New to epic - some things unclear

[ChristopherGroves]

Never played epic, some things are unclear to me.

Let's say you're a Monk 1 / Druid 19 ... At 21 can you take Druid 20 and get the Druid 20 class features, or do you use the Druid epic progression?  I *think* you get the listed class features, but not sure.

Is the deal that unless you've capped the class you get the nominal class features but if it gives bonus feats, they are non-epic?

Like let's say my next level was Fighter 1 ... I would get a fighter bonus feat ... but not an epic feat right?  That's the value of the epic progressions, correct?  You get epic feats instead of class features?

I know there isn't an epic progression for 5 level classes ... but can you take them?  Could my monk 1 / druid 19 take Hierophant at 21-25?  Or some other PrC if I really wanted the PrC ability?  A DFA going into Heir of Siberys, say?  They would get the normal class features, but no extra epic feats ... right?

[DavidWL]

You don't use epic progressions of existing classes until you max out the "normal" levels.

All feats gained when epic are epic feats ... but you still have to follow the rules of the feat, so if they confine you to a certain list of feats, you must pick from that list (in the fighter example).  However, were the prestige class to grant an arbitrary feat, then you could take an epic feat with it.

You can take 5-level classes - they just don't have epic progressions.

Example:
Fighter 20/Monk 2/Human Paragon 3/Wizard 5/Jordain Vizier/Fighter +4
Completely legal progression, the bonus feat from the human paragon is epic, and any feat you qualify for.  The bonus item creation or metamagic feat from wizard 5 is epic, and any item creation feat or metamagic feat you qualify for.  The bonus feats from fighter 22 and 24 likewise.

Best,
David

[anomalousman]

When taking pre-epic levels you don't get the normal base attack bonus or save bonus, however.  These follow a standard progression for all epic levels.

[ChristopherGroves]

So something like Spirit Shaman 8 / Moonspeaker 12 could go Hierophant afterwards, snagging 2 epic metamagic feats.  It could only take 5 levels of Hierophant.

And it couldn't take "Epic Spirit Shaman" because it hasn't finished Spirit Shaman.  If it takes a 9th level, it gets the benefit of Spirit Shaman 9.  If, however, there was an epic progressoin for Moonspeaker (which there isn't) then that would progress.

Epic Dragon Disciple could, then, snag bonus spell slots from your expanded epic spells right?  You could get epic spellcasting + expanded spell knowledge or whatever to get a 10th level spot, then snag Dragon Disciple to get a 2nd?  I'm not suggesting that is strong or anything, I'm just wondering if that is how it works.  Better yet, something like Wonderworker, yada yada.  

Further ... Hulking Hurler or Survivor in epic (nominally +0 BAB classes) would still get the epic attack and save bonuses ... but all the features of the other classes.

[DavidWL]

ChristopherGroves - you are right on all counts.  Congrats

[anomalousman]

Good work.  And a final point to note is that in 3.5 epic, spellcasting flies so far past broken that the only reason that the shards of the game are not blue-shifted out of optical wavelengths is that they're so far away now that they're red-shifted back.

[PhaedrusXY]

Dragon Disciple would not get you extra Epic spells per day. I'm not sure if you were saying that or not, but it won't. It could get you 10th level spell slots, but you don't cast Epic spells from spell slots.

[ChristopherGroves]

No Phaedrus ... I understand that ... those are limited by knowledge ranks.  But it could, say, snag me another 10th level spot.

Cosmic Descryer + Holy Word looks painful.

Other than custom epic spells, any good epic suggestions?

[EjoThims]

Other than custom epic spells, any good epic suggestions?

Either drop epic spellcasting altogether or don't ever let anyone play anything but a 3/4+ caster. Not only does the divide between spellcasters and non keep growing in epic, it grows faster and faster the higher you climb.

[ChristopherGroves]

Seems to switch to being ENTIRELY spellcraft DC based, right? 

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Seems to switch to being ENTIRELY spellcraft DC based, right? 

More like how many epic spells you can get away with that increase your spellcraft based.

Or how many followers you have from leadership based.

[ChristopherGroves]

Right.  That 10 minute or 4-day ritual with your 30 some-odd followers and you take a bit of eensie weensie damage ... making your DC and costs low.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Right.  That 10 minute or 4-day ritual with your 30 some-odd followers and you take a bit of eensie weensie damage ... making your DC and costs low.

More like 300 or so followers.

[ChristopherGroves]

Hahah right