Author Topic: "Why Should I Change?" - Deleted Scenes  (Read 8960 times)

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Josh

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Re: "Why Should I Change?" - Deleted Scenes
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2008, 09:21:10 PM »
Does anyone still think experiences can be the same?[/quotep

Yup.  'Cause if we're speaking literally, then its logically possible.  And if we're speaking more figuratively, then its even more likely and still logically possible.



Excuse me, I misspoke.  Does anyone think it is true and have any ideas about how it may be true?

1) Logically, different systems do different things.  And doing different things equals different experiences.  So the basic concept is that different systems equal different experiences.

2) In practice there are no two published games that deliver the same experience. 

« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 11:32:23 PM by Josh »
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flannel

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Re: "Why Should I Change?" - Deleted Scenes
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2008, 10:04:01 PM »
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« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 10:07:36 PM by flannel »
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flannel

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Re: "Why Should I Change?" - Deleted Scenes
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2008, 10:07:12 PM »
1) Logically, different systems do different things.  And doing different things equals different experiences.  So the basic concept is that different systems equal different experiences.

Logically (gotta be careful with that word), different systems may do different things but don't necessarily yield different results (assuming by results, we mean something simply measurable).  Which would mean that doing different things may equal different experiences (depending on what we mean by experiences).  Which means the basic concept (?) is that different systems may equal different experiences.

That's what it would look like, Logically.

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2) In practice there are no two published games that deliver the same experience. 

Entirely, again, dependant on what we mean by experience--but if we mean literally, then there are LIKELY no two publshed games that deliver the same experience.
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Josh

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Re: "Why Should I Change?" - Deleted Scenes
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2008, 11:41:50 PM »
1) Logically, different systems do different things.  And doing different things equals different experiences.  So the basic concept is that different systems equal different experiences.

Logically (gotta be careful with that word), different systems may do different things but don't necessarily yield different results (assuming by results, we mean something simply measurable).  Which would mean that doing different things may equal different experiences (depending on what we mean by experiences).  Which means the basic concept (?) is that different systems may equal different experiences.

That's what it would look like, Logically.

No you are incorrect. 

True: Different systems do different "actions"
True: The "actions" you do are the result of the system
True: The sum of the actions you do is the part of the game that comes from system
True: Experience = Actions from system + Actions from color
True: If you do different things, you are not doing the same thing

Then also true: Different systems give different experiences

QEDMF

That would be what we call "deduction."

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Quote
2) In practice there are no two published games that deliver the same experience. 

Entirely, again, dependant on what we mean by experience--but if we mean literally, then there are LIKELY no two publshed games that deliver the same experience.
Again no.  No two published games DO give the same experience.  Out of the dozens of games I know.


Look at every game.  Is what they do different in some way?  Again, practically it turns out that what happens is different.  And since every one I have seen is different, I believe all are different.

In the biz we call that "Induction."
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 11:52:18 PM by Josh »
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flannel

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Re: "Why Should I Change?" - Deleted Scenes
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2008, 03:24:34 AM »
No you are incorrect. 

Heh, I'm listenin'.  What we got?

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True: Different systems do different "actions"

False.  Different systems may do actions differently, but different systems can do the same action--given that we mean action to be "an observable result".  So, different systems may do the same action (swinging a sword at someone) in different ways (rolling a d20 or using a resource point).  The outcomes can be identical, and the method different.  Is that not true?

Also, different systems can have the exact same mechanics for a few things, making them do the same actions even in the same way.

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True: The "actions" you do are the result of the system

Not entirely true.  Actions one does seem to be a combination of the system, and the intention of the person calling on that system.  The system, by itself, does nothing but look like text on a page without an actor using them.  So, the "actions" one does are the result of the system /and other things/ (chance, for instance would be a huge determiner of whether an action occured and in what way; so would goal setting; etc.).

So, if actions are also related to the premise of "actor", we'll say... then there are elements that are not system dependant in an action (and we can firmly establish that depending on what we mean an action to be, the system may have different ways of doing it but the same action may be done).  System doesn't seem quite to be the big determiner.

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True: The sum of the actions you do is the part of the game that comes from system

Not entirely true.  The sum of the actions one does is in part due to the game and the system.  See previous.

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True: Experience = Actions from system + Actions from color

Not entirely true.  "Experience" is a hard thing to define.  I would disagree with your definition because it is woefully incomplete for explaining other things we understand to be experience.  If we are to take "experience" to mean "literal and observed happenings" then we couldn't ever call "fun" an experience one could have--we can't observe "fun" nor measure "fun" nor record "fun"... the best we can do is observe, measure or record "fun"-like behaviors.  However, if for the purposes of our exampling we want to use a definition of "experience" to mean "literal happenings", that's fine.  We have to acknowledge though that we're ignoring fundamental questions for expediency of answers.

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True: If you do different things, you are not doing the same thing

Truth value of your claim is dependant on what we mean by "things".  Its a matter of category and specificity (very common issue in any philosophy)... for instance, two men each building a house--one uses a hammer and the other a nail gun.  They are doing different things, but also the same thing (building a house) OR someone clapping and someone waving their hands (and are deaf)... both are doing the same thing (applauding) but by doing different things.

You have to better define what things are different and what are the categories of "thing" we mean to talk about.

For instance, one character could be shooting arrows and the other hacking with a sword... they both have a goal of "kill the bad guy".  They may do different things, but they would identify what they're doing as the same.  You can't overgenerlize at these points, Josh--its just bad reasoning. 

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Then also true: Different systems give different experiences

QEDMF

That would be what we call "deduction."

Ummm, no... not exactly "deduction" (and who is we?).  Deduction would be a seamless relationship between premises.  You leave a lot of instance and very little logical necessity between propositions.  Your logic is, thus, sloppy.  For instance, if your conclusion were deductively true, then there would be no possible example of a different system and a same experience.

But we've already provided that, and you've already acknowledged it (albeit reluctantly).  Which would mean, from the get go, any explanation would have to take care of that example (else be found rationally weak).

And what is QEDMF?

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Again no.  No two published games DO give the same experience.  Out of the dozens of games I know.

Ohhhhh... so you meant to say "...out of the ones I know"?  That changes things dramatically, that's not a statement of fact, then.  Its an anecdote.  Subject to different rules and far less authority.  However, the many or few games you may know don't really have anything to do with the point that statement was making.

I can break it down further for you, if you need.

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Look at every game.  Is what they do different in some way?  Again, practically it turns out that what happens is different.  And since every one I have seen is different, I believe all are different.

In the biz we call that "Induction."

That's not exactly what induction is... what biz are you talking about?
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Josh

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Re: "Why Should I Change?" - Deleted Scenes
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2008, 03:42:46 AM »
"action" is in quotes.  I simplified the concept for you.

Action is "something mechanical that you do in a game."

I also fixed the copy-o

#define: action = "something mechanical that you do in a game."
#define: system = "the mechanical/mathematical part of a game" = game - color
#define: color = "the literary/descriptive part of a game" = game - system
#define: experience = "actions taken over time."

True: Different "systems" do different "actions"
True: The "actions" you do are the result of the "system"
True: Experience = "actions" from "system" + "actions" from "color"
True: If you do different "actions", you are not doing the same "action"

Then also true: Different "systems" give different experiences

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Do you seriously not know what inductive logic is?
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