Author Topic: How to Challenge my Players?  (Read 2699 times)

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ZeroEffect

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How to Challenge my Players?
« on: December 11, 2008, 11:24:26 AM »
I'm looking for ways to challenge my players. They are a bunch of intelligent, crafty, and cocky optimizers. They don't resent a good challenge so don't hold back in your suggestions. I'm interested in tactics, adversaries, traps, and situational challenges.

We're using Pathfinder Beta rules. Level 11+. The party is composed as follows: fighter, paladin, monk, ranger/rogue, wizard, and cleric. The players work well together as a group. As the DM I'm able to use whatever books I want, including homebrew ideas. Players are limited to Pathfinder, core D&D 3.5, and the Complete series. I'm using a highly modified and expanded map of Castle Ravenloft and I'm creating all of my own encounters. I'm focusing mostly on caster and demon bosses controlling waves of advanced undead.

What are some of the deadliest and coolest challenges that you've used in your campaigns? Or that you've come across as a player?

I will compile suggestions here:

- cleverly buffed dragon in his lair (red dragon + iron golem minion)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 11:52:19 AM by ZeroEffect »

StPeteGamer

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Re: How to Challenge my Players?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2008, 11:31:19 AM »
There is always the buffed out dragon with super trapped lair and complimentary supporting monsters.  Red dragon + Iron golem is the classic IMO and I am sure there are others...

ZeroEffect

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Re: How to Challenge my Players?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 11:41:23 AM »
Yeah, the buffed out dragon is a great idea! Thanks! I remember an old Dragon magazine (very old... AD&D) that described an intelligently designed and played dragon (and his lair and minions). I can't find the issue, though. The game we're getting together for this holiday is level 11+. My design so far is very undead- and evil outsider-centric. I'm considering statting out some sort of undead dragon. Dragotha perhaps? Love the iron golem idea, too.

RobbyPants

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Re: How to Challenge my Players?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2008, 11:41:55 AM »
I know next to nothing about Pathfinder, so some of the advice may or may not suit you.

One of the scariest things a group can go up against is a well prepared wizard.  Wizards are one of those things where you have to be careful how you set them up.  If you soft ball them much, the wizard will fall in a single round.  If you play the wizard smart, you might have a total party wipe on your hands.  Basically, try to use a few spells to target various PC's weaknesses and take them out of the fight for a few rounds.  Some good ideas include:
  • Hold Person vs weak Will save
  • Solid Fog centred on one or more PCs (buys you several rounds)
  • Combos like Quickened Web and Evard's Black Tenticles on the same area to make it hard to escape.
  • Solid debuffs like a metamagiced Ray of Enfeeblement against a strong opponent.  Optionally, use this on a weak opponent to drop his Str to 1 and pin him under the weight of his own gear.
  • Summon Monster a few rounds in advance to help with action economy (you don't want your PCs getting four actions to the wizard's one).


I'm not sure what level the group is, but have the wizard be roughly two levels higher.  Given a couple rounds to buff, he'll be tough to take down.
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Ieniemienie

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Re: How to Challenge my Players?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2008, 11:42:03 AM »
- level?
- setting?
- books allowed?
- etc...

I always liked this one
'DnD is not a game; it is a membership in a tribe that I joined long ago.'

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woodenbandman

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Re: How to Challenge my Players?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2008, 11:52:25 AM »
Oh the evil druid is always fun, as is the shadowcraft mage, the anima mage, the ur priest-bard theurge, etc. My favorite thing to do is to lie to the players. Introduce a "paladin" who's really a cleric. A "bard" is really a sublime chord/Jade Phoenix Mage gish. Chameleons are great.

RobbyPants

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Re: How to Challenge my Players?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2008, 12:16:34 PM »
On the topic of "lying", you can always change thing that the players take for granted.  For example, try something like:
  • As Woodenbandman suggested, use one class (or several) to represent another.  The players will be surprised at what the NPC is capable of.  Hell, a well build spellsword could come off looking completely like a fighter, only to surprise them with magic.  You could do this more easiliy with a straight cleric.
  • Use a troll that regenerates all damage except cold damage (or whatever).  The players will get confounded as it heals fire and acid damage.  Use similar tricks with dragons that disguise their color.
  • Illusions in general can confound players.  Hide dozens of pits and traps in a seemingly normal battlefield.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: How to Challenge my Players?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2008, 01:06:00 PM »
Is there some particular reason you're using PF rules? Because as long as you are that party is two Gods and four Red Shirts. Even more so than in normal 3.5. Anything that remotely threatens the Cleric or Wizard will utterly annihilate everyone else. Anything appropriate for the everyone else is owned by the Cleric and Wizard, likely while making out with one or more of the other party members. Doesn't matter what caliber of optimizer they are, they don't have the right tools and will therefore fail.

Also, don't use undead dragons. Dragons are too strongly tied to Con. Guess what Undead lose? End result is dragon loses the vast majority of its HP and most of its ability to threaten the party.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: How to Challenge my Players?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 01:14:26 PM »
Yeah, the buffed out dragon is a great idea! Thanks! I remember an old Dragon magazine (very old... AD&D) that described an intelligently designed and played dragon (and his lair and minions). I can't find the issue, though. The game we're getting together for this holiday is level 11+. My design so far is very undead- and evil outsider-centric. I'm considering statting out some sort of undead dragon. Dragotha perhaps? Love the iron golem idea, too.
Here is an old NPC of mine that you might use/modify. This was the ECL 20 version from a CO contest. I also had an ECL 15 or 16 version that I actually used, but it was basically the same.

Rhea of the Coos
[spoiler]Race: Human
Classes: Cleric3/Wizard(Necromancer)3/TrueNecromancer14

Description: Rhea commands a fearless, tireless army that will obey any command from her, even if it means their certain destruction. What else could a commander wish for? (up to 3858 hit dice of Undead, not counting followers and her cohort)

Character Sheet: (note: her physical stats shouldn't matter most of the time, as she will be possessing one of her undead via Magic Jar at all times if possible. See the Tactics section for details.)
Hit Dice: HD 3d8+3d4+14d6+60, Hit Points 133 (Avg)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: AC 15 w/o buffs
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+8
Attack:
Full Attack:
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Horrid Wilting, Energy Drain, and Wail of the Banshee each 1xday at Caster Level 24
Caster Levels: wiz19, clr19, +4 Necromancy and +4 with Karma Bead. Save DCs are 20+level Arcane, 19+level Divine, and +1 for Necromancy
Saves: Fort +16, Refl +9, Will +24
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 18
Skills: I'm not going to bother. She has plenty of skill points, as Int is her main stat.
Feats: Necromantic Presence, Necromantic Might, Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric, Corpsecrafter, Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard, Spell Focus: Necromancy, Destruction Retribution, Undead Leadership
Alignment: Neutral Evil

Starting Ability Scores: Str 8, Con 12, Dex 8, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 16
Final Ability Scores: Str 8, Con 16 (12+1Leveling+2Gutworm+2Amulet-1SoulTick), Dex 8, Int 30 (16+6item+5tome+3Leveling), Wis 28 (16+6item+5tome+1Leveling), Cha 22 (16+6item)

Progression:
1 Cleric 1; Spell Focus: Necromancy, Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric (h)
3: Cleric 3; Corpsecrafter
4 Wizard 1; Scribe Scroll (b)
6 Wiz 3; Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard
7 True Necro 1
9 TN 3; Necromantic Presence
12 TN 6; Necromantic Might
15 TN 9; Destruction Retribution
18 TN 12 Undead Leadership
20 TN 14

Fiendish Symbionts: Fiendish Familiar, Soul Tick, Gutworm
Magic Items:
The Lich King's Scepter is a piece of obsidian, crafted to look like a skeletal forearm which is grasping a skull with rubies for eyes. It functions as a Rod of Undead Mastery (doubles HD of controlled undead (via spells, not rebuked), 10000) with abilities of a Scepter of the Netherworld (+3 to level for Rebuking, +13500 gold) and Night Stick (+4 rebuke attempts per day, +11250 gold) added. It is rumored that if it is combined with other artifacts of similiar name, more properties will be unlocked. (34750 total)

Strand of Prayer Beads (Karma, Smiting, Healing) (25k); Monk's Belt (13000), Amulet of Health +2 (4000). Belt, Scepter, and Prayer Beads have Dramij's Instant Summons and Nystal's Magic Aura cast on them. Portable Hole (20000)(can hold about 20 medium sized bodies, if they're stacked like cordwood ;) ).
Permanent Magic Effects: Major Resistance (+4 saves, 1000XP), Blindsight (30ft., 1500XP), Symbol of Weakness on one skeletal giant's armor (3500XP). She either paid someone to cast Permanency for these, or had her cohort to do it (whichever is legal. I don't feel like doing the math to reduce her by one level)

Money: I may go back and figure out her expenses in detail, but then again... I might not. I didn't come close to spending all of the 760,000 on her. So for now I'll just say the rest was used for onyx to animate all these undead. ;) She was originally designed as an NPC, anyway, and so wouldn't have that much direct wealth.

Special abilities:
-Max HD of Animated Undead controlled: Directly: 414 cleric, 184 Wizard (598 combined). This is including using General of Undeath to add 10HD/level for cleric, and the Rod of Undead Mastery for both Wizard and Cleric levels. Indirectly: 3260 (see followers section)
-Rebuking: 12 times per day, level for rebuking purposes is 24
-Horrid Wilting 1xday at CL 24 (Save DC 23?)
-Major Zone of Desecration (140 foot radius, factored into Undead bonuses below)
-Create Undead 2xday (CL 24), Create Greater Undead 2xday (CL 24)
-Caster level: wiz19, clr19, +4 Necromancy and +4 with Karma Bead. Save DCs are 20+level Arcane, 19+level Divine, and +1 for Necromancy
-Soul Tick: All Negative Energy spells are automatically Empowered, but she takes a -1 Con penalty. Also is constantly protected by Protection from Good (or Chaos) at CL 12. Must make Spellcraft check to cast Positive Energy spell (DC 15+lvl).
-Fiendish Familiar: Ability scores are 2 higher for bonus spells. Gains 1 spell known per level.
-Gutworm: +2 inherent Con, Rage at Will, Neutralize Poison 1/day
-Undead Created by her and in her presence gain: +3 hp/HD (4 at shrine), +4 Str, +3 attack and saves, +1 damage, +4 Turn Resistance, and Turning attempts take a -3 Profane penalty on the Cha check. They also blow up when they are destroyed, dealing 1d6 + 1d6/2HD negative energy in a 10' burst.

Raven Familiar- HP 61

Spells:

Wizard Spellbook (Enchantment and Abjuration prohibited): Prepared Underlined DC = 20+level (+1 Necromancy)
0- (4) Detect Magic, Read Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, (and all others)
1-(7)+1 Mage Armor, Magic Missle*2, Chill Touch, Obscuring Mist, Identify, Detect Undead, Tenser's Floating Disk, Disguise Self, Negative Energy Ray, Nystal's Magic Aura, Silent Image, Ray of Enfeeblement, True Strike
2-(7)+1 Mirror Image, Command Undead, Ghoul Glyph, Lion's Charge, Invisibility, Scorching Ray, See Invisibility
3-(7)+1 Improved Mage Armor*2, Spirit Servant (custom), Fly, Haste, Displacement, Slow, Shrink Item
4-(6)+1 Evard's Black Tentacles, Superior Darkvision, Polymorph, Fear, Solid Fog, Enervation, Dimension Door
5-(6)+1 Cloudkill, Improved Blink, Kiss of the Vampire, Fabricate, Permanency, Magic Jar, Cone of Cold, Teleport
6-(5) Shadow Walk*2, Contingency, Disintegrate*2, Animate Dread Warrior, Ghoul Gauntlet, Wall of Iron
7-(4) Waves of Exhaustion, Reverse Gravity, Symbol of Weakness, Drawmij's Instant Summons, Forcecage, Mass Invisibility
8-(2) Polymorph Any Object, Clone, Horrid Wilting*2

Scrolls: Waves of Fatigue (using at attack), Teleport (familiar has), Magic Jar (using before attack), 2xSpirit Servant (custom, using before attack), Solid Fog (may use at attack), Superior Darkvision (using before attack). Shrink Item (using before attack)

Prepared Cleric spells: DC = 19+level (+1 Necromancy)
0-6 Detect Magic, Light, Read Magic, Mending, Cure Minor Woundsx2
1-8+1 Chill of the Grave (D, 63LM, 4d10 cold ray, close), Sanctuary, 3xShield of Faith, Deathwatch, Command, Cure Light Wounds
2-8+1 Death Knell (D) Make Whole, Prayer, Hold Personx2, Silence, Darkness, Sound Burst
3-7+1 Animate Dead (D) Invisibility Purge, Protection from Positive Energy, Meld into Stone, Protection from Energy, Blindness/Deafness, Summon Undead 3
4-6+1 Wither Limb (D) Dimensional Anchor, 2xSummon Undead 4, Freedom of Movement
5-6+1 Slay Living (D) 2xSpell Resistance, True Seeing
6-5+1 Revive Undead(D) Greater Dispel Magic, Antilife Shell, Harm*2, Blade Barrier
7-3+1 Avasculate (D), Greater Consumptive Field, Destruction, Greater Scrying
8-2+1 Avascular Mass (D), Unholy Aura, Discern Location


Tactics:
Pre-attack:
1) Use Shadow Walk to transport large amounts of undead to the Border Shadow at the location of the attack. She can take 19 other creatures with her and 20 ghouls will fit into her portable hole, along with the swarms. The dread warrior is carrying the portable hole.
2) When they get there, she will cast Meld with Stone on her familiar. She then casts Magic Jar, and possesses a ghoul. Next she casts Shrink Item on her lifeless body, which her familiar picks up. The familiar then melds into a 1 ft. diameter stone from one of the giant's packs. The zombie dragon takes this stone.
3) She casts all the buffs listed below and they all exit Shadow Plane. The Undead all attack immediately, with the Fomorians trying to smash down the any pallidades or keep doors. The dragon drops the stone with her familiar and body in it at the edge of the battlefield, and he and the Dread Knight fly up into the air. The Dread Knight fires his bow and watches for anyone flying out of the keep.
3) All of the undead will have spell component pouches and cheap holy symbols, and will be instructed not to resist her if she tries to possess them.
Attack:
1) She plans to open up with Evard's Black Tentacles (grapple check 23, 1d6+4dmg, 1/2 movement) and Waves of Fatigue (-6Str&Dex, 1/2 movement). Then hit them with a Slow spell (Will DC 18 or partial actions, 1/2 movement, -1att, AC, Ref). The huge undead Snatch enemies and throw them into the Evard's area and use their Snatch feat on attacks of opportunity to keep them from leaving. They should be able to beat the Evard's grapple checks if they get caught in it. The undead swarms also move in to feast upon those trapped by the tentacles.
2) Next she and her cohort start dumping Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, and Horrid Wilting (Sp) around/on the trapped enemies. The skeletons are immune to Cone of Cold and Cloudkill. The ghouls are cannon fodder, and their deaths will serve to heal the greater undead via Destruction Retribution.
3) Use Ray of Enfeeblement to try and incapacitate any spellcasters (hopefully they already lost 6 str from Waves of Fatigue). Hit them with an Enervation, too, to drain off spells and weaken saves. Then follow up with a Disintegrate once their saves are weakened.
4) The ghouls will be spread out, attacking anyone who manages to get out of or avoid the Evard's death trap.
5) The dread warrior will be riding the zombie dragon, and they will attack anyone who flies up out of the combat area, and will especially go after spellcasters, as the dread warrior has Silence cast on him.
6) If she feels like she needs cover, she'll cast Silent Image and create an image of a Prismatic Sphere around her.


Buffs cast before exiting shadow: Shield of Faith on hydra, dragon, and dread warrior. Improved Mage Armor on hydra, Mage Armor on dragon. Silence, Freedom of Movement, and Spell Resistance on dread warrior. Mass Invisibility on all of them.
On "her": Contingency (if someone begins to cast a Greater Dispel Magic at her, she Dimension Doors straight up to max range), Deathwatch, Protection from Positive Energy, Spell Resistance, True Seeing, Mirror Image, Fly. She has paid to have a Contingent Spell placed on her, also. It is the same as her own Contingency, but the trigger is for Mordenkainen's Disjunction instead of Greater Dispel Magic.
Last ones to cast: Antilife Shell, Displacement, Improved Blink, and Haste.

Cohort, Followers, and Other Undead:

All 163 of her Followers are Necropolitan Wizards, and they all can cast Control Undead. The 1st level ones have the Precocious Apprentice feat, which allows them to cast one second level spell per day. This greatly expands the amount of Hit Dice of undead under her indirect control. Non-intelligent undead get no save, and the spell lasts 1day per level and has no hit die cap on what it can affect. So she can create large amounts of uncontrolled undead via Animate Dead, and her followers can take control of them for her.

Since the Animate Dead spell seems to be limited to creating creatures with 20 HD or less (see the zombie and skeleton templates), that means that in total her followers can theoretically add 3260 HD of undead to her indirect control. Of course, due to many factors, the number actually controlled in this manner at a given time will be signifigantly less than this. But even half that amount is a fairly impressive army of undead.

Her cohort is a Necropolitan Incantatrix with the following feats: Chain Spell, Lord of the Uttercold, and Black Lore of Moil. Both he and his master also have Soul Ticks, which automatically Empowers any Negative Energy spells they cast. So if he casts a Maximized Cone of Cold, it will do half Negative Energy damage via Lord of the Uttercold, and do 4d6 more Negative Energy damage via Black Lore of Moil, and all of the damage will be Empowered via the Soul Tick. Most of her undead will be skeletons, which are immune to cold and healed by negative energy.

Her army of undead definitely should be mostly made up of skeletal hydras and giants. Hulking Corpses would make the best undead for her followers to take control of via Command Undead, but I don't know how she could create them. High hit die skeletons would also work almost as well. She would have at least one zombie dragon for a mount for her cohort. All of these undead would be awakened via Awaken Undead, which should give them feats and skills appropriate for their hit dice.
Books Used: Libris Mortis, Fiend Folio, Complete Arcane, Player's Guide to Faerun. [/spoiler]
Here is an ECL 11 Ur-Priest that should be pretty horrible, and make a good villain. This post contains a version with a really awesome PrC from Frank and K.

You might find a few more useful things in here.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 01:20:47 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

juton

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Re: How to Challenge my Players?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2008, 01:27:47 PM »
I remember when our adventuring party went up agaisnt a competing party. You can choose to make mirror images of your PCs or bust out some of those evil-only classes. I'd limit them to two levels beneath the PCs, otherwise with a few lucky roles you might TPK.

juton

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Re: How to Challenge my Players?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2008, 01:31:01 PM »
Is there some particular reason you're using PF rules? Because as long as you are that party is two Gods and four Red Shirts. Even more so than in normal 3.5. Anything that remotely threatens the Cleric or Wizard will utterly annihilate everyone else. Anything appropriate for the everyone else is owned by the Cleric and Wizard, likely while making out with one or more of the other party members. Doesn't matter what caliber of optimizer they are, they don't have the right tools and will therefore fail.

Also, don't use undead dragons. Dragons are too strongly tied to Con. Guess what Undead lose? End result is dragon loses the vast majority of its HP and most of its ability to threaten the party.

I've been playing with Pathfinder for several months now, I don't know where this perception that casters are more powerful in PF. Sure they can do more at low levels but they nerfed a lot of staple spells like glitterdust and the entire polymorph/alter shape line of spells.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: How to Challenge my Players?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2008, 01:35:47 PM »
Where is the information for making Major Resistance and Blindsight Permanent?

Juton: Pathfinder nerfed the ever loving shit out of non casters. Generally this means they lost what few tricks they had. Meanwhile casters get free metamagics and the like. Only spells that really got screwed with are the ones that get banned anyways like Wish loops.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]