Aid Another...

[Hallack]

Okay this is as much me letting off some steam as asking a question.

Do any of you limit when aid another can be used in very offhand ways simply to make it more difficult for party?

I fear this may be a developing habit of our 4E playtest DM.  Guess he just doesn't like the idea of all those bonuses helping the party be more sucessful 

In particular I think he does not like that I have the party Aid Anothering me on Perception as we are doing our stuff.

Hopefully I am mistaken and it is not a developing trend. 

[Banor]

For Perception, I understand why he doesn't like it. Just tell him that they aren't actually helping you "percept" better, but they grab their very own infos and with what you saw, help you realize the big deal.

IE having two person aiding you on Perception is basically giving you 360 vision which is clearly at least a +4 to find an ambush

[Hallack]

yeah, I understand his misgivings I just disagree with them (as a DM and as a Player). 

In our learning and testing of 4E we have taken many lumps that have forced us to be a better 'team' so that we don't get our asses handed to us.

4e party dynamic is very much about teamwork and team synergies > than sum of parts.

As needed I will be encouraging the party to do the same thing with other skills as well (unless he nips it in the bud).

Such aiding another is very much within the spirit and the rules of the game.  And it can be tough enough without denying the party their by the rules capabilities.

Oh well, we will be done with H1 in a few sessions I think and then I will be running H2 for the group.  Perhaps I can teach him by example what he can not grasp by the telling.  A game shouldn't be and exercise in frustration.

[Dan2]

One thing you may want to do is make it clear to the DM that the group is actively trying to work together on whatever it is.
If you cover this before the check is called for, it will make it much, much easier for you to argue that aid another is applicable.

Example: when you set out into the wilderness, let the DM know that the team is not looking around independently, but is coordinating their efforts and having certain people look in certain directions etc.

[Hallack]

He knows.  It's just his style.  *shrug*

[brislove]

If you can explain what action they are taking to help you notice something then I would give it to you. If you are just like "i aid him in looking at things" it's just kinda how? if it's something that might be useful I'll grant the bonus. but if you aid someones perception by looking around the same way they are, you are just making your own check.

[veekie]

It might also be easier, roll wise, to combine the party's perception roll, into a single one, use the guy with the biggest mod and roll with everyone's +2. Just for the sake of expediency only though.

[Hallack]

Yeah, and seems to me that large part of the intent behind the 'aid another' rules is allowing the team to due things that they could not do individually.  Working together they have better shot (or even have a shot if DC is high enough) in many skills.  I don't care if it is searches, listening, diplomacy, or candle making, it just makes sense to me.

It is a game mechanic that handles working together.

[Alpha]

Flavoring a perception Aid Another shouldn't be as difficult as people perhaps think.

The ranger, knowing that his party won't be good at spotting stuff, asks them to not bother looking, but instead to just listen.
In the real world, focusing exclusively on one sense increases your chance of detecting something via that sense.
The perception check does not discriminate for this, so the Ranger with the high perception uses all his senses(he IS a ranger, after all).  Because the ranger is covering sight/smell, the party is free to focus on one sense.
In real life, this situation would actually enhance the perception checks of the party members.  The mechanics in D&D, however, are built such that the bonus would have to go to the Ranger instead, in the form of an Aid Another.

[PhoenixInferno]

I know I saw in the DMG somewhere that Aid Another should be limited to 2 people, so that keeps the super-stacking down.

[Hallack]

Yep, there are reasonable limits placed on it by the rules.  I was thinking it was like 4 or 5 though but that may be the rule for 4e.

Regardless, I do not even mind further limiting it based on situation ie narrow space working on trap... just not enough room for more than one person to Aid.

[Banor]

PI it was in the Skill Challenge Errata IIRC

[PhoenixInferno]

It seems like a reasonable limitation to have at all times, though.

[Banor]

yea I agree on that, was just pointing where it was found.

*picture a group of 20 helping a rogue pick lock a door*

[Faithless tbe Wonder Boy]

It's fairly irrelevant to what the discussion has become, but my DM limits Aid Another.  He doesn't like that the DC to Aid Another does not scale with level, so he makes it scale.  The idea is that it should be harder to aid on a DC 35 check than it is to aid on a DC 14.

I'm not sure what formula he uses, but in general, he makes aiding about twice as easy as making a check.  It makes it so that you don't auto-succeed on Aid Another checks by the time you hit paragon.

I haven't minded the change a bit, and neither has anyone else in the party.  We're still happy to aid each other for better tactics, we just pay a little more attention to it now.

[Banor]

That is actually a very reasonable change. I might use it for my games too.