Author Topic: Going up against gods - kind of  (Read 12108 times)

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Agita

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Going up against gods - kind of
« on: November 28, 2008, 07:12:05 PM »
Okay... so I signed up for something crazy. I'll be playing in a PbP campaign on Gleemax set in modern-day earth (or rather, in 2012), which starts at level 1 and hopes to go as far as possible. Now here's the crazy: Every PC, and a good number of antagonists, starts at Divine Rank 0, with all associated abilities. At every five levels (5th, 10th, 15th, etc.), one gains another divine rank, and the Salient Ability that goes with it. There are more house rules (a ton of them, in fact), but this is by far the most important. For a full listing, see here. Note that it isn't said anywhere that the PCs have to work together. They come "from any background, any walk of life, even any age, from child to elderly." They might not even know each other (is how I'm interpreting this). Taking over the world seems like a good objective. >_>

Now, how do you optimize against opponents that are immune to tons of stuff and have insane SR?
The first concept that came to mind was a Warlock... then I realized that the Warlock signature ability Eldritch Blast allows SR, and deities are immune to almost all of it abilities that don't.
Aniother idea I had was somehow becoming higher level than the others, thus eventually having a higher divine rank. This would allow me to bypass most of the lesser gods' immunities. For example, one could Dominate one of them into giving one a divine rank. This would require getting through their SR, but SpC is allowed, so Assay Spell Resistance is available. Item Familiar could work. Sadly, LA counts towards the levels at which you gain ranks (for example, a half-dragon Barbarian 7 would have two, since he's ECL 10), so my initial hope of overcoming NPCs who are stupid enough to take high-LA templates is shattered.
Meleers seem like they might have the least trouble getting to other gods at low levels, but ToB isn't in. Maybe a Barbarian would be a good option?
IotSV also comes to mind. IIRC, its veils don't offer Spell Resistance.

Regarding Salient Divine Abilities, reaching 29 Cha asap seems like a must for Alter Reality. However, this being PbP, the campaign is liable to die before that, so I don't know if it's feasible to actively work towards it.

Another consideration that Nox_Noctis suggested is to somehow (Charm Person/Suggestion on a large scale, maybe?) get the government to issue a kind of Registration Act against the divine ones (while, of course, pretending to be normal oneself), as was done in various instances in Marvel comics. Could be fun.

Pretty much just fishing for ideas for now. What do you guys think?
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woodenbandman

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2008, 07:18:34 PM »
Be a factotum. You can ignore spell resistance at any time :D. Starting at level whatever it is, you can just spend an inspiration point and ignore their spell resistance.

Agita

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2008, 07:21:15 PM »
Be a factotum. You can ignore spell resistance at any time :D. Starting at level whatever it is, you can just spend an inspiration point and ignore their spell resistance.
=/ Factotum isn't part of the allowed material, sadly. See also the link I provided. Looking back, maybe I shouldn't have hidden it in the text.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1118333

For easier reference: [spoiler]
Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior
Deities & Demigods (as updated in the Divine section of the SRD)
Epic SRD
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Libris Mortis
Manual of the Planes
Monster Manual 2
Monster Manual 3
Races of Eberron
Rules Compendium
Savage Species
Spell Compendium
Unearthed Arcana
D20 Modern (for equipment and other modern options, run it by me first)
[/spoiler]
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2008, 10:23:47 PM »
Wow... that sounds crazy, and fun. I like some of his house rules, also. I'd definitely consider some cha based character (caster?), seeing how alot of the SDAs are keyed off cha and have high cha prereqs.

These look good and have easy prereqs (still looking):
Automatic Metamagic, Alter Size (this one could be crazy...), Divine Air Mastery (perfect flight all the time), Divine Blast (no SR, crazy range and insane damage at the lower levels), Divine Fast Healing, Divine Shield.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 10:35:27 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Agita

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2008, 10:26:05 PM »
Yeah, I was just looking through salients and found that too. Note that you don't even have to know the feat.
DMM Cleric, eat your heart out. I am Persist's new best friend.

Quote

This is also kind of awesome. Note that it's not mind-affecting, so you can use it on deities. Free divine ranks for everyone (Well, for me, anyway)! The DC kind of blows, but it's at will, so you can just keep going (from hiding, preferably) until they fail. Too bad gods don't auto-fail starting at rank 1.

EDIT: Does anyone know if there are Cha-based casters that use the Cleric or Druid list other than Favored Soul? With that, I could get Automatic etamagic to apply Persist to pretty much all my awesome buffs, and still get the jummy Cha synergies. Persisted Lesser Vigor should work for fulfilling Divine Fast Healing's Prereqs. Giving up a 1st-level slot for Fast Healing 22+ seems like a good trade to me.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 09:25:52 AM by Agita »
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Agita

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2008, 12:51:06 PM »
So, after looking through the Salient Abilities, I've made a sort of "wishlist" of abilities that are one or more of a) easy to qualify for, b) awesome, or c) so awesome they're worth working towards regardless of requirements.

Alter Form - At first I thought this was free Polymorph, but it doesn't grant AC or ability scores. The Fly speed is nice, but see Air Mastery.
Alter Reality - 'Nuff said.
Alter Size - No reqs, Free Action, be as big or small as you like. Pretty cool.
Automatic Metamagic - This just screams "Optimigasm."
Avatar - Can you use this to give yourself infinite Divine Ranks (by having your avatars designate you as their proxy)?
Battlesense - Pretty nice.
Call Creatures - I see potential for abuse, although the HD cap is annoying.
Command Plants - Eh. Ok, I guess.
Control Creatures - I win. See below.
Divine Air Mastery - 200 ft. fly speed (perfect). The bonuses are kinda nice, but pretty situational. The "Air Sense" doesn't specify to what extent you can sense the creatures (like Blindsense? Like Blindsight? Better or worse than either?), and it has limited range.
Divine Armor Mastery - Could be useful with Mithral Full Plate, if I somehow get my fingers on it.
Divine Blast - Aside from the humorous mental image (The ray can look, sound, smell, and feel like anything), the ability to destroy prismatic walls and walls of force is pretty handy. The range is good, but the damage is rather crappy. I guess if I'm going for Alter Reality, I could take it since I'll have the prereq anyway.
Divine Earth Mastery - Looks pretty cool.
Divine Fast Healing - The req can be achieved with a Persisted Lesser Vigor (via Automatic Metamagic) per day.
Divine Fire Mastery - Most of the stuff it gives is kinda meh, but the ability to duplicate any [fire] spell sounds pretty nice.
Divine Inspiration - Could be nifty.
Divine Water Mastery - For completeness. I like the others better.
Extra Domain - More SLAs!
Gift of Life - Could be handy if humanity is dying out. Looking at it again, it doesn't specify what kind of creature it has to be, so I could use it on my divine buddies.
Grow Creature - Fun, if only for the Attack of the 50 Foot Whatever aspect.
Hand of Death - It's an at-will SoD vs. DC You-will-fail-this. Pity it's only vs. mortals. Even if they get a nat 20, they might die anyway.
Increased Spell Resistance - Exactly What It Says On The Tin. We already get pretty obscene SR though.
Instant Counterspell - I don't know if a counterspelling build would be viable. :-\
Know Death - Should be called Shinigami Eyes.
Know Sectrets - Might come in handy. I don't know why they keep putting saves on stuff that's at will anyway.
Lay Quest - Works only on mortals, but it's a freakin' Geas.
Life and Death - A prereq for Mass Life and Death.
Mass life and Death - Depopulation/Repopulation at will. Pretty much every creature on earth is within one mile of another creature. The divine rank req makes this unlikely, but it's just too cool.
Possess Mortal - Dominate on crack.
Power of Luck - Allround buff/debuff. The penalties are a little small compared to level of play, but affect a load of stuff.
Power of Nature - Can duplicate an 8th level spell at level 5. The rest is swell.
Power of Truth - Ok, I guess.
Rejuvenation - Neat stuff. The "can be killed by deities of equal or higher rank" clause is a bit of a let-down, though.
Shapechange - It's Polymorph. At will. As an (ex) ability.
Shift Form - See above.
Sunder and Disjoin - How to Be a Prick.
Supreme Initiative - Always go first.
True Shapechange - Hooah.


On Command Creatures:
The obvious route is to choose "Human" or "Humanoid (Human)" as the kind of creature to control. Most of the other gods start out as humans, so they could be targeted with it. Then there's the other 6.5 billion humans on earth. If the DM vetoes this, as he's likely to do, I could narrow it down to "Gods" or "Beings with a divine rank of 1 or higher". There's a lot less of them around, ad they're the main target I'm going for. I'd need to find a single god that's a lower divine rank than me to bypass their immunity to compulsions (removal of the mind-affecting descriptor doesn't remove the compulsion subschool, does it? Someone proving me wrong on this would be nice), and I've got myself a divine bitch. If they have divine rank 1, I can force them to designate me as their proxy and give me their divine rank. Then I can dominate the other deities that are ower rank than me and have each give me a rank. And so on, and so forth. Salient Abilities always bypass SR, so that's not a problem either.
If the DM doesn't allow that either, I can instead narrow my choice down to "politicians" or "rich lobbyists". World domination ftw.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 06:16:32 PM by Agita »
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2008, 05:15:04 PM »
DvR zero, is all about the immunities, and what synergies with them.

DvR one, is all about the Spell-likes from the Domains. Choose wisely.
The game should descend into rules arguing at this point.
Provided he's gonna use personal fast-nerf rules (ouch and random),
I'd pick safely broken stuff, like a domain with polymorph, or better polymorph any object.
Time stop with time stop again (and again) , prolly gets the nerf bat.
It's more about DM psychology than anything.

Agita

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2008, 05:28:08 PM »
DvR zero, is all about the immunities, and what synergies with them.

DvR one, is all about the Spell-likes from the Domains. Choose wisely.
The game should descend into rules arguing at this point.
Provided he's gonna use personal fast-nerf rules (ouch and random),
I'd pick safely broken stuff, like a domain with polymorph, or better polymorph any object.
Time stop with time stop again (and again) , prolly gets the nerf bat.
It's more about DM psychology than anything.

I disagree. It's not about the immunities, It's about how I overcome them. If I optimize for getting around immunities and the other gods don't, I have the upper hand, no?
As for SLAs, the DM wisely limited their acquisition. Once again, I recommend reading the thread. Not everything is in the OP. ;)

Quote from: crazy_monkey1956
I'll be staggering that ability a bit.  A Divine Rank 1 character will be able to spontaneously cast level 0 and level 1 spells, a Divine Rank 3 will be able to spontaneously cast level 2 spells, and so on.  The same applies to spell-like abilities from domains.

That means 9th level SLAs won't be available till Divine Rank 17, or Level 85. It was recommended that the SLAs come a bit sooner, with 9th at 45 or so, but the DM hasn't yet reacted to that.
So Polymorph won't be available until DR 7, or level 35. By then I'll already be able to Persist Shapechange.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2008, 11:22:17 PM »
2012? Classy. The end of the Mayan calendar. ;)

I'd definitely suggest Automatic Metamagic as your first. Your best bets are Persistant for Gish(obviously) or Twin/Quicken Spell for any other type of caster. Quicken has better versatility, but Twin drains your spell slots slower so there's a matter of preference.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Agita

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2008, 11:26:14 PM »
2012? Classy. The end of the Mayan calendar. ;)
Yeah, that's kind of the premise.

I'd definitely suggest Automatic Metamagic as your first. Your best bets are Persistant for Gish(obviously) or Twin/Quicken Spell for any other type of caster. Quicken has better versatility, but Twin drains your spell slots slower so there's a matter of preference.
I was thinking of going with Control Creatures first, actually... if I can control another deity and force them to give me their divine rank, I'll automatically get another Salient, after all.
If the DM vetoes that (likely), of course, then AMM it is.
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Ubernoob

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2008, 12:15:10 AM »
Command Creatures>Alter size>Gift of life (immortal armies)>Divine Fast healing (just get into warshaper somehow)


Ideally you'll turn the world against the other deities.  You don't need to be good at killing them yourself.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2008, 12:50:35 AM »
Since he's not letting rangers choose Humans as their favored enemies, I really doubt he's going to let you use Call/Command Creatures on humans, either (or deities...).
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

DavidWL

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2008, 06:06:58 AM »
Some random thoughts:

no magic items => creating them is a very valuable ability
- however, you don't want to give up XP!
- at level 5, people get their first salient divine ability, as well as the ability to "craft"
- this is incentive to play an artificer

complete adventurer => chameleon (+floating feat, boosts to attributes, etc.)
Cleric mechanic spontaneous domain casting = awesome.  Get thee some extra domains
- gotta love the spell domain!  Anyspell and greater anyspell ...
race change -> take it and get the free human feat
   -> at a minimum, changling at 2nd level
   
Deities and Demigods / Epic SRD
   Spell-Like Abilities -> anyspell / anyspell greater (once again)
   how does the grant spells / spontaneous casting abilties work?  What can you grant?
   The familiar ability of dieties is sorta cool

Complete Psion
   - Is the "Spell to Power" option for the Erudite allowed?  Awesome if so
   - The "Improved Overchannel" feat is pretty awesome ... HP are nothing
   - look at the feat progression of the epic slayer: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/ei/ei20030110a

Note that there are really 4 different games
   - levels 1-4   Class levels + Quasi-Diety (Divine Rank 0)
   - levels 5-20    Class levels + Demi-God (Divine Rank 1-4)
   - levels 21-29    Epic class levels + Demi-God (Divine rank  5)
   - levels 30+ you are epic and Lesser God (Divine rank 6+)
I'd Optimize for each, with emphasis on the first ones.

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Agita

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2008, 07:01:59 AM »
Command Creatures>Alter size>Gift of life (immortal armies)>Divine Fast healing (just get into warshaper somehow)


Ideally you'll turn the world against the other deities.  You don't need to be good at killing them yourself.
True. Might be a bonus though - y'know, just in case they get uppity.

Since he's not letting rangers choose Humans as their favored enemies, I really doubt he's going to let you use Call/Command Creatures on humans, either (or deities...).
I'm aware of that. Even so, though, I'm pretty sure not all deities will advance at the same rate. When I'm rank 2, there will probably be some deity somewhere that hasn't reached 2 yet - and is thus vulnerable to my dominate. Command Creatures is still nice, tough, since I can probably narrow it down to, say, "politicians" or so.

no magic items => creating them is a very valuable ability
- however, you don't want to give up XP!
- at level 5, people get their first salient divine ability, as well as the ability to "craft"
- this is incentive to play an artificer
Problem: I don't see ECS in the list of allowed sources. Dunno why he doesn't have it if he has RoE.

complete adventurer => chameleon (+floating feat, boosts to attributes, etc.)
Cleric mechanic spontaneous domain casting = awesome.  Get thee some extra domains
- gotta love the spell domain!  Anyspell and greater anyspell ...
race change -> take it and get the free human feat
   -> at a minimum, changling at 2nd level
Chameleon is in RoD, not CAdv.
I'm not sure what you mean with the race change. Everyone starts out as humans, so I get the free feat anyway. I don't think it stays if I change my race.
   
Deities and Demigods / Epic SRD
   Spell-Like Abilities -> anyspell / anyspell greater (once again)
   how does the grant spells / spontaneous casting abilties work?  What can you grant?
   The familiar ability of dieties is sorta cool
I've already explained the SLA progression, and it's kind of unfavorable. 0- and 1st-level SLAs at DR 1, 2nd at 3, 3rd at 5, etc.

Complete Psion
   - Is the "Spell to Power" option for the Erudite allowed?  Awesome if so
   - The "Improved Overchannel" feat is pretty awesome ... HP are nothing
   - look at the feat progression of the epic slayer: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/ei/ei20030110a
I'm not sure where you got the CP idea. It pretty explicitly isn't allowed.

Note that there are really 4 different games
   - levels 1-4   Class levels + Quasi-Diety (Divine Rank 0)
   - levels 5-20    Class levels + Demi-God (Divine Rank 1-4)
   - levels 21-29    Epic class levels + Demi-God (Divine rank  5)
   - levels 30+ you are awesome
I'd Optimize for each, with emphasis on the first ones.
Fixed that for you. ;)
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skydragonknight

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2008, 10:48:58 AM »
I take it you're using d20 Modern weapons and armor?
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Agita

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2008, 10:52:19 AM »
I take it you're using d20 Modern weapons and armor?
Most likely. I'm pretty sure we're free to run around wielding greatswords and full plate, but that might a) look silly and b) not be overly effective if everyone has ranged weapons that do as much damage as said greatsword.

EDIT: Guns and stuff do have the problem that they require a separate feat.
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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2008, 04:09:06 PM »
Agita, for that original idea you had (warlock), there's a feat in the Monster Manual called Supernatural Transformation.  It turns spell-like abilities into supernatural ones, which aren't subject to Spell Resistance.  Take it for what it's worth.

Agita

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2008, 04:16:41 PM »
Are you sure it's in the MM? I can't seem to find it under Monster Feats and Skills. It's not on crystalkeep either.
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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2008, 06:31:46 PM »
Are you sure it's in the MM? I can't seem to find it under Monster Feats and Skills. It's not on crystalkeep either.
Savage species iirc
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Agita

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Re: Going up against gods - kind of
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2008, 06:41:53 PM »
Are you sure it's in the MM? I can't seem to find it under Monster Feats and Skills. It's not on crystalkeep either.
Savage species iirc
Ah yes, found it. Nice.
The next problem with Warlock is that it's not a casting class, and thus wouldn't gain the benefit of spontaneously casting every spell you can grant. :-\

New idea: A texan rancher with massive amounts of cows. Check out the Stampede ability. >_>
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