Author Topic: MinMax in the Dark Ages  (Read 3927 times)

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Straw_Man

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MinMax in the Dark Ages
« on: November 28, 2008, 09:29:30 PM »

  Way back when there was just Dungeons & Dragons: Elf was a class, Fighters rocked and many other marvels did abound. But such things as losing Con to make magic items, THACO and multiclassing required the system to be updated and the matter has been left in the dust of time.

  Till now! The only GM in my area wants to run a 1E game. Has anyone played it? Is it possible to optimise in that system? Any information will be an advance on what I presently know, so all comments will be appreciated.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

jameswilliamogle

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2008, 10:09:42 PM »
Yes, it is very possible to optimize in AD&D (if this is what you mean); many people call this 1E, but there were even more primitive systems than that back in the day.  Let me know what system you are using exactly, as I know AD&D very well, but not the system before that (sometimes called Basic DnD), nor the Chainmail system before that.

OK, I'm bored, so here's some random tips for AD&D:
1.  If you have a 15 Dex, you can do TWF (Dagger or Hand Axe only) w/ little penalty (DMG p. 8-0)
2.  If you have access to Oriental Adventures, play a Monk for long-term maximum damage capability (there's a martial arts combination that gains a ton of attacks per round and tons of damage)
3.  Don't forget that the DMG has a secondary profession table to pick up something.
4.  If you get the luck to roll an 18 Str, by all means you should play a race that gets a +1 bonus to Str w/ a maximum of 19 or greater: the difference between an 18 and a 19 is HUGE - expect to be in melee frequently!
5.  The Dart has the most damage per round: you get 3 attacks at d3 each.
6.  If you have access to Unearthed Arcana, Weapon Specialization is awesome (and see 5 above; you can make that 5 attacks per round, if I remember right: I don't have Unearthed Arcana anymore).
7.  Unearthed Arcana: There is an alternate rolling method in the back that turns normal characters into super-beings; ask your DM.
8.  Druids were fairly powerful in 1e.  Clerics were OK in 1e (more of a necessary evil).  Magic-Users and Illusionists... well, they kind of blow until much higher level.
9.  If you play w/ the speed factors for weapons, you might want to stick w/ smaller weapons.
10.  Thieves take the least amount of XP to level.
11.  XP is dolled out to the one that deals the killing blow (and see 10).

The Assasin class is my favorite AD&D class.  Its almost as fast to level up in as a Thief, but you get some really cool auto-kill abilities, too.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 10:39:24 PM by jameswilliamogle »

juton

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2008, 10:23:08 PM »
I've played one game of 1E, it was a lot of fun, it is a lot simpler than 3.5 or even 4e. It's possible to optimize anything but keep in mind that in 1E death can come quickly, very quickly. I know that with some lucky rolls Dwarves can get a massive amount of HP at level 3 (my 3rd level human fighter had 17hp, one dwarf character had over 40).

In the game I played in magic healing was harder to come by, and each character had less spells in general so in the lower levels you will definitely need 1 or more fighter types. There is not a lot of choice involved with making a character, I'd start off with an even number of Fighters and Clerics with a Rogue thrown in, once natural selection has played it's part over the next few levels you can bring in a Wizard.

Straw_Man

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2008, 03:06:00 PM »

  No control over party numbers but I will assume that the party knows what its doing. Also not sure how much material will be allowed, the offer came up during a MANA meeting and I decided to bone up before actually getting there (onsite character build).

  What I can use now - If Str 18 go melee with a str enhancing race. Dex 15 is good for TWF. Darts rock. AD&D Druids are the closest to GOD. Kill things (? might be errataed by GM common sense) and when multiclassing Thieves are a good choice.

  Thankee kindly sirs, and fu for you JWO.  :)
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

ChristopherGroves

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2008, 04:42:22 PM »
Demihumans can multi-class.

Humans can dual-class.

In the long run, dual-class is much, much stronger.  Pay attention to the XP tables when you do (heading thief last is mighty fun)

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2008, 05:53:19 PM »
Go for a bard.  If you can pull it off...
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jameswilliamogle

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2008, 07:46:47 PM »
Demihumans can multi-class.

Humans can dual-class.

In the long run, dual-class is much, much stronger.  Pay attention to the XP tables when you do (heading thief last is mighty fun)
When multiclassing, the Assasin/Cleric is a strong choice - you have 2 low-XP cost classes.  If this is a one-shot, though, to get the most "oomph" for your character, the half-elf Cleric / Magic-User / Fighter or Thief is pretty cool.

ChristopherGroves

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2008, 08:43:11 PM »
Half-elfs can multi ... and the cleric/mage is pretty tough (as is fighter/cleric/mage) ... and they don't tend to lag behind too much.

I'm still a big fan of the humans in the long run ... again depends on the length / placement of the campaign.  Remember that multiclassing was race-restricted until what .. 3e?  Also check to see if the DM is running the level limits on characters by race.


And yeah ... "Bard" in 1e is roughly the equivalent of a foch. lyrist in 3.x ... a true super-threat if you can achieve it.

Thinblade

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2008, 10:41:22 PM »
I actually disagree on the dual/multi-class. I like multi-class more, especially if you're mixing fighter with something else. It hurts to start, but further along you can get a lot of return for a couple of levels. Granted, this is 2e, but I once had a dwarven fighter/psionicist who I think was 11/12 for the same XP as a fighter 14. And he was so much deadlier than he would have been as a pure fighter.

ChristopherGroves

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2008, 10:46:31 PM »
It depends on the XP count, etc. of where the game sits.

Either way, the tend to be a level of two behind and have many of the benefits.

InnaBinder

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2008, 11:41:02 PM »
If building a Human Magic-User, your survivability will be greatly enhanced by taking your 1st level as Fighter and then dual-classing out.  Low level Magic Users were extra squishy in AD&D, and had very few decent offensive options until level 2-3.
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ChristopherGroves

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2008, 12:04:24 AM »
Greatly.

The trick is to look at the XP curve of each class.  I don't remember what they all were, but there are some natural breakpoints where some classes level fast, others slow.  Good planning may lead you to something like fighter 4-6 THEN magic user ... because fighter 7 is an order of magnitude more experience, etc.

Ah, those were the days.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2008, 12:46:02 AM »
Not only that, but at Fighter 3 (4?) you can get Double Specialization w/ a weapon (like dart :D; look in Unearthed Arcana).

Some really wicked Magic-User spells in 1e...
Sleep (you auto-kill sleeping creatures)
Ray of Enfeeblement (25% reduction in ALL Str-based stuff... damage... to hit... AND it goes up)
Mirror Image (no surprise there)
Web (has an AUTOKILL CHANCE!!!)
Fireball / Lightening Bolt (totally ROCKS in 1e)
Haste (doubles attack)
Charm Monster (weekly duration)
Polymorph Other (avoid Poly self - the Con problems w/ it are pretty severe)

I don't want to go into a lot of the others, as I'm sleepy.  zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Thinblade

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2008, 02:22:30 PM »
1e/2e were the days of awesome fireballs and lightning bolts. For the latter, be aware that the rules for bolts interacting with walls are different than in 3e. Here, when the bolt hits a wall, it does one of two things: if the wall is weak enough, the bolt blasts through and continues unhindered. But if it can't blast through it rebounds. Especially fun in dungeon crawls when you can bounce it off multiple walls, zapping the same enemies three or four times with the same spell. Also, be aware that the bolt doesn't have to start at your hands, like in 3e.

It's an amazing spell. Say hello to the "chunky salsa" effect.

Straw_Man

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 07:57:58 PM »

  5d6.takeHighest(3)=13, 5d6.takeHighest(3)=17, 5d6.takeHighest(3)=15, 5d6.takeHighest(3)=18, 5d6.takeHighest(3)=12, 5d6.takeHighest(3)=14, 5d6.takeHighest(3)=12

  So thats Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 14, Comeliness(?!) 12

  Can's switch around stats so I'm stuck with it till this character dies. Dont have the Wis for a Monk, not sure about doing a Druid for the same reason. Don't thave the patience to dual class so humans out. Thinking of a NE Half Elf Fighter/Magic-User/Assasin that 2WP with handaxes or darts. Charm & Enlarge for spells.

  Is the Fighter worth it? Any further advice or tips?

P.S. Character is psionic  :D (if the GM lets me) : 1d100+5=103
Psionic Strength: 1d100+10=85
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

jameswilliamogle

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2009, 09:39:00 PM »
Whoa, 1e psionics... nice!

I'd shoot for a Magic-User / Thief multiclass...  I don't remember... I think half-elves can do that.

Use the rules for TWF in the DMG that I mentioned earlier - 2 attacks per round will rock.

Fighter is awesome in 1e, but your stats call for something else (though stat-dependence on classes is not as amplified in 1e).

Loke

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2009, 01:08:14 PM »
If I remember right the quiver of ehlonna from those days cloned any arrow you put in it....so if you get a quiver of ehlonna and put one of each arrow of <> slaying in it, you could basically kill every opponent with one attack....every time.....

Bit over the top for normal play I'd say tho :)

Chemus

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2009, 04:42:20 PM »
Fighter's pretty good, but you also qualify for ranger...oh wait nemmind you're going NE. Ranger nets you a little (late) spellcasting (Druid and Mage I think) and TWF and bonus damage vs. Giant-Class opponents (list is in PHB/DMG IIRC). BUT you gotta be goodly.
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Caelic

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2009, 04:53:46 PM »
Fundamentals of First Edition Multiclassing:

1. Dual-Classing is king.  Certain classes (like fighter) are incredibly front-loaded; a level of fighter gets you the potential for exceptional strength, the fighter's Constitution bonus (only fighters can get more than 2 bonus HP/level,) weapon specialization, and the ability to use fighter-only magic items at essentially no cost.  (The fact that experience advancement is geometric means that the experience it takes to get to second level as fighter is completely inconsequential in the long run.)

2. The bard is broken.  Very, VERY broken.  If you have the stats, and the DM is allowing it, go for it.  You start as a fighter (picking up double specialization in your weapon of choice.)  You progress to thief and pick up some thief abilities.  You then become a bard, and the brokenness really starts.  A bard has all of the abilities of a druid his level, PLUS his own bardic abilities.  A bard will also have more hit points than ANY other class, because of the way hit points work in first edition (you only get hit dice and Con bonus up to about 9th level, and then a small fixed number of HP at every succeeding level.  A bard gets a whole NEW set of hit dice-producing levels, so he winds up with about 15-20 hit dice to everyone else's 9.

3. The Rod of Flailing is the most broken weapon in the game; it effectively doubles your number of attacks per round.

4. Chromatic Orb is the most broken spell in the game; it's a first level spell that scales with level.  At level 12, it causes death on a failed save and paralysis on a successfull save--game over either way.

5. Fireball is actually dangerous in first edition.  Lower hit points plus no damage cap makes the spell much more formidable.

6. Multiclassing can be fun, but if the campaign's going to high levels, stick to a human (or a demihuman thief.)

7. Shields are actually worthwhile in first edition.

More as I think of them.


jameswilliamogle

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Re: MinMax in the Dark Ages
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2009, 06:12:46 PM »
Is Oriental Adventures open?