that goes onto the battlefield after the real combatants are done to slit the throats of crippled opposition (because he cannot deal with enemies fighting at their true capacities, thus he has to pick on the weak after the real characters did all the work) is equally important. So in other words, you yourself are disputing your own argument by successfully proving he functions as a random lackey to the real characters. Ya know, lackeys have a mechanic too. It's called Leadership, and the bullshit of Leadership aside the fact the way it costs no XP and only half as much gold to keep your camp follower around while serving the same purpose makes the cohort objectively superior at its chosen role.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 01:18:22 PM by Sunic_Flames »
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Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2008, 01:18:54 PM »
Hmm.  I'm pretty sure that's what he said the wizard's role was in his guide too... at least if he's "God".  People didn't seem to mind it then.  Why is it any different now?

Never read his guide to being God. I don't play casters. They make me sick with how poorly designed they are let alone the overpowered nature of spells.

Quote from: TreantMonklvl20
This will make the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory.

Quote
and TM's most recent description...

Quote from: TreantMonklvl20
There is nothing wrong with the role of a fighter - stab the enemy in the face for lots of damage.  The role of the wizard is to ensure the fighter can reach it.

They aren't at all saying the same thing. One says, "hey, buff the Fighter every now and then. It'll make him feel better about himself and maybe your party won't hate you." The other says, "You are Wizard. You buff Fighter. That's what you were born to do."

Quote
My only question now is this... if he had used the first description instead of the second one, would you have bashed it the same?

I hope you know the correct answer.

Shit! Someone I don't know is scrutinizing me with an ultimatum based test! I hope I don't let him down!

As I said, I never read the original guide, but also I've demonstrated that the two aren't even saying the same thing. If I had ever seen anyone say, "The Wizard's role is to buff the Fighter" anywhere before I can swear to you on anything you want that I'd have bashed the hell out of it. I consider my response to it in this thread to be quite tame. That is literally the stupidest thing I've read in days.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 01:21:46 PM by bkdubs123 »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2008, 01:25:33 PM »
Funny thing is that 'wizard exists to buff the fighter' is exactly the argument used by those that errr... are rather devoid of intelligence.

Paizo was full of such people, who became the butt of 'make me hard' jokes. Because apparently sinking resources to make your least effective member suck slightly less is superior to ending the fucking encounter. Specific examples included Haste (1 round/level and the character could not afford the boots therefore requires burning a combat round), Prayer (see above, except it does less and isn't easily gotten from items), and Greater Heroism (high level spell, only a minute a level, and still weaksauce compared to other level 6 spells or buffs in general). All at once, in every fight.

This is Faelryinth's favored argument. Nuff said.

This is Maxperson's favored argument, and is used by him to justify the worst bullshit of all such as beatsticks not being item dependent, and characters with a whopping +8 to Will saves AT BEST being able to meaningfully contribute against something that has DC high 20s Will effects or be screwed such as Dominate.

So you have to ask yourself, do you really want to use arguments that are so magically fallicious that only the dregs of internet society would dare even consider using them as actual arguments?
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Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Soda

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2008, 02:16:11 PM »
How about a list of positive Pathfinder changes and a list of negative? Then we can take it to Paizo and see how they react.

You can't mess up power attack and tripping, it's vital. Bad, bad.  As for good, I like the sorcerer bloodlines. Bonus spells, bonus feats, bonus powers, and class skill. Some of the powers are cool. The feats are generally good. Spells are pretty well selected. Plenty of choices.



Good
Sorcerer Bloodlines


Bad
Power Attack
Combat Maneuvers



Add to it.

Senevri

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2008, 02:25:04 PM »
He's put far too much effort into his first post alone to qualify as someone who 'casually likes Pathfinder'.
So your argument for TM being a paizo fanboy is that he's less lazy than you'd expect?

Quote
A fanboy is someone who cannot accept their favored product is flawed and views any illustration of those flaws as a personal attack. Compare to someone who merely likes a product where you get more moderate replies such as I dunno... nearly everyone that took Paizo's side here starting with the original poster? So far your constant claims of 0% logic are serving only to describe your own claims.
Well, I just read through this thread and frankly, to me it's mostly slamming on Pathfinder RPG for not being be-all end-all.
Seriously, that's what it reads like.

They do have the problem of trying to stay compatible with existing material. Personally we just use races, classes, skills and CMB from Pathfinder, but Feats from older sources. CMB works much nicer when you get +4 from Improved X feats.

Yes, Wizards are still overpowered after a certain point. And then people complain about Polymorph line when EVERYONE knows it's overpowered as-is.

Quote
Edit: Treant, the obvious contradictions that have already been pointed out aside you do realize you just argued that because he can finish off opponents that are crippled to the point of already being effectively dead that he's worth burning an equal share of resources on via XP, loot, spells...

Actually, no. I just tried out a Solo Wizard. If you do BF control, you're not doing damage. If you're not doing damage, your enemies will get past BFC, eventually. This is true the entire majority of the game - most I Win buttons have a level of 6+. In fact, majority of campaigns starting at lv1 seem to peter out between levels 6 and 12.

In fact, WITHOUT another character dealing damage, your best bet is HP damage up to level... oh, 6-8, at least. While Glitterdust is a combat-ender, ( and thus got nerfed, apparently? Strange how everyone knows Wizards need nerfs, but complain endlessly if someone does so... ) it is also a hit-or-miss spell. At BEST, you'll have a DC in the 17-18 range, which - well, basically is a total hit-and-miss. Bad willed enemies still may succeed on a 19-20, while good-willed need a 12 or so. And if they do, you're in deep trouble.

Also recall that especially at low levels, your BFC spells last but a few rounds. After that, you're out of slots, and enemies will kill you, dead.

While you could hire, say, 1st-level warriors for the killing, you might as well another living human being, who doesn't care for scouring through spell lists, to do the job.

Oh, and:

Good
Sorcerer Bloodlines
Cleric Nerf
Skill System
Barbarian
Arcane Bond
HP Boost
Favored Class handling - no penalty, but a possible boost.

Bad
Power Attack
Combat Maneuvers
-----
Now that I think of it, you cannot nerf Wizard and stay compatible with old stuff. Not very well, anyway. On the up side, specializations aren't front-loaded anymore.

Sorcerer is better, but I don't think they went far enough with it. Needs even moar flavor.


I really liked The Warrior's Way, actually. but that's a different topic.

skydragonknight

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2008, 02:41:36 PM »
@Sunic Flames:

Ad hominem and slippery slope = logical fallacies = 0% logic.

Even the ad hominems themselves are based upon your opinion(NOT fact) that "anyone capable of debate and who likes the Paizo system MUST be a mindslave/fanboy".
Weak. False Dichotomy. People are allowed to be both intelligent and like something you don't.

There's only a few things in the world I truly hate and one of these is a weak argument.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2008, 03:03:15 PM »
@Sunic Flames:

Ad hominem and slippery slope = logical fallacies = 0% logic.

Even the ad hominems themselves are based upon your opinion(NOT fact) that "anyone capable of debate and who likes the Paizo system MUST be a mindslave/fanboy".
Weak. False Dichotomy. People are allowed to be both intelligent and like something you don't.

There's only a few things in the world I truly hate and one of these is a weak argument.

I will be blunt. The above quoted argument is full of Shit and Fail. Strawman less. See, if you were actually reading my posts before spewing shit everywhere, you would know that my argument is actually that going on, and on, and on about positive traits that do not even actually exist while getting all whiny when any actual flaws are pointed out is the definition of a fanboy, and I implicitly stated this was different from simply liking it. Stop spreading lies.

Senervi: Except they've already crossed that line, so they might as well try to fix shit. Your Glitterdust example? 55% chance to instantly negate the stuff good against it, 90% chance vs beatsticks and whatever. Compare to damage which has a 0% chance to negate any opponent it does not kill, and as early as level 5 you're looking at 56 average HP per creature. At low levels, Color Spray + Scythe = win. Sleep for variety. By the way, 'no penalty' is an illusion. If you make it no penalty and a possible bonus all you have done is raise the bar to whatever the bonus is. If you miss the bonus, guess what? You're effectively penalized, negative number or no negative number. This is otherwise known as 4.0 brand Fail.

For some reason Skydragon has chosen to make up blatant lies to derail threads and shit. Now I ask you directly skydragon, do you want this thread turned into a heap of bullshit where you make up false reasons to attack me and I smite you for it, or do you want the thread to maintain some slight semblance of productivity? It makes no difference to me either way, but if you want this thread to have a point cease your attacks NOW.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 03:05:10 PM by Sunic_Flames »
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Senevri

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2008, 03:50:22 PM »
Senervi: Except they've already crossed that line, so they might as well try to fix shit. Your Glitterdust example? 55% chance to instantly negate the stuff good against it, 90% chance vs beatsticks and whatever.
At low levels, you only live once. That's a 10%-45% chance of ending up dead. You just snatched Scorching Ray, which averages 14 damage. This outright kills most CR1 challenges. ( ones I looked at for those percentages. )

Although, arguably Scorchy is tad overpowered for it's level. It's equal to a TWF ranger with 16 STR (gasp!) hitting twice.

At those levels, it's a no-save-die. The larger the opposing group, however, the better a Save-or spell such as this.
But, don't let me try and convince you. Roll up a few characters and pit them against appropriate encounters and see what works. Results may surprise you.
Quote
Compare to damage which has a 0% chance to negate any opponent it does not kill, and as early as level 5 you're looking at 56 average HP per creature.
A single CR 5 creature vs. a solo mage is a boss level encounter. It's okay, I think. Depends. At level 5 you could be encountering groups of several orcs or hobgoblins instead. A fireball would wipe those out. Glitterdust would make a group of enemies simple for a MELEE ALLY to mow down. A solo wizard will be whittling down those with... what exactly? How do you kill those blinded, stumbling opponents?

Let's punch some numbers: A non-pathfinder wizard will have 24 HP at that level, BAB of +2 and at most,
5/4/2 slots. Possibly +1 each from specialization, or 4/3/1 + 3 spec. with FS.
Your DCs start at 16, and go up to 19. Possibly one more, for a Focused school, if you spent a feat on it.

Encounters RARELY, if EVER start outside 200ft range. More commonly, they start within a charging distance.

For CR 5 encounters, let's look at -
Two Ogres,
A Huge Animated Object (84 HP, sucky will)
A Greater Barghest (64 HP, +10 will, scent)
Four Thoqqua.
3rd has some nice disablers in Sleet Storm, and I guess Summon Swarm might still work on a large number of opponents, but honestly, it varies... Blindness alone doesn't hinder opponents with Scent or Tremorsense all that much, and you're squishy enough that you're lucky to survive two, three rounds with them. What would you do?

Quote
At low levels, Color Spray + Scythe = win. Sleep for variety.
The point of your argument is in not needing allies. This means you cannot fail once. Sleep doesn't work on half the stuff, so you'd better hope you're not facing skeletons or zombies.

Quote
By the way, 'no penalty' is an illusion. If you make it no penalty and a possible bonus all you have done is raise the bar to whatever the bonus is. If you miss the bonus, guess what? You're effectively penalized, negative number or no negative number. This is otherwise known as 4.0 brand Fail.
Well, what would you do? There are ONLY three options: Penalize, Reward or Do Nothing. Elves as a race ARE wizards and woodland fighters. Dwarves ARE armored warriors. And so forth. You could leave it as a flavor text, I guess, but it's easy enough for a DM to say, "In my game, favored classes for these races are...."

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2008, 03:59:18 PM »
Ok, Scorching Ray at level 3, which has around a +3 to hit at the outside vs touch AC 10-12 (this is being generous). That's a 30-40% chance to fail and die even if 14 damage actually will kill them. Or cut the middle man and Glitterdust for about the same maximum fail chance and a significantly lower minimum fail chance. Whatever.

The rest of your post is missing the point. The point is 'camp follower' is not a valid role. It's certainly not worth the XP, loot, and resource drain compared to almost any other party member who can do more, or no party member at all there (group is you + 2 others instead of you + 2 others + camp follower) in which case everyone gets more stuff.

Oh, by the way? If you're surviving 2-3 rounds you're doing as good or better at absorbing damage than the so called tank (who is actually a camp follower).
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Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2008, 04:17:45 PM »
Sunic... I don't think that guy, is really worth resonding too.
Look at his list of "good"/"Bad"?
You can't argue with someone whose mindset is so diametrically opposite.
Good:
Sorcerer Bloodlines: The flavor of that was good. Some of the abilities could be tweaked. It was solid over all though.

Neutral:
Skill System: not particularly much better.
Arcane Bond
HP Boost
Favored Class handling - no penalty, but a possible boost.  This is the "Any fix is a good fix" rubic No one likes th favored classes but some of us like the flavor (like 3 people in idaho) So fix it another way feats, prcs, sub levels. . . I liked that sub level thing... Bhu did a Orc sorceror that was excellent and made sense... I suspected there should have been one for Dwarf paladin too...

Bad
Power Attack
Combat Maneuvers
Cleric Nerf: Problem with this is unless you're saying any nerf is a good nerf with cleric this isn't really good
Barbarian: Wtf? Seriouly so you're answer is to make the barbarian a worse version of the psiwar? Shitty for both implement and lack of originality. I can do it better and will.

Aside fron that. . . some of you are just arguing against sunic or Dkbubs not thier ideas about Patfiner, that shit needs to be taken elsewhere. PM duel of wits... whatever.
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Senevri

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2008, 04:25:05 PM »
30-40% fail chance is better than a 45+% fail chance.

Quote
The point is 'camp follower' is not a valid role.
"does not actually kill the enemies" is?

Also, do note that a well-equipped, well-built fighter is ALSO capable of killing the listed opponents. Not sure how he'd do vs. flying at that level, but prepared actions might help.
A Fighter's HP should be 42+ at that point, AC above 20. Should be able to withstand 6 rounds against most of those.
This is keeping in mind, a Fighter the class is one of the weakest melee classes.

Now, running away - that, a 5th level mage can be very very good at. Actually, for a solo situation, that is a much better use of mage's primary talent - <snip long explanation> - being Batman.

The fact is, your BFC at those levels is. not. killing. anyone. You NEED someone for that. Sure, if your DM allows, it could be a bunch of hirelings. Action economy is what keeps fighters relevant for, oh, a bit longer yet. They don't become The Load... well, for a few levels more.

The optimal solution at that level is disable + HP damage to kill. If you don't have someone else doing it, you'll have to do it yourself. Fact is, without help you'll be having hard time dealing with several types of appropriate-CR encounters. BFC might work as a defense, but you'll be spending at least ONE additional spell slot for actually killing anything. And that's if you're lucky.

M_v, I'll give you Favored Classes could be handled in other ways. I like Reward over Penalize, and it's simple. Maybe I am saying that "any fix is a good fix", but it's better than default 3.5, and I don't mind that it's not the best it could possibly be.

Similarily, Any nerf is a good nerf if a class is freakin' totally OVERPOWERED. If you don't like Pathfinder's nerf --- er, fix, use your own. I've been playing a Pathfinder cleric for a few levels now and it's so much more in line with other classes it's annoying. Also, outside nerf, the fact it effectively has out-of-combat healing is a very very nice thing. The Turn mechanism is much more sensible now, and actually somewhat useful at any level.