Author Topic: Chase Rules  (Read 4758 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Orion

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Re: Chase Rules
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2008, 09:40:26 PM »
SiggyDevil, I just got distracted with other possibilities, but to be honest, I found your simplification hard to follow. That's not to say that there's anything wrong with the rules you've laid out, necessarily, but that I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to explain. Could you maybe mock up a round-by-round example? The way you've phrased the rules are very abstract and I'm having trouble seeing how they'd be applied.

SiggyDevil

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Magmar, the ultimate butthead
    • Feybook Project
Re: Chase Rules
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2008, 07:26:19 AM »
[d20 + value] vs. [10 + value]
Repeat up to X times with Y successes, or victory goes to one side or the other automatically as determined by situation.
That's seriously all there is to it.

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: Chase Rules
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2008, 09:38:49 AM »
I see what you mean. The only thing that's missing, really, is slight differences in foot speed. What you wrote really just spells out rules that already exist. Okay, how about this, then.
Yeah, after you mentioned that, and I looked back on it, I think most of what I already posted exists in some form or another, but I did make some changes.  Ultimately, I prefer the shorter sprint time with a gradual reduction in speed as opposed to the RAW longer sprint time that abruptly stops.  Other than that, I think most could be solved by forcing you to drop to a double move to do anything more complicated than jumping.


Instead of a whole system, we add a feat that allows you to increase your speed temporarily, call it "Sprint" as opposed to "Run," perhaps. There would have to be some consequences, like losing your Dex/Dodge bonuses to AC or something like that, and you should be able to do it only for brief bursts (rounds equal to Con modifier instead of score?). It would be the equivalent of running down the pitch at top speed, but also maintaining awareness of what's around you and being ready to stop on a time, turn, jump, etc. Basically all the things you really can't do while "Running" (in game terms).

Now, how much you can increase your speed should be somewhat granular. Not just a flat 10 ft. or something, because then we're back where we started. Double your modifier in [ability score, not sure which one], perhaps? That way, you basically keep track of distance between runners in a chase the same way you'd keep track of HPs in a fight, except that it's a relationship between the two (or more) people, not a set amount for each person. A little weird at first, probably, but still possibly workable.
I'd have to see a more complete suggestion of what you're thinking.  Gernerally I try to avoid odd formuals when creating my houserules, as they remind me of all the stuff I did back in 2E. ;)  Still, that's not to say it won't work.  A sprint feat might be pretty handy, in a chase.  There are only two issues I see with it:
  • You'd probably have to drop the Run feat, because increasing your speed from x4 to x5 is too good to pass up (unless maybe you took both feats to run even better).
  • I have a hard time picturing what the Sprint feat would do that would make me want to blow a feat slot on it.  At least in my experience, chases like this only come up once every few sessions.  I suppose in the right type of game (particularly a low-magic, city-based game), it could be useful as hell.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Orion

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Re: Chase Rules
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2008, 04:22:52 PM »
[d20 + value] vs. [10 + value]
Repeat up to X times with Y successes, or victory goes to one side or the other automatically as determined by situation.
That's seriously all there is to it.

Can you give me an example? I mean, I see the core mechanic (and thanks for explaining, I think I was over-thinking it), but actually seeing a few rounds of it would help me picture the possibilities.

Ultimately, I prefer the shorter sprint time with a gradual reduction in speed as opposed to the RAW longer sprint time that abruptly stops.

Yes! I like this very much. I think that's a great idea. A little more complicated, certainly, but the goal here is to add a bit more texture to chases, rather than "I'm faster, therefore I win."

Other than that, I think most could be solved by forcing you to drop to a double move to do anything more complicated than jumping.

Can you Jump while running? I just tried to look it up, but I couldn't find the relevant text.

I'd have to see a more complete suggestion of what you're thinking.  Gernerally I try to avoid odd formuals when creating my houserules, as they remind me of all the stuff I did back in 2E. ;)  Still, that's not to say it won't work.  A sprint feat might be pretty handy, in a chase.  There are only two issues I see with it:
  • You'd probably have to drop the Run feat, because increasing your speed from x4 to x5 is too good to pass up (unless maybe you took both feats to run even better).
  • I have a hard time picturing what the Sprint feat would do that would make me want to blow a feat slot on it.  At least in my experience, chases like this only come up once every few sessions.  I suppose in the right type of game (particularly a low-magic, city-based game), it could be useful as hell.
But if we create decent rules for chases, there might be more of them, eh? And if a given GM creates opportunities for a lot of chase scenes, then players have an incentive to take the feat. I'm thinking of putting this rule into my superhero system, and in that game, feats are cheap and plentiful.

In a standard d20 game, though, you could fold Spring and Run into one feat? The implication would be that you've learned running/chasing in both contexts, so you can do long-distance running ("Run"), or you can do short bursts ("Sprint").

The other thing that just occurs to me, though, is that "Run" is currently an manoeuvre available to everyone, and the Run feat is basically "Improved Run." Going by that thinking, anyone can "Sprint," and there could be something like "Improved Sprint" that makes you faster in short-bursts, or something like that.

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: Chase Rules
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2008, 04:51:58 PM »
Can you Jump while running? I just tried to look it up, but I couldn't find the relevant text.
Well, the Jump skill is rather ambiguous here.  It states that the DCs are assuming a running start (otherwise they're doubled), but it doesn't specify what a running start is other than moving in a straight line for at least 20 feet.

I guess the idea is if you have at least 20 feet, you can get up to a good speed.  It doesn't say that you can't make a jump while running.  My understanding of jumps is that they can be done as part of your normal movement so long as you don't exceed your total movement for the round.  Since running can only be done is a straight line, I think it would qualify you for the running jump.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Orion

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Re: Chase Rules
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2008, 09:58:25 PM »
It makes sense from a real-world perspective. What about the description for Running? I know you can't turn while you Run, but I can't find the text that says so.

Edit: I re-checked the Run and Jump descriptions, and they logically imply, but do not state, that you can indeed Jump during a Run action.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 02:18:11 AM by Orion »

Orion

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Re: Chase Rules
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2008, 02:00:34 AM »
So I worked with what we've said so far, and I wrote something up. It incorporates some of what RobbyPants wrote and some of my own ideas. I haven't included SiggyDevil's suggestion because I can't quite figure out what he's getting at (perhaps I'm over-thinking again?). This basically comes down to a new move action, "Sprint," and a change to the Run feat, as well as some guidelines for adjudicating Tumble and Jump checks in combat. (NB: In my games, I've folded Balance into Tumble, but I'll mark the places where you could use Balance.)

Chase Rules
The following rules are designed to work with, and in a couple of circumstances supersede, the standard movement rules for d20.
Starting a Chase is like starting combat. If someone starts to pursue someone or something else, you have a chase on your hands. You can have surprise rounds in Chases just like in combat (someone suddenly comes at your or runs away, without warning), and then everyone roles Initiative and you take turns as normal. You can even run Cases and combats simultaneously, with some people chasing and some fighting. Chasing comes down to two things, Sprinting (a new kind of move action), and Manoeuvrability (which is really just a set of guidelines for adjudicating other movement in Chases).

Sprinting
When you Sprint, you temporarily increase your movement to your Base Speed plus your Dexterity modifier, and you do not lose your Dexterity/ Dodge bonuses to your Defence score. You can Sprint for a number of rounds equal your Constitution modifier +5, after which, at the beginning of every round, you must make a Constitution check (DC 10). The Endurance feat grants a +4 on this check. If you pass the check, you can continue running, but at the beginning of your next round you make a new Con check and the DC increases by +2. If you fail the check, you must reduce your Sprint speed by 5 ft., but the Constitution check goes back down to DC 10, and the whole process starts again. Once you reduce your Sprint speed to 10 ft., you have to rest for 10 rounds (1 minute) before you can Sprint or Run (see the Run feat in Chapter 4 for more Sprinting rules).

Manoeuvrability
Your manoeuvrability comes into play when you have to avoid an obstacle, like jumping over an object, slipping around a gawking bystander, or making a high-speed turn. In such cases, your GM will call for a skill check as determined by the obstacle, usually Tumbling around/through something or someone, or Jumping over it.  Unless otherwise stated, if you fail a check, you must reduce your speed a number of feet equal how much you failed by (i.e., the difference between your modified roll and the DC). This reduction applies only to the current round. If it causes you to run out of movement for the round, then you stop where you are and have to start fresh the next round. Unless otherwise stated, if you fail a check by 10 or more, you fall prone, with all the logical consequences of doing so, including falling between two buildings or stumbling into traffic, for example. [See table, attached.]

Jump
You can Jump over any obstacle that your Jump score would allow, including people or open spaces (the most common being the chasm between two rooftops). Remember that when you make a running long Jump, your distance equals your modified Jump roll in feat. You can also make a running high Jump, in which case the distance equals your modified Jump roll in feat, divided by 4. If you fail to Jump over an open space, you can fall, as per the standard Jump rules.

Avoid People/Objects
You can Tumble around an obstacle, as if you were trying to move around an opponent in a football game, or you can attempt to Tumble through their space. Avoiding anything smaller than small-sized does not reduce your speed.

Turn Corners
When you Sprint, you have a limited ability to turn corners (as opposed to a Run, in which you can't turn corners at all). Reckon the angles based on whatever is closest. [Use the Balance skill for this.]
 
Uneven Ground
Anything other than flat, relatively solid ground can also slow you down. Pavement or firm grass do not slow you, but mud/muddy grass, sand, or rocks do. Uneven Ground is not the same as Difficult Terrain, which simply halves your movement.

Run
[General]
You are fleet of foot.
Benefit: When you perform a Run action, you multiply your speed by 5 instead of 4 (or 4 instead of 3, if you're carrying a heavy load or wearing heavy armour). If you make a Jump check with a running start (either taking a move action, Sprinting, or Running), then you get a +4 to any Jump checks you make as part of that movement. While you Run, you retain your Dexterity bonus to your Defence score. When you Sprint, you increase your speed by double your Dexterity modifier.
Normal: When you Run, you move four times your speed (three times if you're carrying a heavy load or wearing heavy armour) and you lose your Dexterity bonus to Defence. When you Sprint, you increase your speed by a number of feet equal to your Dexterity modifier.

« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 02:17:03 AM by Orion »

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: Chase Rules
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2008, 09:29:16 AM »
It makes sense from a real-world perspective. What about the description for Running? I know you can't turn while you Run, but I can't find the text that says so.
Looking at Run in the SRD, it states (emphasis mine):
Quote from: SRD
Run

You can run as a full-round action. (If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step.) When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line

I don't have my PHB handy, but it's right at the beginning of Run in the SRD, under Full round actions.


Sprinting
When you Sprint, you temporarily increase your movement to your Base Speed plus your Dexterity modifier, and you do not lose your Dexterity/ Dodge bonuses to your Defence score.
Would this allow for speeds that are not divisible by five?  For example: if your Dex is 16 and you sprint, is your speed 33 or does it round one way or the other?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Orion

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Re: Chase Rules
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2008, 04:13:09 PM »
Thank you. I was looking in "movement." I should have looked in combat under "actions."

Now, as for Sprint speed, yeah, that will make for speeds not divisible by 5. Dang. I hadn't thought that through. Well, the increase was a little less than I wanted anyway. How about "1 square" per +3 to Dex or something like that? That way, a 16 or more gets an extra square, but you have to get up to 22 for two squares. That could work.

Does the rest of it appeal? I realise it's very different than what anyone else suggested, but it seemed to solve a lot of problems to just have a different kind of move action.

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: Chase Rules
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2008, 04:33:12 PM »
Well, a few more questions:

How does turning a corner work specifically?

Can you use Balance to get over rough terrain more quickly?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

SiggyDevil

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Magmar, the ultimate butthead
    • Feybook Project
Re: Chase Rules
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2008, 06:21:29 PM »
Well, a few more questions:

How does turning a corner work specifically?

Take a penalty to speed for that turn, get a bonus to any kind of "lose your opponent" chance and bonus to Hide for that turn.


Can you use Balance to get over rough terrain more quickly?

This shouldn't be a roll; ranks in Balance + DEX mod would reduce terrain movement penalty by an equal amount.

I'll think of a turn-by-turn example for the "gradiated chase" concept I'm thinking of but not right now. Finals, presentation, etc.

Orion

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 432
Re: Chase Rules
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2008, 08:02:33 PM »
I should have pointed this out; there's a .csv file attached (the universal format for spreadsheets). Just aim your preferred spreadsheet editor at it, and it should come up as a table with DCs and consequences of failing those DCs. For example, to make a 90-degree turn at Sprinting speed requires a Tumble (Balance) check DC 20. If you fail, you lose 10 ft. of movement. If you fail by 10 or more, you fall prone.

I'm totally willing to change these numbers. I just tossed them down for the sake of discussion.